I recall reading once that someone published a history of the Leinster FA. Is my recollection accurate? If so, can anyone advise where I could buy a copy?
Also, has any history of the Munster FA ever been written?
Thanks
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I recall reading once that someone published a history of the Leinster FA. Is my recollection accurate? If so, can anyone advise where I could buy a copy?
Also, has any history of the Munster FA ever been written?
Thanks
It's called 'Leinster Football Association: 100 Years.' Very good paperback A4 book of the history of the game in Leinster. Certainly of interest to Northern fans due to the role of the LFA in the 'split.' It is available http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...sts=t&x=20&y=9 Must warn you not cheap now - £40 - compared to the five punts I paid for it originally.
I've yet to come across anything about the MFA.
Apologies for veering slightly off topic, but in his book "100 Years of Irish Football" (1980), Malcom Brodie reckons that originally the dispute was more an (internecine) attempt by the Leinster FA to wrest power within the IFA from Belfast to Dublin. When this was resisted (and as political events unfolded), it became more secessionist in character, eventually leading to the split.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I would be interested to know whether this was how Briggs and Dodd saw it.
Brodie also notes that at the time of the split, there were only 10 registered football clubs in the whole of the Munster FA.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
By contrast in the North, the Co.Antrim FA alone had 200 clubs.
I recall you bringing up this comparison on a number of occasions before. Such a qualification needs however to be considered in the understanding that football wasn't perceived as a nationalist sport at the time, primarily linked to the role of the GAA. That football's seat of power was held in Belfast and those running the show had an unionist inclination didn't help matters either. However the "low" number of clubs affiliated to the Munster FA in the 1920s in comparison to Co. Antrim doesn't necessarily suggest the sport wasn't popular or that there wasn't an interest in playing the sport but rather reflected the authoritive role held by local GAA heads in stifling the establishment of clubs, especially in rural areas. Indeed even today if you travel through rural Ireland it's quite apparent that the sport kids play is football but that when it comes to organised team sports, the GAA rules the roost.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I don't have the figures to support this, but I'd imagine there was a massive upswing in the number of clubs affiliated to the Munster FA post 1970. As it is, more than 700 clubs are Munster FA members today.
I don't think I possess a book with a more misleading name than this. Outside the 6C, Brodie fails to mention the rest of the country at all after 1922.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I think it's fair to say that the IFA split had nothing to do with partition for two obvious reasons. One, the IFS governments and the subsequent ROI governments never sought to impose partition on any sporting body, something that was certainly done in Germany and Korea. And secondly the dates don't coincide. The IFA split in June 1921. Ireland was formally partitioned in December 1922.
Pardon my ignorance, but who are Briggs and Dodd?
Though I've not actually checked, I thought I had only mentioned it once before (in the context of hypothesising that the origins of the IFA split actually lie in a power-struggle between Belfast and Dublin, rather than a determination in the Free State to break away ab initio)Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Anyhow, my reason for mentioning it again on this thread was to explain to "Blanchflower" that there may not be much formal material on football in Munster in the early days, that's all.
That Irish football's origins were in Belfast, an overwhelmingly Unionist city in the late 19th Century, is hardly surprising; after all, it was a group of Belfast men who introduced the game from contacts in Scotland etc, including forming Ireland's first club (Cliftonville).Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Nor should you jump to conclusions in imagining that the political conflict (Dublin vs Belfast, Unionist vs Nationalist etc) overwhelmingly informed the make-up of the IFA etc. For example, the IFA President at the time of the breakaway was a Derryman, James Wilton. Although he was a notable Unionist politician in his day, Wilton was also relatively liberal and well-respected across community lines. Consequently, Wilton eg adopted a very conciliatory line in trying to prevent/heal the split in the IFA, and was also the leading figure in securing Derry City's entry to the Irish League a decade later.
By contrast, the President of the Football Association of the Irish Free State which refused to rejoin the IFA was a Belfastman and former Cliftonville player, Sir Henry McLaughlin, Knight Commander of the Order of the British Empire ("KBE")!
Very true, no doubt, but the fact that there may have been more general interest in football in Munster in the early 20th Century than is immediately apparent does not negate my point that hardly any of it was formally organised, that's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Given the historical context etc, that is impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I agree it might have been more appropriate for Brodie to have entitled his book "42 Years of Football in Ireland, followed by 58 years of Football in Northern Ireland" (or somesuch), but I imagine the Publishers preferred something a little snappier...Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
"Duh!"Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Of course the IFS and ROI Governments "never sought to impose partition on any sporting body" - they were always solidly and implacably anti-Partitionist, after all...
(Besides, in practical terms, how might they actually have "imposed partition" on eg the IRFU? Instruct them to desist from picking players from Northern Ireland, thereby weakening their team immeasurably and risking seeing them thrown out of the Five Nations Championship?)
Those two dates, taken in isolation, do not contradict what was actually a sequential escalation of events, both political and sporting (as I suspect you know, from your inclusion of the term "formally").Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
For example, whilst Partition was not legally recognised until after the breakaway by the FAIFS, some form of political Partition was known to be inevitable by that date. For example, by the time of the breakaway, the first Dail had already been in existence in Dublin for over two years. Plus the Government of Ireland Act was passed in December 1920 by the UK Parliament, specifically in order to permit Partition. And in the footballing context, Belfast teams had been refusing to play games in Dublin etc due to the War of Independence, which had already been raging for over two years.
Unless you imagine the LFA/FAIFS representatives in 1921 were negotiating with their IFA counterparts in a bubble...
Er, George Briggs and Joe Dodd are the editors of the book "100 Years of L.F.A. Leinster Football Association Centenary Yearbook".Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
You know, the one that you cited in post #2.
The one on your bookshelf that you bought for five punts, in fact...
P.S. If you should ever get round to reading the book which you recommend (shades of Roy Keane and his "Autobiography"?), can you give me a summary of the Editors' take on the reasons behind the breakaway? No hurry, btw.
I have the book somewhere but would take time to dig up.
I do know it is not rare and the authors were stuck with lots of copies and would gladly sell one to anyone who wants one. However I don't
have contact details for either man. Joe moved to Wexford but still drives our underage teams around by bus for games. George was
a former secretary of the Leinster FA and a well known football administrator.
I will ask him next time I see him if he has any for sale and if so they'll be a lot closer to 5 punts than 40.
I don't think the history of the MFA has been written but Plunkett Carter has written a number of books on Cork football which may cover the formation of the MFA.
Welcome to our world! Now you know how we feel when we hear the ROI referred to as Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Ireland was formally partitioned in April 1921, when the Government of Ireland Act came into force, so it did precede the formation of the FAI.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Gspain - I would really appreciate it if you could do that for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
For what it's worth, this is from the constitution down here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanchflower
Quote:
4. The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.
Sorry I thought that Dodd and Briggs were a couple of bowler hatted chums of yours, fresh back from evading breeze blocks. My copy has no author's or authors' names on it, although getting out my magnifying glass I have spotted the pair on page 2 as 'editors'. Inside is a series of chapters of which the one on the split, is by Derek Foley. I can see from the index that Joe Dodd writes three chapters and George Briggs wrote one, which obviously suggests they wrote the chapters by Foley, Brendan McKenna, Matt Giles and Joe O'Leary too. As for a 'summary', you obviously know it all already.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
4. The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
You can call yourselves "The Land of Milk & Honey & Never-Ending EU Subsidy" for all I care.
The simple fact is, the correct title of the FAI's international representative Football teams is "Republic of Ireland", as designated by these people:
http://www.fifa.com/associations/ass...r=m/index.html
Just as IFA teams are properly called "Northern Ireland" (unless we should choose to reassert our right to call ourselves "Ireland" for non-competitive fixtures...)
P.S. When I was younger, your team was often (usually?) called Eire. Personally, I'm quite happy to revert to that, since although it translates as "Ireland", it was worth it for the comedy value of hearing your Anglos like Heighway and Mancini trying to pronounce it properly...
"Ire?" "Airy?" "I-Ree?"
I'm not aware of any of my "chums" possessing a bowler hat - though it is possible I suppose, seeing as I worked in The City for a number of years.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
As for your reference to "breeze blocks", if you think that an attempt by hooded thugs to murder a young woman by dropping concrete on her from the top of a building, followed up by similar assaults on the ambulance crew who went to her aid etc, to be a cause for levity, then I guess that sums you up.
You don't actually need to use a magnifying glass, merely refer yourself back to your own Link in post #2, where a simple Click reveals the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
"100 Years of L.F.A. Leinster Football Association Centenary Yearbook
Briggs, George & Dodd, Joe (eds)"
Does that mean you haven't read it, or that their conclusions corroborate my own speculation?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Blanchflower complained about Ireland being called Ireland. John83 has shown that that's the name of the country, and that he has nothing to really complain about. When it comes to the name of the country, I'll go with the constitiution over FIFA any day of the week. Your post is irrelevant to that debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It's no more correct to refer to the country as Éire as it is to refer to Deutschland or Suomi. You wouldn't use either terms in general (English-language) speak, so why should you use the term Éire?
Can I suggest this argument is dropped before it ruins what was a decent football history thread. Its been done a million times. We all know the name of the country, and we all know the FIFA monikors.
gspain, if that book does become available I'd appreciate a copy too
As I said, I couldn't care less what you call your country.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
And normally I wouldn't care what you called your country's football team, either, except that not only is it incorrect to purport to call it "Ireland", but it is actually offensive in what it implies about my team.
And even then, I could probably live with that, until idiots attempt to assert that the football team may be called "Ireland", because the State calls itself Ireland.
As for my suggestion of "Eire", that was just my attempt to be helpful. Perhaps we could compromise on "Team 33"?
Exactly. A misnomer.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Why should someone from Northern Ireland not have anything to complain about (a) the ROI team being called Ireland, and.or (b) the southern state wrongly calling itself "Ireland"?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Same reason as we use Dáil, Oreiachtas, Taoiseach, TD, i.e. token Gaelic names for things which have English equivalents?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I will update this next time I see and speak with Joe. I normally bump into him at games and possibly even Wexford Youths v Limerick on friday night but
more likely an underage International.
I know there were a lot of unsold copies and will try and track some down.
Much appreciated!
There are copies in Natonal Library Kildare st.Joe Dodds also wrote a book on the Leinster Senior League.
Nearest thing to a history on Munster FA is "Beyond the Picket Fences " a history of the MSL by 2 guys Galvin & Dempsey (?) who were behind the Cork City Programme a few years back.
GSPAN Please add me to the list should copies become availble.
Now this is A LONG SHOT IN THE DARK (and pretty sure the answer is a defined no !) would any one know of a history on the Connact FA ?
Dave Gavin and Gerry Desmond were the people behind that book. Also autheors of the Irish Soccer handbook from the early-mid nineties
Plunkett Carter's "A Century of Cork Soccer Memories" goes back to pre-partition, it's a fabulous book, not easy to find though. £40-60 here:
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Se...ry+cork+soccer
His book "From the Lodge to the Box" is slightly easier to find I think, and covers much of the same ground, but is a subset of the Century book, iirc. I paid about 15 quid for the Lodge/Box book and a fortnight later got a free copy of the Century one!
@gspain, you can add me to the list for the LFA history book if you do get some copies, thanks.
Can we not just settle on "Ireland" and "The Occupied Territories" as official names? ;-) (Please note the winking smilie before going off on one. I'm joking)
Neal Garnham's "Association Football and Society in Pre-partition Ireland" (Ulster Historical Foundatio isbn 1-903688-34-5) gives an exceptional account of the meeting in February 1923 between the IFA delegation led by Captain James Wilton and the FAI led by JF Harrison who chaired both the FAI & LFA.
Bertie O'Mahony compiled an official 75-year history of the MFA, approx 12 years ago.
As for 20 clubs in Munster in the 1920's, cf Brodie, it should be noted that the original MFA collapsed completely in 1914 at the outbreak of WWI.