No comment from me, just thought this should get a thread of it's own.
I do have a question though: when was the last full general strike in Ireland?
adam
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No comment from me, just thought this should get a thread of it's own.
I do have a question though: when was the last full general strike in Ireland?
adam
I see many of the strikers today took the chance to show their patriotism today and solidarity with their bretherin in the private retail sector by shuttling up the north to do their christmas shopping, James Larkin must be spinning in his grave. linky
I'm not sure what I think about the strikes, but I know what I think about those scumbags.
If you're on strike, you should either be manning the picket line, or fired.
Well done to the picketers manning the UCD gate this morning. I spoke to one girl, who doesn't attend or work at UCD, coming in to meet a friend who was told to text her friend and meet her somewhere else and an elderly gentleman with a hip problem who was told to park his car elsewhere and walk in. Other people I know were asked to explain themselves when entering the college to work today. If they expect their right to take industrial action to be respected then they should respect others' right to work or even just move freely.Quote:
Originally Posted by centre mid
What makes you think it wasnt private sector people forced to take a day off work to mind kids taking advantage of a day off?Quote:
Originally Posted by centre mid
Presume they were asked where they worked as they went into shops? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by centre mid
Private sector workers absolutely should strike, to achieve parity with their high rolling public servants. Why is there a race to the bottom?
Private sector workers have to go out and earn money, public sector workers think having money is earned.
I know a lot of public sector workers and don't know a single one with the attitude you describe.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Not sure I understand that statement.Quote:
Private sector workers have to go out and earn money, public sector workers think having money is earned.
I was on the road (working) yesterday and heard Pat Kenny, Joe Duffy and Matt Cooper. The best contributor all day was a teacher from Dublin with 20odd years behind him & who has had private sector experience in France. He made a good argument for property tax or water charges. He didn't shirk the question of more pain being needed to be taken by his peers but resented taking it all. Even Eddie hobbs started to agree with him on some aspects.
Personally I think the strike is ethically wrong, we have thousands in the west of ireland whose land/houses/ businesses are under water and I think it should have been called off in solidarity with our fellow man. As for those may have left pickets and gone shopping up North, they would have gone anyway perhaps next Saturday or the following one or the 8th of dec. The point is that vat was always going to go to HM Customs. It physically wouldn't be possible for employees to all man a gate at the same time. hence the rosta arrangement.
Quote from the article;Quote:
Originally Posted by Splurge
Quote:
Many public-sector workers said they were taking advantage of the national strike to stock up on groceries and goods but were reluctant to be identified.
Just on the thread title, is it fair to call this a general strike? Is it fair to those in the private sector to have it called a general strike?
I hate the thought of another strike day, I hate the fact that we were out yesterday, but really there was little choice. There seems to have been zero progress in negotiations, all we are hearing is pay cut, pay cut, pay cut, amounts ranging from anything up to 15% which would cripple many single income families, or families where both are public servants, lets not forget that over 7% of income has already been hit with the pension levy.
As public servants we are frightened of being victimised if we don't take a stand. Cutting public pay will inevitably lead to a strengthening of the race to the bottom in private sector pay and the vicious circle will continue. Few public servants would argue that we shouldn't make a further contribution but it must be done fairly, the lower paid workers can't be expected to take the same hit as the privileged few in very highly paid positions. Attacking pension benefits across the board without considering the fact that those employed after 1995 already have significantly poorer pensions and many who joined at an older age and have short service won't really benefit from the pensions at all.
There is a vacuum being created in higher-level posts due to early retirement and there are empty posts all over the place, public services are already being hit and will only be hit further if the vicious cuts are allowed to continue. The good conditions enjoyed by public servants should not be envied, but aspired to by those in the private sector, I left a much better paid private sector job to join the Civil Service, solely because it offered job security, study opportunities and pension benefits that my private sector employer refused to give, if Government employees are not given good benefits what hope is there for the private sector?
The public sector must reform and become more efficient, but it is a slow process, there are archaic structures that must be torn down and there is fluidity required, but if conditions and pay are cut, how will qualified, talented people be found to fill these positions? We have witnessed in the past the difficulties in filling public service positions, which leads to poorly qualified and almost unemployable people being hired, simply because nobody else would take the jobs, most of these are being weeded out thanks to the improved pay and the introduction of a competitive aptitude testing and interview process. Front line positions, which could almost be seen as vocations, such as nurses, Gardai, teachers and firemen, will always find willing and capable people, but the vitally important administrative positions are the ones that become hard to fill, and if the administration is rubbish the front line services will suffer.
A fine balance needs to be found that doesn't lead to the public service being destroyed and still allows the Government to make savings. Once the nation begins to recover private sector workers will be rewarded far more quickly than those in the public sector, and a further drain of talented people away from public service will occur unless the currently required savings are found in a reasonable way.
There's a fair few people I'd say who are working in places which were closed for the strike but who, because they weren't unionised themselves, turned up for work only to find the place closed. I'm sure there's some strikers who've left the picket, but I'd say there's a fair few of the other group too. We can't really tell how many are from either group.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Damo
The pickets were done on a rota basis, generally two hour stints. I was on from 10am-12pm and then had the rest of the day to myself. If people didn't do picket duty and were union members they were warned beforehand that they would face expulsion from the union.
Decent post up until this, the "vocations" will not easily find people, who is going to put themselves through university for nursing or teaching to be paid what they could earn by doing a non skilled or job?Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
"Vitally important admin posititons", jesus wept, its the admin positions that are giving us all a bad name. Most ppl dont begrudge the "vocations" what they get paid and want to see a cull on the "Vitally important admin posititons".
You probably have a point but there's a tradition attached to those jobs that tends to attract people, maybe easily was the wrong word.
There's no doubt that the admin positions are badly run and staff are poorly utilised at the moment. It's definitely an area that needs substantial reform, but it is vitally important that the work is being carried out by qualified, intelligent and creative individuals. A large part of the problem is that these positions are not viewed as being important and the people sitting in many of them require retraining (or training of any kind). Our public service is not hugely overstaffed, it's mainly a case that the current staff are poorly utilised and in some cases underqualifed and in rare cases completely useless and getting away with murder.
The public sector is now grossly overpaid by the same benchmarking standards which saw negotiations where all we heard was more, more, more. The fact that pay cuts will prove difficult for people is unfortunate, but you know, tough ****. My dad saw his wages nearly halved by the time he and all of his colleagues were laid off. There's a €22,000,000,000 deficit to faff ineffectually over, and the public sector doesn't want to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
As for the idea that pay cuts will cripple the civil service's ability to attract good staff, their pay is now, as I said, far above competitive. It can take the hit.
All the public sector unions have acknowledged the need for savings and for cuts. It's how they are to be made that's the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
The pay at the moment is not far above competitve, the same benchmarking standards are not being applied, and that's irrelevant to attracting good staff at the moment because there's been a recruitment embargo for over a year. One of the risks of private sector work is that pay and conditions can fluctuate rapidly, private sector pay will increase in an econmic recovery, whilst the public sector lags behind.
By the time the recruitment embargo is lifted nobody will want to know about public service jobs, and people will continue to moan about the poor standard of public servants running the country. There has to be a balance.
They have to be - it's illegal to Mass Picket. But, hey why would people let the facts get in the way of rants about how strikers should've been on the pickets all day, regardless about the shopping in the North crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
Just some general points...
- The only like for like comparison was benchmarking. It is instructive that those calling for reverse benchmarking in the media are talking about benchmarking with other eu countries and not the private sector in this one. Does that have anything to do with the latest figures showing a rise in earnings in the private sector?
- ICTU/ Public Service Unions haven't said a blanket "no" to pay cuts, just as that being the only measure. As part of an overall plan, which has some element of fairness with those most able paying the most I think staff would accept it. I know people have issues with ICTU's plan, but it is damning of the Government and others that this remains the only overall plan that anyone's put of the table!
- It's a pity that some of those that now think the public sector is great didn't apply when they had a chance. In the mid-noughties a colleague of mine spent a whole day "interviewing" and not one of the people called showed. This was a regular occurance in those days. Surely if salaries were so high, they should've been turning people away?
- Admin staff actually free up frontline staff to do frontline duties. Do people prefer cops, nurses, doctors behind a desk or dealing with the public?
Whatever about "ethically" and "solidarity", I was very disappointed that the strike wasn't called off in support of what was and is, in effect, a national emergency. There was nothing stopping the unions rescheduling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr Damo
Fair point, I've renamed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by centre mid
Can you give more detail on this Macy? Under what law? What are the details? Personally I think if poeple are on strike they should be picketing or fired and if the law says different I'd like to see it justified. I can't think why a picket of all striking staff can't be configured in a way that isn't disruptive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
adam
Oops, I commented on a CA topic.
Anyway, I should add to the previous post: ...if the unions keep control of their members. If yer out, yer out; it's not a holiday.
It's not a holiday, as you're not being paid. Unions expect you to show up for picket duty, there's normally a roster and you'll be ticked off a list when you attend.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
The Industrial Relations Act, you're only supposed to have enough so that relevant people know there's a dispute/picket (a bit "how long is a piece of string", but you couldn't have everyone on the picket, all day).Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Slightly off topic, but the internet is frigging amazing!
Why not? If everyone behaves themselves, what's the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
That's always been the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
Right now, the public sector is laughing at the private sector, they have their job security, and atm that's more important than whether John or Joan will lose €50 a week from the government in January. The tears are for the private sector, who have pay cuts, and job losses to deal with, with little hope of working for the foreseeable future. Then the government want to slash the piecemeal payment they get in the new year, after they've spent 12 weeks waiting to trudge up to the post office to collect it.
Most countries have the same problem at the moment, yet I don't see the French going mad over it (and they like to kick up a fuss), I don't see the Germans, Spanish, Italians, Russians, etc, etc going out to strike. To me, quite a few "on strike" saw it as a bonus day out to Newry for shopping, and they'll have another one soon. :mad:
Ya sure of course we're laughing, it's not like public servants are married to private sector workers who've lost their jobs and taken cuts, we obviously don't have parents, brothers and sisters and friends who've suffered too. It's all a great laugh we have it so easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
If only it was that black and white.
Most countries have to good sense not to attack the wages and conditions of public servants as their primary method of making savings.
Kildare St would have been totally impassable had all the civil servants been out at the same time. There was enough disruption of the footpaths with the 20-30 people that were outside the buildings on each shift. It would have been chaos to try and have all workers on the pickets all day. I'd imagine it would have some impact if it was done though, it would certainly raise awareness of the sheer volume of people effected.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Funny I was disappointed by the turn out on Kildare St. Don't have numbers for other depts but I know 1/3 of our union did not picket.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
1/3 of the union not picketing is shocking and I'd hope they get kicked out of the union because of it. I know none of us particularly wanted to be on strike but there's no excuse really for a union member not to picket once it has been decided to go ahead. There seemed to be a good turn out from ours, but having said that approximately 1/3 of names were missing when the roster was finalised and whether many of them turned up or not I couldn't say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
Public Servants are just incredible...Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
Most other countries don't pay the insane amounts of money our Public servants get????
I was watching Prime time last night.
Three people were interviewed.
One fella earns €50,000 Pa. Comes on saying he can't afford a pay cut????
(It would take me 2 years to get this.)
Another young woman a Physio comes on she gets €55,000PA.
Comes on saying he can't afford a pay cut????
(I'd have to work for Two years 3 months)
Another lad comes on he takes home 36,000 PA.
Comes on saying he can't afford a pay cut????
(Work a year and a half to earn this)
Seriously if you don't think there is something not quite right about that then 1/2 the public sector should be privatized.
You don't have to go into a boss who will act the ***** all day and watch what your doing all day and try take every penny he can from your pocket.
Bottom line is I dont mind him taking the money from me. I also don't mind the government taking money from me to pay your wages and to help out some poor sod who did absolutely nothing wrong sitting at home with no work to go to a mortgage to pay and a family to feed or the young lad just out of school who gets a stunning 100euro a week off the dole.
You can say well it's back handed and not being done right. Whatever way it's done it's required the sooner you help us (Private Sector) the sooner we can help ye. (Pay your wages by working).
(PS I know 4 Primary teachers who voted for strike action because they would get the day off...)
Yo, chief, we pay taxes too.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaiscíoch
I'd imagine what all these people have an issue with is that the one group of people in the state who could make definite financial arrangements with lending institutions etc., without fear of pay loss etc, the public servants, are not looking at being up sheet creek without a paddle due to pay cuts for the second time in a year.
I unintentionally misled you there.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
1/3 of our branch of our union didn't picket. Still not good enough, when that doesn't include those excused.
Sorry, but your argument is that public sector workers have an unalienable right to credit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingdom
I think we have enough to worry about with their unalienable right to not get fired no matter what they do, or don't do.
adam
I'm speaking about myself here. I'm a lower tier (and paid) civil servant. Of the group of 9 lads that I've grown up with, I'm the lowest paid and the only civil servant. I had the choice of going to college or joining the civil service. I choose the later because of the one main perk of the job - a consistent wage to budget going forward in life. When that is taken away (and I mean we've been shafted once already this year, whats to say when it will stop?) and the contract of employment is changed, the remaining perks are few and far between, and completely unreliable.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I've no doubt the only reason I got a mortgage was because I'm a civil servant who has 31yrs service still to run.
Seeing as these cuts are supposed to be for the greater good, to try and get the economy to parity, when businesses pick up, and jobs become plentiful, will we see the same clamour for Public service wages to be restored?
Also I've absolutely no problem with the opinion that there are wasters in the Public service, they are plentiful, but there are quality employees too. At the end of the day most of us take direction, initiative (or toe stepping) is a practice applauded in the main.
Either these people you know are idiots - voting for strike action so they can lose money? or they filling you up with a crock of something.Quote:
Originally Posted by gaiscíoch
I'm sorry but that's simply not true, it may have been the case in the past but it's not any more. I work in a personnel section now and there are numerous disciplinary cases currently being dealt wit and there has been more than half a dozen dismissals in the last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Admittedly not all areas seem to apply the same standards and this is an issue that must be addressed but progress is being made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by centre mid
so newspaper actually stopped people in newry and asked them the questions... yes but how many people did they ask ... sounds like a headline seller for a paper .. i don't doubt some people did travel to newry but probally not in the numbers of public sector as implied in article :confused: and yes a also agree strike should have been called off in solidarity with the unfortunate people suffering due to floods. :mad:
@Kingdom, while I can understand someone getting a certain sense of stability out of working in the pubic sector, to be perfectly frank anyone that relies upon it deserves what they get. Particularly those than came in when benchmarking was happening. If it can go up, it can go down. Speaking personally, I'm having problems getting a small mortgage at the moment, and although I'll certainly bitch about it, you won't see me out on strike because of it.
@passinginterest, it might not be 100% true in your sector but I'm sure you'll agree there's more than an element of truth in it. In some sectors it's absolutely crazy, there are people in the health and local sectors that simply don't work. I don't mean they doss about like the rest of us, I mean they don't work. At all.
adam
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/...019/index.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
That piece of legislation is the problem
There are strict legal limits on picketing under the 1990 Industrial Relations Act.
Picketing must be by members who are employees of the organisation in question and union officials.
There must be only sufficient on picket duty to advise the relevant people – mass picketing is illegal.
Four to six is normally considered sufficient.
We had already discussed the law soccerc, I was asking what justified it.
I really dont get what you are trying to say here. Anyone that works in the public sector deserves to suffer because they have a job?Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
Did you not understand the emphasis of the bolded text?