Posting from mobile so I'm not going to witter but I'm sure ye've seen the (nonsense) articles. My opinion is obvious, what's yours?
Printable View
Posting from mobile so I'm not going to witter but I'm sure ye've seen the (nonsense) articles. My opinion is obvious, what's yours?
Postal voting within the confines of the state aside, I think that if you spend the majority of your time abroad and you don't have direct economic/financial ties to the state, then you shouldn't be able to vote on how it operates and who operates it, as it really doesn't affect you, but your vote can affect those who still live here. As for letting the x number of gombeens with Irish passports vote? Why do this? Maybe, just maybe, for the Presidency, but for the election of a Dáil that is to run the country? Completely stupid idea. They aren't affected by the operation of the state. Maybe they should be reminded that they might consider themselves part of the Irish nation, and that's fair enough, but the state is a completely different entity.
not even sure why this is an issue. Makes no sense to me mostly for the reasons outlined by ShantyKelly.
I'm currently living abroad while on a career break so in tat way I slightly disagree with Shantykelly, as the choices made will certainly affect me, my pay, conditions etc. I'd imagine a lot of people living abroad atm, mostly because of the lack of jobs at home, are hoping to return. The choice of government and their decisions will impact greatly on peoples ability to return.
That said when you leave the country I think you do it knowing you won't be able to vote and you need to trust those back home to do the best for the country, which will ultimately help you. That trust is difficult when you have a population who happily re-elected fianna fail last time though
Until a little over a month ago, I was abroad on a 1 year contract. If I hadn't gotten a job over here, I'd still be doing that. I'd be watching this election fully anticipating having to put up with the outcome on my return here and would most certainly have wanted to vote in it. I can certainly empathise with people who have moved abroad for work wanting to vote, and any suggestion that it doesn't affect them is rubbish - the government's economic policies can have an enormous impact on whether or not they will ever get to move home. That's a massive problem for such people, more serious than whether Dahamsta has to pay an extra quid for a tank of petrol (though, granted, less important than economic and social policy for the unemployed and poor, and healthcare policy for everyone).
That said, there are also those who have effectively settled down in another country, and will probably never return. They've no business voting here.
fair point on the career break thingy, cos im going on one in march. but what criteria do you apply? Im definitely coming back for a while, but may go again (flights are paid for and all). I worked with fellas who have gone, with the intention of coming home after a year, and they're still living abroad.
I agree wholeheartedly with voting overseas - though not diaspora voting with it's negative connotations and results. I saw it in person in Croatia, where the country was dragged into war by corrupt leaders and the type of moron who fights with other morons at the Australian Open - because their grandparents told them stories that they'd been told by their grandparents.
Caveats can be held firm so that it is a positive and progressive experience - plus the voting numbers will not be as big as we would all think. I for one have complained about the lack of voting rights for those of us who have to work most of the time overseas yet I pay my taxes in full through the Irish system, have direct debits to 3 local charities and assist Irish business for outward and inward activities. So why shouldn't I vote? What right does some 18 year old who was drummed out of school at 16 and has spent 2 years taking money from my tax payments?
Simple rules:
You've spent half of your life in Ireland.
You've contributed for more than 5 years to the Irish tax system.
You've maintained an Irish passport and been back to Ireland for a minimum of 1 month per year in the preceding 3 years (to the election).
No way should you get the vote just because you're an Irish citizen - imagine the further mayhem if the headers in NORAD had such a chance. And there is no need for a seat in the Dail for Irish overseas. Senate spots can be tempered for this.
Haven't seen the articles, but will try and look them up. However, if you don't live in the state, you shouldn't have a vote (including tax exiles, if they retain their vote). Pretty much as shantykelly outlines. I wouldn't be opposed to some limited senate representation (1 or 2 seats) for non resident Irish Citizens. Comparisons with other countries that allow it isn't really valid as they don't have the potential swing that could happen here.
Not sure it's legally correct, but surely if you're on a short term contract and you're still on the register of electors, you could come back and vote?
I was removed from the register. I've no idea why - my family disavows any contact with electoral officials. Were that not the case, yes, but I'm not sure the €1200 return flight would have been worth it, given I was working in a country where that was a (rather generous) month's wages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
and soon will again!Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
When I moved, I asked for my name to be taken from the register. I strongly think that tax & social welfare should be connected to the vote. I have a great interest in the electoral affairs of state, but I neither live there nor pay take there, nor am registered for social welfare there. I am neither a beneficiary, nor a contributor to the state, and therefore should not be eligible, no matter how many visits or how long I stay there, nor how much money I remit to family. While the affairs of state have generally caused me constant embarrassment for the past few years, that is not trauma enough to entitle me to a vote - I shan't be seeking one if this bluster were ever to come to pass.
Plus, I would probably not be eligible, as a non FF voter.
Sorry to point out the elephant in the room, but where would us Nordies fit into this. A vote in presidential elections was hinted at at the time of the GFA but we're still waiting.
I would also like to see Northern MPs who choose to attend being allowed the right to sit and speak in the Dail. Voting is certainly a trickier issue. It would not fair to allow them to vote unless in circumstances where a decision would have an impact on the North. I don't think it would be right for my representatives to have a say on imposing a tax on people living in the state for example, but then something like NAMA had a huge impact on the 6 counties (The state is now the biggest landlord in the North. Admittedly it hasn't cost me a penny in taxes, but who knows, perhaps the votes of Deputies Adams, McGuinness, Durkan et al could have prevented the maddest policy in years coming to fruition!)
NAMA is a ropey enough example, but it is the one that springs to mind right now. Hypothetical situations, e.g entering a war, I would be much more keen to have a say on.
I don't think a one size fits all model of extending the franchise to all diaspora in all situations would be fair, but I don't think the current system is any better. I do think that wherever they live, Irish people who would choose to go to the effort of voting should be allowed a say in who the President is, or on changes to the constitution of the country they could well return to. The limits to the power of the president, and the role of the Dáil in amending the constitution would prevent that franchise being exploited by the NORAID brigade.
Yet in elections to the Dáil, the *******ised principal of 'No Representation without Taxation' sounds fair enough. I would certainly like us northerners to have our voice heard, but I can see why voting has to be limited to the representatives of those living in the state.
I like this idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
I have no strong feelings on it either way, but I think it's difficult to put together a list of reasons why people living abroad shouldn't be allowed to vote that wouldn't also exclude some people living in Ireland also, unless the only reason is 'must be living in Ireland'.
Bennocelt, I think a voice in the Senate would be sufficient to keep folks on board - from the North I mean. The reason I say this, unless people resident there pay taxes or spend most of their time in the South, would be because of objections from Unionists and the UK government (it would open a can of worms in the EU too). You'd have little mini-me Paisley demanding a seat in the Dail too, while young apprentices in the city and county of Dublin would be running far and fast from Irascible Iris. You'd have Basques in the South of France wanting seats in the Spanish Parliament, Dutch in Belgium, well you get the drift. I mentioned Croatia in an earlier post and the mess they made of the state with diaspora voting - they also let Croats in Bosnia vote in national elections and have seats in the Croatian parliament. Because of the utter lack of lack there (in Bosnia) there were instances of hundreds of votes for the HDZ candidate, which meant that the dead rose and voted in large numbers - not too distant from DeV's Ireland.
A voice(s) in the Senate would be a start, and at least the Unionists would be represented by the members from Trinners (orange s...no, shouldn't I have to let that go). But it would be a start and not scare the arms of British security into falsifying more "dissident" attacks to keep their budgets up.
The Seanad would be a start, but if you think few people in the south really understand what the Seanad is for, that ignorance of it is nothing on the North. I'm a bit of a politico, and even I have no idea why Ireland has a Senate, other than that we copied the Brits system of government in 1922, but we didn't want any mention of 'Lords' in the title. I get the feeling a vote for the President would be much more popular amongst Northerners. It also helps that the current President is, unsurprisingly, very popular in the North.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
It also has the added advantage that there is no way the unionists could object without coming across as sectarian bigots, given that there have been polling stations set up in Belfast for both American and Polish Presidential elections in recent years without any objections.
But living in, and having to suffer the Government elected is a pretty big reason imo!Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Matt Cooper had the fella that wrote the Irish Times article on this - the non resident citizens amounts to 3.5 million, more than the residential electorate. How could it possible be fair to give them equal status to residents?
His only defence was that most "probably" wouldn't bother voting! Even having an overseas consituency could have a major impact, given how important one or two independents have been.
Friend of mine from school that lad funnily enough, Peter Geoghegan. I don't agree with his argument either for what it's worth. Part of the sacrifice you make when emigrating I feel and as pointed out it's just not practical given the number of people it could be applied to.
BacktoWalsall you mean:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Anyway Im in the Uk and will be looking for a postal vote, why not, I'm not exactly here out of choice but because of the state of the FF run country I left behind?
As has been pointed out several times, you don't have to pay taxes over here. You pay your taxes in Ireland and you can vote all you want fella.
I’m in two minds about this. On one hand, I would like to see citizens resident overseas (not passport holders born overseas) given some voting rights. We bleat on enough about how important our citizens overseas are, and how we should be tapping into everything they offer the oul’ sod – experience, contacts and money mainly – but don’t give them much in return. On the other hand, I don’t see how we could put something acceptable into place that gives them meaningful votes, without diluting institutions here.
Logistics first: let’s face it, local authorities have enough problems maintaining an accurate electoral register of people actually living here, without adding another – what did Macy cite? – 3.5m names to the list. Who handles that register? Secondly, do we offer postal voting, or make overseas citizens traipse en masse to the closest embassy/diplomatic mission? Thirdly, what constituencies would voters vote in: a new, national constituency, or the last one in which the voter was resident before emigrating?
Then there’s the type of election. Would there be interest in council elections? There’s little enough interest domestically. I don’t like the idea of votes for the Dáil. For me, taxation and representation go hand in hand. A Seanad vote doesn’t get around this, since the Seanad also debates that legislation. And why should overseas citizens have the right to vote for an institution that most resident citizens are not allowed to? Referenda affect the citizen’s rights when domiciled here, so why should anybody overseas have a say?
Presidential and EU elections offer some prospects. Neither returns candidates with any real power, unfortunately. But both have representational roles that are more internationally focussed than domestic, and the 13 MEPs could be configured into one national STV or list constituency.
In all of these, there is the problem that distance distorts understanding of issues. That said, if overseas votes lessened the plague of clientelism and brokerage and gombeenism I’d be all for it.
Finally, and the worst argument against it, but one the Dept of Finance will trot out (and invariably uses as its trump card for everything): it will make elections and votes far too expensive. Sadly, that's the winning line in this debate.
But Im sure as an Irish citizen I am entitled to have a voice in the running of the country?Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Jesus how many people in Ireland pay tax anyway - if that's your criteria?
Not many out of the tax net now bennocelt, plus even if you're out of the income tax net if you're resident you pay indirect taxes. However, I still think residence is the issue - you are simply not nearly effected by Government policy (not simply economic policy) if you are not resident in the state.
I personally think the number of residents who don't get a vote is a bigger issue (only Irish and UK citizens resident in the state get a general election vote). Surely they're more deserving than citizens abroad who may only qualify through previous generations?
Not until you start paying taxes here again, no.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Ever hear of VAT?Quote:
Jesus how many people in Ireland pay tax anyway - if that's your criteria?
Because we may plan to be domiciled in the state in the future. Indeed, in the case of the North, 'It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland'. Any changes to the constitution will effect us if and when that comes to pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
I certainly have, and fuel duty and alcohol duty, and road tolls. Still don't think it justifies us getting a vote in elections to the Dáil, but I do think the south should set up a booth on the bridge at Strabane, so I can get my rebate on the way back into the NorthQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
But I do - its a postal vote:DQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Jesus Dahamsta please, thats like something I might hear from a FM104 talkshow:o
i live in derry, and do a fair amount of border hopping. i do contribute (in a small way) to the irish economy, but not compared to the contribution i make to the british exchequer. unless i move over the border and am directly affected by and contribute substantially (from a personal perspective) to the economy of the state, i dont see that i really have any right to ask for a say in how its run. i dont avail of its social services or its health system, i dont shop there on a daily basis, any social contributions are made in my home town (in the north), so i cant even claim to contribute to the state socially and culturally.
i think some folks are confusing the irish state and the irish nation, two very different things.
oh, and i really dont want a presidential vote. im not taking the blame for the likes of bertie bluff becoming head of the state, youse can hang on that one yourself (if and when it happens - lets face it, its not a remote possibility).
And when you do, you can vote. See how that works? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
I don't really know what you mean by that, but I'm guessing I could channel Father Ted in response:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
"Funny how you get more right wing as you get older."
And equally, citizens overseas may have no plans to return. Or their plans may be shelved. Or they may have good intentions, never acted on (The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley" and all that...)Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
And until those hypothetical constitutional changes come to pass, I doff my cap to Shantykelly for a perceptive point about differentiating between the state and the nation...
What do you mean hypothetical? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
I think it's an honourable idea to consider the diaspora in elections.
In Spain the overseas constituency have seats in the parliament and they can only vote for people who are based overseas to sit in Madrid.
In Britain you can register to vote for up to 15 years after you move abroad for General and European elections only.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governme...ions/DG_073241
I think that there is merit in this discussion and I think that a serious consideration should be given to proposals such as this to modernise our political system.
AS was pointed out to me by an Irish friend in Sweden, she can't vote in an Irish general election in Sweden but if she was to become a Swedish citizen [(or any Swedish citizen) for that matter] can vote in Swedish elections in Ireland! Straight away this discrepancy is clearly unfair. I'm sure I can apply the same logic to American, Polish and other citizens who can avail of their right whilst resident abroad. Right being the operative word.
We should consider this in line with opening the franchise to the other Irish citizens on this island who do not have a say in their nation. This being a can of worms issue with no doubt a cyclical argument ready to be debated.
BonnieShels, i think there are pros and cons for both sides. I would disagree with it, mainly because unless i spend the majority of my time resident in the state, or even based abroad and pay taxes at home, i don't think its entirely right for my choices to affect someone else when they are going to have a reduced influence on me. the whole career break thing is a tricky one, and something i had never really considered until i decided to take one and go abroad for a while myself. but i have largely resigned myself to the fact that i am removing myself from my community, even if it is only for a year, and have to accept the disadvantages that come from that. that and the logistics of the matter outweigh, for me, the feasibility of extending the franchise beyond current residents of the state. what constituency would i be situated in, living in derry. donegal north east? bit unfair on the inishowen residents to wipe out their voice by the sudden addition of 50-60000 adults in the city alone. and what decisions or representation could a deputy carry out on my behalf or provide me with? legally im resident in another state.
the state is the current political machine of the majority of the irish people, but it is not the irish people. the state can be reformed, altered, corrupted, torn down, built up a whole lot easier than the irish nation can. the state is a collection of laws and regulations, organisations and political parties. the nation is (to me anyway) our shared history and culture, our common ability to laugh at anyone and anything no matter what the situation, a willingness to never give up, and all the other guff that bord failte trot out every so often. it may be embarrassing, but it is what we as a people are. that pale imitation of westminster that sits in leinster house isn't.
im not that annoyed that i don have a say in electing the dail, at least i cant be blamed for fianna fail.
Actually Dahamsta you were correct I dont have a postal vote - I mistakenly thought that all Citizens were entitled to one abroad (like the yanks have). Silly me as I wanted to give Mammy Rourke my number one - damn it:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
But is it a fair comparison - we've more Irish Citizens abroad than who are resident? Can the same be said of your examples? Also, your friend would be able to vote in Swedish elections in Ireland, but not Irish elections in Ireland, as things stand!Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Nope, 'fraid not.
People on holiday abroad should have a postal vote though, as long as it's implemented securely. People have to book ridiculously far in advance these days, to fit with employers and so they don't pay crazy prices.
And I doff my cap to the very topical Burns quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
But the examples Shantykelly gave are in the grant of the Dáil. Thats why there should be no vote in Dail elections to those living outside the state.
But it isn't fair that someone could leave the country for a couple of years, and come back to find constitutional neutrality had been abandoned, without ever being given a say.
Which raises another question, do soldiers get a vote if they are in Lebanon or somewhere like that?
It's perfectly fair. If you want a say in how the country is run, stay in the country and make a contribution to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Yes. Somebody quoted and linked the relevant legislation earlier in the thread.Quote:
Which raises another question, do soldiers get a vote if they are in Lebanon or somewhere like that?
i honestly feel like i have given up my right to a say on the affairs of the country. That said, i dont feel particularly bothered about having much of a say in Canadian federal, provincial and municipal affairs either. I am comforted by the fact that there is an opportunity for my offspring to have a say in the country in the future should we ever relocate or should they ever move there. Ireland will be a huge part of their lives.
How do you feel about somebody who is working abroad for an Irish company and, while they pay their personal tax in the country they're living in, the job they're doing provides taxes from the company for the Irish revenue service?Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
The same. The employee is not the company.
Even though the company may be contributing more tax by getting foreign contracts and sending workers abroad than they would by not doing so?
I think people can contribute to a country in ways other than personal taxes, and such a member of the company, as well as aiding the company's (and consequently Ireland's) increased revenue, through demonstrating their own ability and that of their company, is in a small way advertising Ireland and its businesses in such a way that might see more foreign contracts granted to Irish companies in the future.
Similarly, people who work for agencies such as Tourism Ireland in a foreign office, and who work to promote Ireland as a tourist destination, are, in my view, definitely contributing to the country, albeit not through personal tax.