Will Labour be found out in a general election??

Nobody, themselves included, is quite sure what they believe in.

They ran an absolute buffon of a man in the by election.

Recent moves heading into an election have included walking over the local organisation in Kerry to run an ex Anglo banker Spring in a piece of slieveenism that would make Fianna Fail proud and now the rumoured courting of Davy Fitz to run in Clare.

Just what the dail needs, another GAA publican with a shortage of grey matter.

Thanks to the likes of Vlad the terrible we all have a fair idea that Fine Gael are evil but will Labours flakiness and really quite horrifying selection choices ensure that the Gilmore Gale is just a gust of hot air??

Discuss the issues. :)

Well I thought labour did an amazing u turn in the Lisbon treaty - "respecting the will of the people" and all that guff, so can they be trusted?

Gilmore is lacking in substance, but given a credible alternative is hardly likely to emerge before the election, we'll be getting a FG-Labour coalition (unless Inda REALLY implodes).

I'm not hugely impressed by what I see, but when compared with FF, Labour look like Aung Sang Sun Kyi, MLK & Gandhi rolled into one.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

...I'm not hugely impressed by what I see, but when compared with FF, Labour look like Aung Sang Sun Kyi...

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They seem to have spent the last couple of decades doing nothing of note? ;)

The combined, Labour and FG opposition could not win the absolute banker bet of parliamentary votes of confidence this country has ever seen, against a tiny majority coalition government with an unintelligible overweight slob as leader and EU Banker agent-provocateur as Finance Minister, who both presided over a babble of elected buffoons that constitute the bulk of the FF parl party, who all combined - directed the most self-destructive economic policy (over a period of two years) the western world has ever seen done by a sovereign republic in peacetime.

I don't rate Labour and would not be surprised in the least if they repeatedly shot themselves in the foot in this upcoming election campaign.

It's very sad that we have to reach so far for any confidence at all in the opposition in light of the gross incompetence of the incumbents.

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Originally Posted by geysir

The combined, Labour and FG opposition could not win the absolute banker bet of parliamentary votes of confidence this country has ever seen,.

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What do you expecty them to do, magic up TDs? Or magic up a clue for the Jackie Healys and Michael lowrys of th world? Whatever about their shortcomings, losing parliamentary votes sisn't one of them

The biggest thing in Labours favour in my opinion is that they had the balls to vote against the bank guarantee in the face of massive pressure to back it in the national interest. People can say that Labour lack substance- but on the most disastrous decision in decades they got it right.

Gilmore's relative inaction over the last fortnight has handed some initiative to Sinn Féin and United Left, but the bank deal and the Budget will be the key test of both Opposition parties. What will really hurt Labour is the state of their constituency branches, which will determine the extent of their gains on three levels. Level 1 is Greater Dublin, Wicklow, Wexford, Kildare and Cork city, where the organisation is most developed and they can expect to gain second seats. Level 2 would be old strongholds like both Kerry areas, Tipperary, Louth, Carlow-Kilkenny, with branches that need reform and intense campaigning, but should yield seats key to the final outcome. Finally, the last level involves weak regions, like Donegal, Laois, Mayo and Clare, where there will be no gains, but roots should be laid down for five years time. When FG were on the brink of extinction, this was how Kenny rebuilt them from the ground up, and ultimately, FF will probably be doing the same over the coming decade.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

What do you expecty them to do, magic up TDs? Or magic up a clue for the Jackie Healys and Michael lowrys of th world? Whatever about their shortcomings, losing parliamentary votes sisn't one of them

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You are focussed on the mathematics of a tiny majority being maintained in the Dail.
Given that whole set of circumstances I outlined that evolved in the last 2 years, it is clear evidence of ineptness that neither FG nor Labour could effect a campaign of opposition that had a result of even threatening the tiny parliamentary majority or even a drive a wedge between the coalition partners.
What did I expect them to do? Effect a campaign of intelligent opposition, offer a clear analysis of the situation and offer an alternative strategy on how to deal with it and all in the face of FF insanity. If ever there was a no-brainer for what an opposition could have done and could have achieved, the last 2 years had all the opportunity. They did not even come close to managing that task , instead the Government doddled on for 2 years maintaing their majority, peddling confirmed lie after lie.

I'm not so sure that FG really wanted to get into government in the last two years. Their policy may have been to give FF enough rope and let them hang themselves.

I'd agree to an extent, FG looking after the interests of FG, biding their time. What the country needed was an opposition.

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Originally Posted by geysir

What did I expect them to do? Effect a campaign of intelligent opposition, offer a clear analysis of the situation and offer an alternative strategy on how to deal with it and all in the face of FF insanity. If ever there was a no-brainer for what an opposition could have done and could have achieved, the last 2 years had all the opportunity. They did not even come close to managing that task , instead the Government doddled on for 2 years maintaing their majority, peddling confirmed lie after lie.

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You realise the FG and FF agree on the vast majority of issues? They couldn't oppose the majority of FF motions simply because they would implement the same things themselves.

I think Labour have shown a masterclass in how to work in opposition as the third party. That FG have failed isn't their fault.

If the Dail was simply made up of party politics, then FG and Laboiur might've had an opportunity to drive a wedge (as you say), but as long as FF delivered to the single issue indies, they were never going to lose

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Originally Posted by geysir

What did I expect them to do? Effect a campaign of intelligent opposition, offer a clear analysis of the situation and offer an alternative strategy on how to deal with it and all in the face of FF insanity. If ever there was a no-brainer for what an opposition could have done and could have achieved, the last 2 years had all the opportunity. They did not even come close to managing that task , instead the Government doddled on for 2 years maintaing their majority, peddling confirmed lie after lie.

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FF/Greens had the numbers for all the major votes, the supposed rougue FFers have voted with the Government on all the major issues. The only votes the likes of Matty McGrath and John McGuinness have been flaky on have been pretty much irrelevant matters (stag hunting/ dog breeding for example), which wouldn't have been brought the Government down anyway even if defeated (and remember the criticism when labour switched to try and defeat the Government on stag hunting, to try and force the greens out of Government).

The opposition can't invent votes - FFers always have and always will put party first when push comes to shove.

On the original post, on the most pressing issue that has faced the state, Labour voted the "right way". It'll be very hard for both FF and FG to shake that off. They say they're going to produce an alternative budget, as they did last year. We still haven't seen FF or FG budgets yet, but Labour get all the grief from the INM/ RTE. They clearly have a problem getting the candidates in some areas, although some of those getting stick have put in the groundwork and are even elected Labour councillors.

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Originally Posted by Macy

On the original post, on the most pressing issue that has faced the state, Labour voted the "right way".

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And Sinn Fein. They give out about the 'consensus for cuts' yet they voted for the bill that beggared us.

I think Osarusan has it right, and it's something I mentioned on other threads, FG bottled the chance to get rid of FF at the last election - they could have done all sorts of deals to get them out, but sat on their hands. They knew what was happening, they knew what was to come, and sat back. And this is where they have disgraced themselves, and I have to count Labour in this to a large degree. If they truly wanted to save the country, they could have gotten their people out in the streets, the public opinion was there behind them, and gotten FF out of government, but they didn't. They shamed the country by allowing it be sold off to get a loan so that German, French, UK etc banks can get their money back, with Ireland as collateral. I would have slapped Dudley Edwards less ugly had she been near to me this weekend reading her blinkered crud about how the english care for Ireland so much and want us to recover. NO, they stated it clearly - Ireland is a cash cow for the UK economy, we're the perfect little ex-colony. We're infested with UK stores, products and their most worn out outpost (NI) is supported by cross border shopping and investments. But of course, the english love little Ireland. When they, and our "partners" all wanted to give us support, it was to prop up their own structures, and FF basked in this glow and let it look like we are loved. And scarily, they'll be back in, with Labour as junior partners in 2011.

There is not a hope that a FG led coalition of ABFF could have agreed a programme for Government, never mind formed a stable Government. Only certain mentalist Greens ever believed it was remotely possible, and only then as some kind of backhanded defence of them doing the dirt on their electorate.

To criticise FG for looking out for FG at the last election and over the last 2 years misses the real point. FG and Labour over the years come into power and clean up the mess left by the magic beans planted by FF. Why should they have given up the opportunity to destroy FF once and for all? As an avowed anti-FFer I will welcome the end of this colloquial, crony and above all disgraceful stain on Irish society.
Labour will be a junior partner in the next government. They've already accepted this from the way they have been acting in the last 3 weeks.

Given tomorrow's RedC in the sun, it might be Labour/SF/ULA.... SF 3 points ahead of FF (16% to 13%)

I said that in another thread. That genuinely scares me. I don't think sf will get next to near 22. We will see.

God help us if FG get a majority. Can you imagine?!

Yeah. Even though in some aspects I'm blue. I'd take a purple hue to the next Dáil though to stop the fringes of FG and Labour implementing mental policies.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

God help us if FG get a majority. Can you imagine?!

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Nope. Refuse to. The thought of it would make me vote FF tactically.

I'll end up shooting myself in the head in the polling booth if it get to that

/me imagines dodge in programmatic loop outside polling station

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Headline in the Sindo today about a Labour-SF government after the next election. Funniest bit in the article was the declaration that they could need the support of up to 15 socialist/left-leaning Independents.
Now that's just the sort of Government we need. peppered with Independents looking for this and that for their constituency.
An Olympic sized swimming pool for Dun Laoghaire anyone?

Saw that, the Indo's anti Labour agenda is starting to verge on the desperate at this stage with this preposterous crap.

What's next, "Ghosts of Gerry Ryan and Katy French say don't vote Labour"? Probably good for a pullout section, that one is.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

An Olympic sized swimming pool for Dun Laoghaire anyone?

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Without doubt this will be the priority of left wing independents. :rolleyes:

Agree 100% with Mr A

Was half expecting the prospect of an even scarier big bad wolf being enough for yet another u turn by INM - they've turned more corners the last few years than Lenihan.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Without doubt this will be the priority of left wing independents. :rolleyes:

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One particular left wing prospective independent td has a hard on for the redevelopment of the baths in Dun Laoghaire.
An Olympic swimming pool is fairly humdrum in comparison to the mad plans that are there for them right now.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Was half expecting the prospect of an even scarier big bad wolf being enough for yet another u turn by INM - they've turned more corners the last few years than Lenihan.

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Can't wait for the next poll. How will they phrase them questions?

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Headline in the Sindo today about a Labour-SF government after the next election. Funniest bit in the article was the declaration that they could need the support of up to 15 socialist/left-leaning Independents.
Now that's just the sort of Government we need. peppered with Independents looking for this and that for their constituency.
An Olympic sized swimming pool for Dun Laoghaire anyone?

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The people they refer to as left "independents" aren't independents. It's typical media language used to make out there is no organised left.

The irony of all this is that it's the mainstream party back benchers that do most horse trading on local issues. Not to mention the person I know who voted for Brian Lenihan even though they don't like FF because "it's good to have a minister in your area".