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Of course, it's mainly cultural, but are Irish players selling themselves short by sticking to the British leagues? Granted, Harte and Keane didn't do themselves justice in their spells "abroad", but that can be contrasted with Cascarino, Connolly and Dominic Foley in recent times, and players like McGeady, Ireland, Dunne and Doyle could do a creditable job in the major European leagues.
In fairness, Keane didn't get a the best of chances at Inter. The manager who signed him was sacked before the start of the season and the new guy didn't rate him. He would've got a better run under a better manager too so who knows what would have happened there.
I think Dunne and Doyle are better suited to the English leagues but I'd like to see McGeady and Ireland in European leagues. They are both more technical players, though McGeady's lack of pace could hold him back.
The main problems, I feel, are not necessarily playing style, or ability, but things such as the language barrier and lifestyle. Some people have it, some people don't.
Connolluy was afailure in the top league in holland and only did well with excelsior in the 2nd division. The Belgian league, bar two clubs, is lower than the championship in England. Cascarino played most of his football in the French 2nd division too.Quote:
Originally Posted by culloty82
All of that is immaterial btw. Until clubs want the players, its not an issue. And even then they're likely to be payed a lot more in England than anywhere else.
I live in Holland myself. And almost all Dutch people speak English. I dont think theres much of a language barrier overhere.
Maybe in the Southern European countries there would be.
Maybe Wim Koevermans can tip some of the Dutch scouts, and start sending some Irish players overhere at younger age.
You're right. I work in further and higher ed, and the classes students skip most are language classes. We just don't do languages well here. If you don't have a basic understanding of a language it's harder to appreciate culture and social mores, so you're less inclined to make a home in a strange country. Even though a working knowledge of a language can be picked up with tuition and immersion, and most continental clubs will provide/expect players to attend tuition, Irish players are still reluctant to try other leagues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
I'd love to see more young Irish lads in continental leagues. Even if they didn't make it at the the highest level, they'd learn a style of play that emphasises technique rather than the muscular athleticism of English and Scottish football, and could carve out decent careers with mid-ranking/lower clubs. For a lot of the older players now, the guys who are 26+ and within a few years of their peak, it may be too late for them to adapt to a continental way of playing. I think that too many of our players who went to continental leagues went too late, and it did little to help their game: Ian Harte, Kevin Moran, Mick McCarthy, Frank Stapleton, John Byrne, Ashley Grimes.... Players like McGeady, Ireland and Owen Garvan might be better suited to more technical leagues - they're still young enough to learn, too. If they, and other young players, were shown to be able to hack it, it might encourage those leagues to scout Ireland more regularly.
Would it be beneath the dignity of some airtricity league clubs to become nursery clubs for continental teams? It might help a more technical style of play evolve, and broaden the horizons of domestic youth players to try the Bundesliga or Dutch league rather than Barnet or Dunfermline. It's reasonable to assume that the few ex-LoI players capped in recent years would have been good enough to win their caps with continental clubs as well.
It should be beneath any club to become a nursery club for any other club, regardless of where they're fromQuote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Wow you're a snob. "Beneath"? I would argue that any LoI club is "beneath" me because they're of such poor quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
werent Shels a nursery club for Man United a few years back? Dont remember it being of too much of an advantage to Shels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Cork had a link with Leicester too; I think it just meant Leicester got Damien Delaney on the cheap.
LOL that Colbert Report thinks any LoI club is below him personally. And shock as he takes Dodge's non-LoI specific comment and turns it into an LoI comment.
Home Farm and Everton too were another one I think
Indeed, that is exactly the point I'm making. The language barrier and in many cases the 'culture shock' are certainly difficult mental hurdles for anyone to overcome. We often see it with continental players, who though possessing an abundance of ability, find it difficult to 'settle' in places like England.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
We'd need to be producing a prodigious amount of talented individuals (such as places like Brazil) in order for clubs in mainland Europe to begin investing resources into scouting and signing Irish players. It would be interesting, as you say, if another Irish player went to a club in mainland Europe and made a very strong impression. They would need to be of the same calibre of Brady!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Interesting proposition, although, as I've said, any club will inevitably consider the financial implications of taking on such a relationship and for most clubs, I have a feeling that they wouldn't consider it to be worth the expense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
The really obvious one too; thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Why a sudden obsession with the continent?? Those unfortunate enough to be incontinent are people too.
I may be wrong here, so I'm open to correction, but weren't the links between English and LoI clubs mainly based on first options on promising youngsters, and not on sending over three or four youth players for a season's experience? I don't recall Shels, Cork or HFE having any players from Man Utd, Leicester or Everton in their squads during the link-ups.
The cost for a larger club to arrange a nursery arrangement is minimal, surely? They're already paying salaries of the players who go on loan, so it would seem to be mainly admin costs, although I suppose there is the possibility that some clubs receive a fee for being the nursery.
(BTW, Dodge: I don't particularly like the term nursery, which is why I asked about dignity! I would be quite excited if an LoI club were to enter into a meaningful, mutually-beneficial relationship with a continental team that incorporated coach exchanges, player loans and shared expertise, on and off the pitch. Unfortunately, I think their stock is too low for them to be able to negotiate anything more beneficial for now. That said, more games like Pats v Hertha would do much to change that view.)
I don't think we would need to produce another Brady - but God wouldn't it be great!! - or a huge number of talented youngsters for European clubs to take an interest in the LoI. Clubs are pretty quick to spot trends, and a steady increase in Irish players on the continent would attract teams looking to pick up decent players for modest transfer fees. A dozen honest-to-goodness pros plying their trade for mid-ranking leagues and in the Europa League group stages would be enough to gradually whet scouts' interest.
Oh, and Wolfie: it's one of life's great inconsistencies, but despite what the name suggests, the continent produces better dribblers....
well I was a bit slow remembering the name Home Farm Everton :)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
A couple not mentioned above off the top of my head.....
John Aldridge
1989–1991 Real Sociedad 63 Apps 33 goals
or indeed Michael Robinson
1987–1989 Osasuna 61 Apps 12 goals
Stats courtesy of wiki
As far as I know, the Home Farm Everton deal was purely as a sponsor (ie Everton paid a set amount to Home farm who wore Everton colours). As the LOI club was seperate from the Schoolboys, there was no issue about "first dibs"
Some Schoolboy clubs have/had have deals with British clubs and somethimes this involved British coaches coming over for once off sessions etc, but mainly the deals are based on first dibs on the young talent. Shels had this deal with Man U, Cherry Orchard had it with Man City but there were others
As was stated, the LOI isn't strong enough for the top level clubs to allow them to loan players here either.
The over reliance on the British academy system is obviously an issue but as long as Irish football people continue to hold it in such high regard, they will continue to send 100s of kids over every year, hoping they can make the breakthrough into the top league. And until Irish people start investing in Irish football, we'll continue to not offer teemage talents an option.
Its an even bigger issue for lads born in Britain, as they obviousyly have stronger ties there, and are less likely to think about a move abroad
Thanks, Dodge. That clarifies some of what I remembered about those link-ups.
Between the love-fest for English football you mention, and Predator's reference to culture being a barrier, it looks like it could be a long time before we get a continental flavour in our national team and the LoI.
Thanks, too, to anyone here who reminded me of what Irish players did play in European leagues. (One name to add: Gary Waddock at Charleroi. And didn't Liam Miller spend time on loan with a Danish club?) It's quite telling that most of the names mentioned so far had only one or two seasons on the continent, even those who could be considered a success. What are we doing wrong? Why aren't our players more sought after?
Steve Finnan and John O'Shea if we're adding names, by the way.
A few more....
Noel Campbell (Fortuna Cologne)
Alan Campbell (Real Santander)
Liam Buckley (Some belgion club in the 80's)
Mick Walsh (Porto)
John Byrne (le Harvre)
Kevin Moran (Sporting Gijon)
Mick McCarthy (Was it Lyon?)
Phul Babb and Alan Mahon (Sporting Lisbon)
Did Gibson go on loan to Belgium?
Ah there's been tons of individuals. Players who amde their name in the LOI to have played in continental Europe include Laim Buckley (Waregem, Racing Santadar amongst others), Noel Campbell (Fortuna Koln),Alan Campbell (Santandar), Mick Byrne (Den Haag), Tommy Byrne (FC Boom - Belgium - only remember it because of the name)
Royal Antwerp in the Belgian 2nd divisionQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Barry Maguire : FC Utrecht :D
SC Heerenveen were looking at Liam Kearney a few years ago...to bad they didnt sign him.
Cascarino spent a bit of time at Marseille
its not gonna happen there is little demand for irish players beyond the uk
Graham Stack went on loan to Beveren for a season when he was at Arsenal. If I remember correctly he punched a pitch invader/holligan in the face in one of his games there. He was one of the players I wrongly though would make an impression on the international scene after his run in the carling cup with Aresnal about 5 years ago.
Just to add something else to the debate; at the moment, on average, the ratio of money earned to talent is at it's highest in the English leagues.
That is when a player finds his level, be it in the Premiership or League 2, if he was to play at a comparable level in any other country he would earn less money.
There are of course exceptions but in the majority of cases this holds true. This coupled with the language/culture barrier and players growing up supporting British clubs makes it very difficult to convince a young player of the advantages of trying his luck on the Continent.
In fairness to Stack, he had a very very good year with Hibs last year as they finished fourth in the SPL. I honestly think he could play at a higher level, and at age 28 could still figure as a solid squad option for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish_Praha
Personally, I'd have him in the squad ahead of Joe Murphy.