WC 2018 & 2022 Bids

Well we'll know the hosts of the 2018 & 2022 WC's in 5 weeks, who do you think/hope will win out?

For the 2018 bid things seem to be gettin nasty between the Russians & English while Spain/Portugal & Netherlands/Belgium bids seem to be stayin out of the spotlight a bit.
Personally I'd prefer to see the Spanish/Portugese bid win out, even though I wouldn't usually be in favour of joint bids, but I think the Russians will win out.

For 2022 Australia, Japan, Korea Republic, Qatar and the USA have bid. I'd be fairly confident Qatar, Japan & Korea Republic wont be awarded the WC for quite obvious reasons, so that just leaves the US & Australia.
I'd prefer Australia to win this one but I have a feeling that the US will win the bid.

Actually a lot of people think Qatar might get it. They have guaranteed FIFA they will make a shed load of money for them and they have also got about 5 definite votes from Europe in exchange for voting for the Spain/Portugal vote. Despite Qatar been a small country their bid wasnt bad.
Hate the way the English bid always goes on about the home of football and how passionate British football fans are. I remember when they had the euros and most of the grounds were half empty.

I'd like to see it go to Russia or England in 2018 and then go to Australia in 2022.

But I think it will go to Portugal & Spain, and Qatar as there seems to be some sort of deal done there.

I really don't want to see a joint bid win as I don't think they work very well. I also have my doubts about how they will distribute the venues. The Luz and Alvalade stadiums in Lisbon will probably be used as will the Dragao in Porto, but that seems to be all the Portguese venues they've shortlisted. This means already Lisbon is the double venue city (usually World Cup Hosts are only allowed to have one city with two venues e.g. Paris, Joburg) so will they then only use the Bernabeu in Madrid (not the Calderon or new Atletico Stadium) ? And only use the Nou Camp in Barcelona (not the El Prat Espanyol Stadium, which actually seems to have much better views than the Nou Camp) ?

Where will the other venues be ? I'll guess they'll have one in Valencia, but will that new stadium be built ? One in Seville at the Olympic style stadium (one used for Celtic v Porto a few years ago) with the massive running track around it ? I think there are a lot of questions over venues in that bid, and a lot of the peripheral stadiums being mentioned (e.g. Celta Vigo, Anoeta in San Sebastian, Zaragoza) would need massive re-developments, it could be touch and go given the Spanish Economy.

England would be the safe bet, most of the stadiums are ready now, only Nottingham Forest, Bristol and Plymouth need significant work and even then there are other stadiums that could step in if needed (Wolverhampton, Middlesboro, Southampton, Derby etc) - the big issue is rail transport, it's slow and hideously expensive in the UK, but that aside it's a financially safe bid.

Russia by contrast would need significant investment in stadiums, but that shouldnt be too much of a problem as some of the big clubs (Zenit, Lokomotiv, Rubin, Spartak) are already building new stadiums (or in the case of Lokomotiv have already built it) and the Federal Government can easily afford to fit the bill for the rest of the stadium construction. Having the World Cup in Russia would leave a legacy in country of over 140m.

I think the logistics of holding the World Cup in Qatar would be problematic. The size of the country (roughly equivalent to Jamaica, almost half the size of Slovenia) and the fact 10-12 stadiums need to be built (in addition to hotels, airports etc) in such a small location could be problematic. The Qatari goverment have a bottomless pit of money to throw at the bid/event, but I don't know how they could circumvent size/space issues and also heat issues. Temperature highs in June / July are around 41-42°C, this would make Orlando in 1994 look like a crisp winter afternoon, and could be a serious hazard to players training and playing in such heat. At these sorts of temperatures there are signficant risks to fans (dehydration, sunstroke etc) in and around the stadium, I know there are plans to conteract the heat, but is it realistic to do this in a 70,000 seater open air stadium ?

Love the way the English media tried to paint the Qatar/Spain&Portugal voting arrangement in a negative light while completely forgetting to mention that the US pulled out of the 2018 race wihin an hour of England pulling out of the 2022 race.

not sure if the CONCACAF vote will swing it for England but its a start.

My guess is England 2018, USA 2022

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I really don't want to see a joint bid win as I don't think they work very well.


I think the logistics of holding the World Cup in Qatar would be problematic. The size of the country (roughly equivalent to Jamaica, almost half the size of Slovenia) and the fact 10-12 stadiums need to be built (in addition to hotels, airports etc) in such a small location could be problematic. The Qatari goverment have a bottomless pit of money to throw at the bid/event, but I don't know how they could circumvent size/space issues and also heat issues. Temperature highs in June / July are around 41-42°C, this would make Orlando in 1994 look like a crisp winter afternoon, and could be a serious hazard to players training and playing in such heat. At these sorts of temperatures there are signficant risks to fans (dehydration, sunstroke etc) in and around the stadium, I know there are plans to conteract the heat, but is it realistic to do this in a 70,000 seater open air stadium ?

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I thought the Belgium/Holland Euros and Japan/Korea world cup were decent enough and very well run?

Apparently each stadium will have cold air pumped into it, or something technical like that. And they say that their world cup would be the best for the fans since the amount of travel between games would be virtually nil.

Euro 2000 was a bit smaller in terms of scale though, there werent the same number of teams as at a World Cup and most of the countries were a day or so's drive away (exception being Turkey) due to the spread of qualified teams and the central-ish location of Belgium and Holland. Japan & Korea was ok, but the venues were split evenly, the path to the final was locationally rigged (i.e. Korea were to played all their games in Korea, Japan (becoming Turkey) all in Japan) - this meant the hosts were always playing at home (it also meant group winners and runners up from the same group could have met at the semi final stage - usually it's only at the final stage); i.e. we could have met Germany in the semis again had we beaten Spain and then Korea. I'm note sure how this approach would work given Portugal only seem to have 3 out of 10/12 stadiums.

I understand the Qataris are trying to develop some sort of air / solar coolant system, but I have no idea if this will work in an open topped stadium. The differential between the above-stadium air (naturally hot) and the in-stadium air (electronically cooled) will surely mean the cold air will simply drain away. Additionally I'm not sure how the impact of strong sunlight will be minimised. Some games could be played at night or in the afternoon, but even then the sun will be powerfull and also in the group stages they can have 3 kickoff times each day, which would mean a kick off occuring during the hottest, most exposed (in terms of sunlight) part of the day.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/...tionreport.pdf

PDF of the official summary of the bids.

Reading one of the US papers this morning suggested that, thanks to an Asian deal, the Spain / Portugal bid now has 8 votes, requiring 12 to win it. Of course, these deals are often scuppered on the day of the actual vote. Supposedly, all Asian voters will back them but I doubt that will happen, as it is suggested that it is in return for a vote for Qatar. 2018 still looks like being England V Russia, though I would lean towards Spain Portugal myself.

2022 is seen by many as being a straight fight between the US and Qatar. I really thought Australia would be the big challenge to the US, but it seems that they have lost ground. The "Deal" is spoken of here a bit, but what is interesting is the US man at the deciding committee (Blazer?) has recently started spouting big love for Russia and Putin on his blog - this could be making things more interesting. Plus, one of the three Concacaf voters who would be expected to back the US bid is Jack Warner, and his is an interesting approach to such things, generally. Seeing as Hyundai has recently thrown a big deal into FIFA lasting until 2022 (hmmm) there may be more to the South Korean bid too. The US has the advantage of the most available seats of any bid though (nearly 5m).

My preference is for Spain / Portugal and USA (selfish reasons for the latter). My feeling is it will probably be Russia for Europe's WC. 2022 is absolutely up in the air I think. Qatar possibly to shade it (pun intended), but it may be moved elsewhere by 2018...

I despise the way the English media speak abotu the Iberain/Qatar deal, yet simply don't mention that England left the 2022 bidding on the same day that the US left the 2018 bidding. Co-incidence?

To be fair that was a deal between most of the countries that 2018 was going to Europe and 2022 to Asia / North America. Prior to that all contries had pretty much been bidding for both 2022 and 2018, but the reality was if 2018 went to Europe 2022 would definately be outside of Europe, and if 2022 went to say Asia then 2018 was very unlikely to have also been given to Asia. I'm suprised the USA pulled out of 2018 since they would have been unaffected by a bid win for Asia or Europe.

I have a feeling it could be a closed shop between Spain / Portugal and Qatar, though the senior American on the FIFA exec was saying they (exec) need to discuss credit and economic viability of infrastructure for each bidder. Presumably, this could be a problem for Spanish stadiums in need of work (Nou Camp, Mestalla, etc).

It's looks like England have it in the bag.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

It's looks like England have it in the bag.

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Latest informed guess I saw had Iberia, Russia and England neck&neck with Blatter holding the key. Most saying England's presentation was by far the best (Russia to come at 11) but I'd imagine the decision already made

Paper this morning saying Putin wasn't travelling over with the Russian bid? Might be a bit of a blow?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Paper this morning saying Putin wasn't travelling over with the Russian bid? Might be a bit of a blow?

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Well the idea was that him not travelling showed they weren't as confident as previously thought (ie if they knew they'd get it, he'd mae the most of it politically)

The decision has already been made. The presentations and who turns up are just dressing

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Paper this morning saying Putin wasn't travelling over with the Russian bid? Might be a bit of a blow?

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Also, the BBC haven't mentioned it, but I wonder if the Wikileaks documenting Russia's total corruption have turned his attention elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Latest informed guess I saw had Iberia, Russia and England neck&neck with Blatter holding the key.

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Sky Sports have said it's become known over in Zurich that Blatter wants Russia to get it, but if they get voted out first then he wants England

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Originally Posted by Hibs4Ever

Sky Sports have said it's become known over in Zurich that Blatter wants Russia to get it, but if they get voted out first then he wants England

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yeah but it could be that Iberia are on 7, England are on 6, Russia on 6. He picks Russia

Iberia beat russia in next round...

Engrossing stuff; pretty much too close to call.

Russia it is.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

It's looks like England have it in the bag.

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Kiss of death. :bigsmile:

Russia it is then for 2018.

Lol and the ruskies buy it

Now we know why Putin didnt bother going,he knew it was in the bag for them.Surprised they got it to be honest.
When is the 2022 decision being announced?I really hope Aus gets it but i bet the U.S does.

And Qatar for the 2022 World Cup.

Its the New World Order.

Qatar really is a joke. Surely you should have had to at least qualified for the tournament before to get it.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Qatar really is a joke. Surely you should have had to at least qualified for the tournament before to get it.

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I agree, when you look at countries like Slovenia, Jamaica, Trinidad & Tobago, Northern Ireland, UAE, Kuwait, Honduras, Iraq, Wales, El Salvador (twice), New Zealand (twice), Israel, Haiti, Costa Rica, Bolivia, Peru, Morocco, Senegal, Angola, Togo, China, Canada, India, Zaire/CongoDR, Cuba* and Dutch East Indies / Indonesia* - it's not impossible to make it to a World Cup. Qatar having a free pass through qualification means teams with more pedigree from Asia (Korea, Japan, Australia, Iran, etc) will miss out...

No they won't because the Qatar place will be on top of he Asia places, just like South Africa was the first time Africa had 6 participants

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Originally Posted by ifk101

It's looks like England have it in the bag.

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Badminding??

Sceptical about both choices, but their media would have made a successful 'Ingerland' bid unbearable.
Props to Qatar though. Just the heat factor to be overcome!

This is the reason Qatar got 2022http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federa...ple=36377.html

Feel a bit sorry for England. In the current age of tight public finances it'd have made sense for a country that needed minimal infrastructure investment to have been awarded it. It's staggering that they got only one vote other than their own. I don't think England is popular in international governance circles and the EPL in particular has many enemies. Part (most) of me thinks that FIFA just goes for who it fancies most, regardless of merit. November 2009 and all its ancillary issues proved that.

That said however, I was amazed the other day to find out that the Russian top flight only attracts c.£60 million in TV money. The EPL, with c.50% of Russia's population (let's call the EPL the UK league) earns about £2 billion annually. You can see how FIFA views a huge untapped market in Russia, and also in the middle-east.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

No they won't because the Qatar place will be on top of he Asia places, just like South Africa was the first time Africa had 6 participants

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So then it just means a better country from another federation will miss out...

Qatar will not only be the first country to host that has never qualified/attended a world cup before*, but it could also be the first host to exit on 0 points.


*actually I dont know if the Swiss at one prior to hosting it.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Qatar really is a joke. Surely you should have had to at least qualified for the tournament before to get it.

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What has past qualification got to do with being a capable host ? Lets bid the next one Between Northern Ireland , Zaire and Costa Rica. You'd get an interesting bid process then.

I'm a little delighted England didn't win after seeing the bile coming from them today. Talk about a bunch of sore losers. All sorts of tripe questioning the process, and Graham Taylor saying " nothing surprises me anymore with FIFA ?? " ?? wtf ?? Arrogance is putting it mildly.

I'm glad Russia got it - Eastern Europe has never hosted a World cup and it was simply thier turn. Similarly with Qutar, although I thought Australia would have been the correct choice for 2022.

Let's be clear: there should be no issue about Russia having 2018 at all. Massive nation with football as it's most popular sport, It spans two continents and will be the first former eastern bloc nation to host the WC. Plus they still have the communist chip on their shoulders which means they WILL make it a huge event and throw as much money as necessary at it.

Qatar has nothing except money. No tradition, no mass support, not even natural facilities to play the sport. Looking at the proposal, 6 stadiums in Doha & 6 in the rest of the country FIFA's rule of only 1 city can have 2 stadiums seems to have been shelved for some strange reason.....
Still South Africa must be delighted with the shiney new stadiums in Polokwane & Rustenberg built because of the FIFA rules....

Frankly I'm happy Russia got it over England, but it was naive in the extreme to think that England were anywhere close. The arguments of Engerland & US of A that they are all ready to go were immaterial, FIFA don't spend a bean on the stadiums anyway so they don't care who builds them as long as they're ready when they turn up in June 2018/2022. In fact quite the opposite is often the case they will argue that the improvements in infrastructure that will take place in Russia justify the choice, as was the case here in SA. For all the expense and over spends that happened, it can't be argued that the infrastructure here has benefited greatly from the investment.

I fail to see how Qatar was even in the running, unless there are other forces at work....... Australia was the logical choice but I think China are the target nation for 2026 which affected the chances of Japan/Korea and possibly Australia.

That said I picked them both out long before the announcement, FIFA like co-operative governments and both Russia & Qatar can provide very co-operative governments.


Edmundo - The USA were hardly world beaters when they hosted it, same for Japan/Korea & same with South Africa, it's not something I have a problem with.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

Edmundo - The USA were hardly world beaters when they hosted it, same for Japan/Korea & same with South Africa, it's not something I have a problem with.

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The USA still had a degree of pedigree, having been at prior World Cups and even having finished 3rd in a World Cup. Additionally they had won the regional championship (CONCACAF Gold Cup) in 1991 and were runners up in 89 and 93.

Japan qualified for France 98 and additionally had won the Asian Cup in 1992 (and again in 2000), Korea had qualified for World Cups in the 54, then 86, 90, 94, 98and had won the Asian cup twice and been runners up 3 times.

Prior to this years World cup South Africa had qualified for two (98, 02) of a possible four World Cups (others 94, 06) and had won the African Nations Cup in 96, been runners up in 98 and third in 2000.

All these countries were far, far better than Qatar in terms of footballing ability.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Qatar will not only be the first country to host that has never qualified/attended a world cup before*, but it could also be the first host to exit on 0 points.


*actually I dont know if the Swiss at one prior to hosting it.

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Uruguay in 1930 and Italy in 1934 too. :)

Switzerland played in the 1934 World Cup. Technically - and arguably vaguely relevantly - Japan had never qualified for a World Cup when they were given the 2002 competition (they were given hosting rights in May 1996 and qualified for the 98 tournament in late 97). Others will know more obviously, but I think it's been both good and bad for the game since then - good because of the exposure to what was still a developing league, and bad because they're stuck now with massive expensive-to-maintain grounds that they rarely come close to filling.

What odds on Qatar selling a load of passports to half-decent players who can't get a game for another country?

The bile being spewed from the english is actually quite pathetic. Last night the less than respected Rod Liddle said he wasn't disappointed England didn't get it, that he thought Russia were closer to the win, and then went off on a tangent to slag off Russia as being autocratic and that all such bids are being won by countries who didn't respect freedom and democracy. Phil Mitchell chimed in from Spain, which was a surprise, that he was in Russia in 2006 and felt very unsafe on the Moscow metro and that it was a dangerous city and that Spanish clubs hated coming here because of poor hotels, facilities and dangers, and that few Spanish fans would be here for it. Oddly the Chelsea fans who were over 2 years ago, along with c. 1,000 Sevilla fans and three times that number of AC Milan fans, thought the city was pretty cool, not to mention cheap and accessible. It's depressing to listen to Sky at the moment, and as for the print media - in the words of the immortal hypocrite - "get over it".

I think there are issues that are more to the point, stadiums that will not be filled after the World Cup to even 25% capacity (on a good day), a poor spread of venues (none in Asian Russia) and a danger that if Putin falls, the house of cards does too. Still, for anyone who's been to Russia it will be a pleasant return, and while I'd not recommend Mordovia, it's going to be a real festival.

Qatar.....was last there for a day and a half in 2002, a little island of sand with oil under it, and a cracking sports academy and infrastructure. Don't see there being too much problem with the heat, games can be played at late evening, but the difficulty is going to be venues, and what happens after.

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Originally Posted by endabob1

Let's be clear: there should be no issue about Russia having 2018 at all. Massive nation with football as it's most popular sport, It spans two continents and will be the first former eastern bloc nation to host the WC. Plus they still have the communist chip on their shoulders which means they WILL make it a huge event and throw as much money as necessary at it.

Qatar has nothing except money. No tradition, no mass support, not even natural facilities to play the sport. Looking at the proposal, 6 stadiums in Doha & 6 in the rest of the country FIFA's rule of only 1 city can have 2 stadiums seems to have been shelved for some strange reason.....
Still South Africa must be delighted with the shiney new stadiums in Polokwane & Rustenberg built because of the FIFA rules....

Frankly I'm happy Russia got it over England, but it was naive in the extreme to think that England were anywhere close. The arguments of Engerland & US of A that they are all ready to go were immaterial, FIFA don't spend a bean on the stadiums anyway so they don't care who builds them as long as they're ready when they turn up in June 2018/2022. In fact quite the opposite is often the case they will argue that the improvements in infrastructure that will take place in Russia justify the choice, as was the case here in SA. For all the expense and over spends that happened, it can't be argued that the infrastructure here has benefited greatly from the investment.

I fail to see how Qatar was even in the running, unless there are other forces at work....... Australia was the logical choice but I think China are the target nation for 2026 which affected the chances of Japan/Korea and possibly Australia.

That said I picked them both out long before the announcement, FIFA like co-operative governments and both Russia & Qatar can provide very co-operative governments.


Edmundo - The USA were hardly world beaters when they hosted it, same for Japan/Korea & same with South Africa, it's not something I have a problem with.

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Think you answered your own question there Enda, absolute joke that Qatar have been given it. Good article in today's Irish Times/Guardian (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...4682355.html):

For football fans and supporters of cultural and political pluralism the questions also now start. Items high on this agenda are just how enjoyable and expensive the fan experience will be during a month in Qatar’s blistering heat, where the drinking of alcohol in public is a criminal offence. And how a strict Muslim state will negotiate western mores – homosexual behaviour is illegal there, as is kissing in public – and the welcome it will afford Israel, should they qualify. Israel’s citizens, along with most gulf states, are banned from Qatar.

Fifa’s technical report noted: “The fact that the competition is planned in June/July, the two hottest months of the year in this region, has to be considered as a potential health risk for players, officials, the Fifa family and spectators, and requires precautions to be taken.”

Can only hope the fact that it will now be 10 years or so before they vote again means someone will have the balls to stand up and expose FIFA for the corrupt, hypocritical organisation it is.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Qatar.....Don't see there being too much problem with the heat, games can be played at late evening, but the difficulty is going to be venues, and what happens after.

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I think the issue with the heat is the fans during the tournament, not necessarily the games. The grounds will be air-conditioned, which is fair enough (and impressive), but you then have to turn 45,000 fans out into 45 degree heat, to join another load of fans in the Fan Zones, many of whom won't be used to that heat and will probably be trying to get drunk.

The Qatari plan with the grounds I think is to take the top halves off and effectively donate them to other clubs as new grounds? Leave half the capacity for the Qatari league teams.

The Russia/security problems sound very similar to the same points raised about South Africa, which passed off fine. In part, of course, because if anything major happened at the World Cup, that'd be SA tourism dead, so they clamped right down on anything. Same will happen in Russia I'd say.

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Originally Posted by Bluebeard

My preference is for Spain / Portugal and USA (selfish reasons for the latter). My feeling is it will probably be Russia for Europe's WC. 2022 is absolutely up in the air I think. Qatar possibly to shade it (pun intended), but it may be moved elsewhere by 2018...

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Good call!

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think the issue with the heat is the fans during the tournament, not necessarily the games. The grounds will be air-conditioned, which is fair enough (and impressive), but you then have to turn 45,000 fans out into 45 degree heat, to join another load of fans in the Fan Zones, many of whom won't be used to that heat and will probably be trying to get drunk.

The Qatari plan with the grounds I think is to take the top halves off and effectively donate them to other clubs as new grounds? Leave half the capacity for the Qatari league teams.

The Russia/security problems sound very similar to the same points raised about South Africa, which passed off fine. In part, of course, because if anything major happened at the World Cup, that'd be SA tourism dead, so they clamped right down on anything. Same will happen in Russia I'd say.

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Sounds interesting with the Qatari plan, I read the bid assessments for 2018 but not the Qatar one. There are enough sour grapes being produced by the English media that I'm sure their vinegar manufacturers are thrilled! There will be incidents in Russia of robbery, or even some mild assault, but overall it'll be the same as any other tournament. Anyone I know who was in South Africa this summer thought it went off great and enjoyed themselves, though the whole "FIFA ltd" experience might leave you cold, it ruined Germany for me anyway.