What happened between Giles and Rovers

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22/11/2009, 7:35 PM
irishultra

What happened between Giles and Rovers

Where did it all go wrong?
22/11/2009, 7:36 PM
thischarmingman

Quote:

Originally Posted by irishultra

Where did it all go wrong?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Who-Stole-Ga...8922185&sr=8-1

It's a good read. :)
22/11/2009, 7:38 PM
irishultra

i was reading a thread on here about this book and its sad to see people saying why is he using such a negative tone...the loi is gonna grow from here :(
22/11/2009, 7:48 PM
Dunny

http://www.srfcultrasforum.com/forum/index.php
22/11/2009, 9:42 PM
MariborKev

Where did it all go wrong?

The pesky infidels failed to roll over and let the Hooperatzi dominate. Even more damning for Giles and Dunphy was that McLaughlin turned up and won three in a row.....
22/11/2009, 10:27 PM
Greenforever

from memory it was simple, they were never able to generate the crowds, no matter how well they did, and the money ran out, if you think its unfashionable today to support a LOI team, it was ten times worse then
22/11/2009, 10:34 PM
irishultra

really? worse than now. in what way?
23/11/2009, 2:43 PM
Tony Soprano

what type of crowds were Rovers getting week in week out during the Giles years ?
23/11/2009, 3:48 PM
LukeO

Was there a touch of the Farrelly/Kenna arrogance/ignorance about the set-up? i.e. a 'pro' who has spent their whole career in England not realising how much work a manager has to do behind the scenes etc. to get it right in this league?
23/11/2009, 3:56 PM
superfrank

That's the impression I got when I saw an interview with Dunphy from that spell. Think it was on Reeling In The Years.
23/11/2009, 9:35 PM
LukeO

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYCTWD

He was the Irish manager and had managed WBA before he took the Rovers job.

I know. :confused:
23/11/2009, 9:50 PM
RiffRaff

What I do remember is that he brought a lot of veteran players back from England with him and continued to pick himself, Treacy and Mulligan for the Ireland squad while they were playing in the LOI. He also brought a number of other Hoops players into the squad - P. O'Leary, O'Neill, Synott (despite them not being the top team in the league at the time)- and it seemed to me that there was a conflict of interests going on.
24/11/2009, 11:54 AM
gustavo

You should probably have read what he said after "to do behind the scenes etc."
24/11/2009, 12:47 PM
Bluebeard

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYCTWD

As opposed to the top flight in England?

What the Bozo was trying to put forward is that Rovers put their faith in a rookie manager like Pats did with Kenna. The reality was they put enough resources into the project to get Giles from WBA. The failure of the project was not Giles's lack of ability or naivety.

I didn't get that at all from him. I presumed he meant that Giles came over thinking it was going to be like managing WBA - then a fairly high rated team with a good deal of resources and a lot less fire fighting.

I think it was a good and foresighted appointment from the Rovers board of the time. Certainly, Giles was not short on vision fopr the league and the club. However, I think that Giles really overestimated his abilities and charisma as a manager, and when it didn't all come together quickly and easily, he quit, presumably egged on by Dunphy, in frustration.

Giles was a great player, but not a great manager at club level.
24/11/2009, 5:31 PM
LukeO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluebeard

I didn't get that at all from him. I presumed he meant that Giles came over thinking it was going to be like managing WBA - then a fairly high rated team with a good deal of resources and a lot less fire fighting.

Exactly.
24/11/2009, 5:36 PM
Mark

There was a famous article in Magill magazine (1979) in which he said he would win the European Cup with Rovers by 1985. I have a photocopy of it from when I did my thesis last year. I'll try and dig it out and scan it and upload
24/11/2009, 6:20 PM
A face

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeO

Was there a touch of the Farrelly/Kenna arrogance/ignorance about the set-up? i.e. a 'pro' who has spent their whole career in England not realising how much work a manager has to do behind the scenes etc. to get it right in this league?

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrank

That's the impression I got when I saw an interview with Dunphy from that spell. Think it was on Reeling In The Years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiffRaff

What I do remember is that he brought a lot of veteran players back from England with him and continued to pick himself, Treacy and Mulligan for the Ireland squad while they were playing in the LOI. He also brought a number of other Hoops players into the squad - P. O'Leary, O'Neill, Synott (despite them not being the top team in the league at the time)- and it seemed to me that there was a conflict of interests going on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluebeard

I didn't get that at all from him. I presumed he meant that Giles came over thinking it was going to be like managing WBA - then a fairly high rated team with a good deal of resources and a lot less fire fighting.

I think it was a good and foresighted appointment from the Rovers board of the time. Certainly, Giles was not short on vision fopr the league and the club. However, I think that Giles really overestimated his abilities and charisma as a manager, and when it didn't all come together quickly and easily, he quit, presumably egged on by Dunphy, in frustration.

Giles was a great player, but not a great manager at club level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

There was a famous article in Magill magazine (1979) in which he said he would win the European Cup with Rovers by 1985. I have a photocopy of it from when I did my thesis last year. I'll try and dig it out and scan it and upload

In a nutshell, he threw the toys out of the pram when the whole league didn't bow down to him and let him win, he was never gonna be good for this league even if he had done better initially. He just didn't realise it wasn't going to be a walk in the park.
25/11/2009, 11:41 AM
peadar1987

Quote:

Originally Posted by A face

In a nutshell, he threw the toys out of the pram when the whole league didn't bow down to him and let him win, he was never gonna be good for this league even if he had done better initially. He just didn't realise it wasn't going to be a walk in the park.

That's exactly the impression I got.

When you hear him make statements like "they didn't want me to succeed", you have to wonder who he's talking about. The Shams board? Why wouldn't they want their own club to succeed? The other clubs? Of course they didn't, that's the whole point of competitive sport!
25/11/2009, 3:42 PM
gspain

Quote:

Originally Posted by BYCTWD

Jesus wept. You have to remember at the time Thurles Town were in the league and Bohs were still amateur. His issue was going down to Newcastlewest and the likes for games and there be no hot water for showers or cattle grazing on the pitch.

He felt that he was bringing top professionals in, creating a serious acadamy and other clubs weren't even cutting the grass on their pitches.

There is a difference between trying to beat a club on the pitch and political machinations to try and stop a club succeding because it shows up your own inadequacies.

Bohs went professional in 1970. Newcastlewest joined the league in 1985 when McLaughlin had already won 2 of his 4 in a row.

There weren't cows grazing on pitches and plenty of other clubs had facilities to match Milltown.

Rovers weren't good enough under Giles. They played pretty football but didn't have any steel. McLaughlin made a huge difference and built arguably the best LoI team ever.
25/11/2009, 3:54 PM
galwayjames

Quote:

Originally Posted by gspain

McLaughlin made a huge difference and built arguably the best LoI team ever.

Shels were better. Rovers were never any good in Europe.
25/11/2009, 8:38 PM
placid casual

:rolleyes:
either you are too young to have seen the 4 in a row side, or else your just Mod Edit:ABUSE REMOVED.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former.
25/11/2009, 8:44 PM
galwayjames

Quote:

Originally Posted by placid casual

:rolleyes:
either you are too young to have seen the 4 in a row side, or else your just a Mod Edit: Abuse Removed.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former.

How else can they be compared? I remember them winning the four in a row but it was a long time ago and the only other way they could be compared is their performances in Europe.
25/11/2009, 11:49 PM
LukeO

Quote:

Originally Posted by galwayjames

How else can they be compared? I remember them winning the four in a row but it was a long time ago and the only other way they could be compared is their performances in Europe.

I don't usually stand up for Hoops, BUT I think he might have a point. For instance, the current Bohs team haven't got beyond one round in Europe but I'm almost certain that if you asked Pat Fenlon, Dave Henderson, Owen Heary, Tony McCarthy or anyone else who has been involved in both set-ups, they would say the Bohs team from 2008 and 2009 is better than any of the teams that Fenlon had at Shels, including the side who got to the 3rd qualifying round of the Champions League. That's not to take away from Fenlon's Shels teams or anything, they were top class and did the league proud in Europe. But success in Europe isn't the be all and end all.

I wasn't around to see Rovers during the eighties, so I'm not qualified to comment, but to say Nutsy's Shels teams were better than them based on European results alone is nonsense.
26/11/2009, 1:22 AM
Dodge

IN fairness Luke, the spine of the team is the same (Heary, Byrne, Crowe). I'd rank that Shels team ahead of Bohs in most individual positions bar keeper.

Oh I think the best LOI team I've seen is the Pats league winning side of 1990, but finances broke it up. I'm not biased either...
26/11/2009, 1:31 AM
robbieos88

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeO

I don't usually stand up for Hoops, BUT I think he might have a point. For instance, the current Bohs team haven't got beyond one round in Europe but I'm almost certain that if you asked Pat Fenlon, Dave Henderson, Owen Heary, Tony McCarthy or anyone else who has been involved in both set-ups, they would say the Bohs team from 2008 and 2009 is better than any of the teams that Fenlon had at Shels, including the side who got to the 3rd qualifying round of the Champions League. That's not to take away from Fenlon's Shels teams or anything, they were top class and did the league proud in Europe. But success in Europe isn't the be all and end all.

I wasn't around to see Rovers during the eighties, so I'm not qualified to comment, but to say Nutsy's Shels teams were better than them based on European results alone is nonsense.

I've thought of this before and I think when comparing teams a lot of people think back to the Shels team that were in the 3rd qualifying round but think of the standards of that squad at this time so most would think Bohs are better whereas if it were reversed then most would think Bohs squad was better.

I can't choose between them. I agree that Europe isn't the be all and end all because as a Pats fan we did very well in Europe the last 2 seasons but never had the consistency or manager to win a league.
26/11/2009, 5:31 PM
roinuj

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Soprano

what type of crowds were Rovers getting week in week out during the Giles years ?

im not sure what the cap of milltown was but i remember been at a rovers v waterford league match in 1984 and the ground was packed to the rafters.
me thinks giles was manager then and alfie was manager of us
26/11/2009, 5:44 PM
Martinho II

Quote:

Originally Posted by roinuj

im not sure what the cap of milltown was but i remember been at a rovers v waterford league match in 1984 and the ground was packed to the rafters.
me thinks giles was manager then and alfie was manager of us

as far as I know roinuj Johnny Giles resigned in 1983 and I have a feeling that it was Jim McLoughlin that was in charge for that game..
26/11/2009, 8:12 PM
roinuj

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinho II

as far as I know roinuj Johnny Giles resigned in 1983 and I have a feeling that it was Jim McLoughlin that was in charge for that game..

your spot on.
that was the same year ucd beat rovers in the cup final.
26/11/2009, 8:59 PM
LukeO

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

IN fairness Luke, the spine of the team is the same (Heary, Byrne, Crowe).

So three players, two of whom started less than half our league games this season (including one who Fenlon believes hasn't done enough to earn a new deal), make up the spine of the team? :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

I'd rank that Shels team ahead of Bohs in most individual positions bar keeper.

Fair enough. I certainly don't!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

I'm not biased either...

Me neither... ;)
27/11/2009, 10:32 AM
EnglishSource

Regarding the European games, the Irish champions had to play real teams in those days. Certainly shels didn't face a team of the quality of the celtic and honved teams that Rovers played until they played Deportivo. The game against the cypriot team was post leaving Milltown so shouldn't be counted as the club was in upheaval at the time. The Linfield result was the only game that Rovers should have been expected to win but didn't at the time.
27/11/2009, 10:56 AM
Straightstory

Drogheda had just won the League Cup in 1984. They paraded the trophy in United Park before a league game against Jim McLoughlin's Rovers team - who proceeded to win 7-0. That was the best LOI side I've seen.
27/11/2009, 11:40 AM
roinuj

Quote:

Originally Posted by Straightstory

Drogheda had just won the League Cup in 1984. They paraded the trophy in United Park before a league game against Jim McLoughlin's Rovers team - who proceeded to win 7-0. That was the best LOI side I've seen.

i think the best rovers side i ever saw was the 1986 one who won the double.
what a side.
infact they were the best league of ireland side i ever saw
27/11/2009, 12:15 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnglishSource

Regarding the European games, the Irish champions had to play real teams in those days. Certainly shels didn't face a team of the quality of the celtic and honved teams that Rovers played until they played Deportivo. The game against the cypriot team was post leaving Milltown so shouldn't be counted as the club was in upheaval at the time. The Linfield result was the only game that Rovers should have been expected to win but didn't at the time.

Exactly, open draw and no preliminary rounds against "new" countries.

Derry drew Benfica in 1989 in the 1st round of the European Cup. An LoI club would need to win four rounds to get to this level nowadays.
27/11/2009, 6:05 PM
Martinho II

Quote:

Originally Posted by roinuj

your spot on.
that was the same year ucd beat rovers in the cup final.

exactly roinuj.. good to see the brain cells are still hangin on!:D
27/11/2009, 6:08 PM
Martinho II

Quote:

Originally Posted by roinuj

i think the best rovers side i ever saw was the 1986 one who won the double.
what a side.
infact they were the best league of ireland side i ever saw

that was exactly the reason I got into the LOI in the mideighties.. I remember around that time listening to rte radio one on shamrock rovers games in milltown under Jim McLoughlin. That was the best all time squad ever and you will never get another team doing four in row in the league like what shamrock rovers did in the eighties..