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http://breakingnews.ie/sport/soccer/eymhcwmheymh/
Squad Named
Shane Redmond
Stephen Henderson
Seamus Coleman
Callum Morris
Brendan Moloney
Lanre Oyebanjo
Darren Dennehy
Ian Bermingham
Cian Hughton
Seamus Conneely
James McCarthy
David Meyler
Stephen Gleeson
Owen Garvan
Alan Judge
Cillian Sheridan
James Collins
Jay O’Shea
Read more: http://breakingnews.ie/sport/soccer/...#ixzz0VQy9yXI9
That squad list seems to get worse with every announcement. Of course it would look 100 times better if Don Givens wasn't in charge.
Lot of first team experience there.
What players would you have in there and instead of whom?Quote:
Originally Posted by rambler14
Not what I meant I just think that there is very little talent coming through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Ah right. Yeah, that certainly seems to be the case.
I know it's a controversial statement but the team can't seem to win a match or even attempt to get close to qualifying for a tournament.
Part of that problem lies with Don Givens who should have been sacked ages ago but the players in the U21 setup have really struggled in the last few years.
An abundance of alternative players out there. Here’s an alternative team, with subs, who I reckon would give the selected panel a decent game. Stokes is included because he even if Trap hasn’t called him up for France, Givens won’t consider him.
James McKeown (Peterborough)
Kevin Long (Cork City)
Michael Spillane (Norwich City)
Gavin Gunning (Blackburn Rovers)
JJ O’Toole (Watford/ loan to Colchester)
Ian Daly (Aris Salonica, Greece)
Donal McDermott (Man City/ loan to Chesterfield)
Sean Scannell (Crystal Palace)
Keith Treacy (Blackburn Rovers/loan to Sheff Utd)
Kurtis Byrne (Hibs)
Anthony Stokes (Hibs)
Subs: Robert Bayly (Sporting Fingal), Graham Carey (Celtic), Jamie Devitt (Hull City/loan to Shewsbury), Terry Dixon (West Ham), Mark O’Toole (Galway Utd), James O’Brien (Bradford City).
Not saying that they’re all better than what’s chosen in current squad but surely the best players are not being picked.
Someone’s got to put the brakes on Don!
Thanks v good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Honn
I agree it's time for Don Givens to go. There doesn't seem to be any real mechanism in place that evaluates his job performance. The only job description Don Givens has from what I have understood is to develop players for the senior squad. If that's the case shouldn't his team mirror the formation and tactics of the senior team? If there an injury crisis situation where a U21 player needs to be called up, shouldn't Don Given have "developed" a player in the needed position ready to make the step-up? Is he doing that? - :D
I think the U21 manager should be somebody that is young, hungry, energetic and has the ambition to be the senior manager. And results should become pivotal in deciding if the U21 manager is doing a good job or not.
Those are potentially conflicting points. At youth level, player development is key and results should definitely take second place. Maybe under-21 is a little different and closer to senior level but really results shouldn't matter as much as player development. At underage level, an unnecessary focus on results leads to favouring players who are bigger and stronger than average in their age group at the expense of smaller potentially more skillful players who maybe haven't finished growing yet. Results orientated youth football produces players like Emile Heskey, Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard rather than the likes of Andres Iniesta, Lionel Messi and Xavi. English and Irish football doesn't produce as many small, technically gifted players as it does big, strong, fast and powerful players. I'm not saying it is necessarily a problem but I think in English and Irish youth football the balance is slightly wrong. That said, I think we are closer to having it right as we have more players (or historically, in general a greater percentage of players) in the Duff, Keane, Reid mould than the English do. Still, maybe at under 21 level results should play a bigger part, but an all encompassing top-to-bottom philosophy of how to play football (as they have at Barcelona) is fairly incompatible with results orientated football at the younger levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Meyler has been getting on the Sunderland bench for Premiership games. That's pretty good
Aren't Gunning, Scannell and Treacy usually in the squad? Are they injured?
Interesting points, SD, with which I broadly agree (though I would argue that both Rooney and Gerrard are as technically accomplished as Xavi or Iniesta, though not the phenomenal Messi).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
Nonetheless, a progressive set-up within the national set-up can still go some way towards mitigating the "structural" weaknesses inherent in players and teams produced by club football.
From browsing this forum, it would appear that the ROI do not currently have such a set-up in place, with Givens copping for much/most of the blame. We had pretty much the same situation in NI until recently. Our equivalent to Givens was a joker called Roy Miller (U-21 boss and Coaching Director etc), who had all the badges and God-knows how many years in post, but was still utterly hopeless.
This situation was allowed to prevail, even when Lawrie Sanchez was in charge, since he (LS) wasn't bothered by anything further than the immediate future, and how he was going to get through that.
Whereas when Nigel Worthington was offered the job, he was apparently reluctant to do so until he was given assurances that he would be allowed to employ his own coaches etc, who would have responsibility throughout the age groups, for scouting and development etc. (One of his first acts was to shift Miller).
At the same time, the IFA was not prepared to offer NW a 50%(?) increase over what Sanchez was receiving, unless he (NW) committed to spending a minimum number of days in NI etc. Consequently, he was seen at The Oval last week for instance, conducting a coaching session for the NI Ladies team.
Therefore the continuing employment of Givens is probably more of a symptom of the problem than the cause. And quite honestly, given his circumstances (age, nationality, contract length etc) it is unrealistic to expect Trapattoni to concern himself with this, as NW does.
Therefore, I suspect the cause of the problem, and its possible resolution, both lie with the FAI, since they ought to have considered this when they appointed Trapattoni.
Then again, they may have done so, then looked at the precedent of Jack Charlton, and decided that if Trap gets you to South Africa, then Givens and the U-21's etc can look after themselves?
Two weeks from today, we play France in Paris and as much, as I hate to say it, the odds are we’ll be knocked out and another four years away from a World Cup.
The cold facts are that by the time June 2014 comes around, our five main players will be the following ages: Shay Given, 37 Richard Dunne, 34 John O’Shea, 33 Damien Duff, 34 Robbie Keane, 33
When you factor in that four more of those in and around the current team will be 32+ (Kevin Kilbane, 36, Keith Andrews, 33, Stephen Hunt, 32, Liam Lawrence, 32), and that Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid are most likely not going to feature under Trap’s upcoming two-year extension, it soon becomes apparent that an injection of fresh blood with be needed over the next qualifying campaign.
Therefore, the man responsible for funnelling those players into the senior system has - besides Trap - the most important job in the FAI. And look who we have in that role!
Forgive my sense of foreboding but it is only then that the scale of the damage caused by Don Givens will be fully understood.
It’s just goes to show the arrogance of Givens that he refused to comment in the Sunday Times last weekend when asked about Treacy, Scannell and Gunning all being axed from his latest squad. This man appears to be answerable to no-one.
The list of players he’s fallen out continues to grow apace and who’s to say the likes of James McCarthy and Owen Garvan are going to be spared from his bizarre shenanigans over the next year or two.
If Stuart Pearce was up to this lark with the English U21s, he would be run out of the place but not here. Enough is enough.
(P.S. I have not even mentioned his atrocious win/lose record).
The point I wanted to make is that Givens is not "developing" players for the senior squad or producing the results to suggest that he is worthy of having a job for life (which he appears to have).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
I would prefer a new manager to come in that is doing one or the other.
Up to U21 level, I think it's fair to say that the FAI have their house in order. For some reason the U21 side seems to have been neglected and ignored. And contrary to what you are suggesting, NI have plenty of problems at U21 level as well. Losing matches 6-2 at home to Iceland and with the manager threating that a number of players will never play U21 football again, are you sure Steve Whathisname is not trying to be Don Givens?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Though I had thought things weren't so impressive as when Kerr was in charge of the under-age teams etc, I'll bow to your superior knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Givens? Or more specifically, the unwillingness of the FAI to address the "reason"?Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Short term, yes - I think a number of players started believing their own publicity.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
However, Beaglehole has not shirked the job of sorting it out and everyone I have spoken to who has had dealings with him is hugely impressed that he is the man to do it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Beaglehole
Anyhow, it seems that in the short term, he is bypassing the present U-21 team and promoting the very best of the U-19's etc eg Andy Little, Shane Duffy.
As for the long-term, that takes time (obviously!), but the signs are hugely encouraging, not least for the number of 1st or 2nd Generation kids in England he has persuaded to give NI a try (eg four or five at Man Utd alone).
I've no doubt that given time, he and Worthington will seek to impose a broadly similar style of play throughout all the teams, which can only bode well.
Why on earth would anyone else want to be Don Givens? :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Wales in the last couple of years seem to have progressed massively at under 21 level.They are starting to produce some very good players are are getting excellent results in qualifying.Is this just down to a particularly good batch of players or did the Welsh FA make a consious effort for this to happen?
four or five at Man Utd alone ... which players are these mate? and who is Andy Little?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
You have NOT seen many Galway United matches :eek:, he is definitely one of our weaker players and is regularly a sub in a very young 16-17 man squadQuote:
Originally Posted by Alf Honn
Sure have! Seen him play four matches this season and previous for Ire U19 when he was a Spurs player.
Not a world-beater but have you seen some of the left-backs chosen by Givens?! Don't be so hard on your players!
I'm sure EG has more of the low down ...Quote:
Originally Posted by bwagner
Conor Devlin
Corry Evans
Joe Dudgeon
Oliver Norwood
Craig Cathcart
Cathcart is on loan at Watford and Evans is Johnny Evans brother. I would have thought that a name like Conor Devlin would be interested in playing for us :-)
Have to agree that there should be a hungrier and more competent manager in charge there. Obviously Kerr would have been great .. but I think he has probably done that and seen that.
Chris Hughton would have been another ... but his career seems to have taken off now.
Stephen Kenny?
Andy Little's a lad who was outstanding in the N.I. Milk Cup winning team two years ago. He was playing for Linfield and was signed by Rangers since then. I think he's a regular in their reserves.Quote:
Originally Posted by bwagner
Sounds about right there macdermesser. I think Joe Dudgeon and Norwoord are both English but decided to play for NI.Quote:
Originally Posted by macdermesser
There are plenty of lads in the NI setup who would be interested in playing for us, but it's the manager's job first and foremost to call them up I think.Quote:
Cathcart is on loan at Watford and Evans is Johnny Evans brother. I would have thought that a name like Conor Devlin would be interested in playing for us :-)
Like EG said in an earlier post, I don't necessarily think the problem itself is the manager, but rather, the FAI. I don't think Seán McCaffrey is doing the best of jobs in his tenure in charge of the u17 and u19 squads either, so I wouldn't be criticising Don Givens so harshly. That being said, maybe it is time to have a complete restructuring of the under-age squad management. In the event Stephen Kenny leaves Derry, I'd say he'd be an excellent choice as manager of the under-21s or even u19s. For sheer comedy value, I'd offer Dunphy a role too. :cool:Quote:
Have to agree that there should be a hungrier and more competent manager in charge there. Obviously Kerr would have been great .. but I think he has probably done that and seen that.
Chris Hughton would have been another ... but his career seems to have taken off now.
Stephen Kenny?
Actually, young Devlin seems entirely happy to be playing for us, with no thoughts of defecting. And I don't know whether he's mates with Ollie Norwood, but despite having played for England Schoolboys, Norwood has so enjoyed training with NI etc, he has now declared for us. To get a MU and England player is quite a coup, and totally unimaginable when Miller was in charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by macdermesser
All of which reflects the point I was making, which is that Beaglehole has been a complete breath of fresh air after Miller, who seemed so immoveable that he wasn't prepared to get off his fat arse and look for new players, or cultivate those he did have.
Someone pointed out on another forum that as well as Cathcart (MU loanee), we have another five youngsters at Watford, all 1st or 2nd generation from different families, who have now declared for NI.
We have 7 youngsters at Preston (though most/all may be NI-born?). We've now even unearthed an English-born player at Chelsea, and one at Arsenal, clubs where we never previously had any contacts.
Little has now made the step up from Rangers Reserves (not actually their 2nd XI, as it happens), to being on the fringe of the 1st team squad - he has actually started a couple of games, plus come on as sub. Curiously, NI pick him as a striker, which was always his position, but Rangers pick him variously at Full Back, Centre Back and Midfield! And btw, (Enniskillener) Little started out with Ballinamallard Utd, before signing at Ibrox - he never played for Linfield (Thank Goodness!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Maybe, but such has been the impact of Beaglehole and his team, that most seem to be happy to stay, since the atmosphere and organisation, indeed whole environment is now so enjoyable. Plus the fact that we are unearthing so many new GB-born players means we can better afford to lose the occasional individual who looks Southwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Indeed, we have even kept one young lad from Cavan, Chris Curran, who played for our Schoolboys since he went to school over the border in Fermanagh. (Don't worry, he qualifies for NI beyond Schools football via Fermanagh ancestry and in any case, may not make it as a pro, since he was recently released by MU to sign for Conference side, Forest Green).
Agree (though I personally hope that the ROI selectors keep waiting for the player to make the first call!) Anyhow, there have been a few English-born players who have been reluctant to "burn their bridges" with their country of birth. Rather than giving up on them like Miller would have done, Beaglehole has kept in constant contact, to assure them that NI was still an option, finally persuading a couple to give us a go. Most notable of these was Chelsea full-back Carl Magnay, a Gateshead lad who had been reluctant, partly because his only connection was a grandparent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Not familiar with the ROI's Youth set-up, but that sounds right; the fewer young players you have, the more important it is that you have the right people looking after them, as part of an overall plan which encourages continuity and consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Indeed, having a small pool of players to work with can actually help, since it means those kids who can make the step-up quickly can be identified early and "fast-tracked".
Our best example recently is Niall McGinn; I don't know whether he'll make it at Parkhead or not, but he shows he's got the 'X' Factor every time he puts on an NI shirt!
I wonder why you'd think that, Shane ;):D?Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
I'm not sure about that. I actually worked with Niall McGinn in a bar a couple of years back (when he was still playing for the Swifts) and we were talking about the Darron Gibson situation and Niall said he would only play for the North. The Gibson situation is a bit different because Derry City is a bit different (as a place I mean not as a club) in terms of how it considers itself part of Ireland. The buses from Derry to Dublin are as full as the buses from Derry to Belfast and there aren't very many other places you can say that about in the North.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Very interesting observation re wee Niall (this Board really needs a 'Thumbs Up!' icon, btw).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
Certainly he has always said the right things about representing NI in the media, and whilst paper talk etc is hardly the most reliable source, the way he actually plays strongly reinforces this.
Anyhow, good for him, especially since it is fair to say he is no great fan of the anthem* and you will probably know that he comes from Donaghmore way, which without meaning to be provocative, makes Derry look like somewhere from the English Home Counties!
In any case, after just a couple of appearances for NI, he is already a firm favourite with the fans, which considering he's stepping into the shoes of former legend Keith Gillespie, is a hell of a compliment!
* - I do wish they'd change the bloody thing myself, though that's another thread on its own!
Cool, it's good to hear. Thanks for the correction too EG, my mistake!Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Yeah, I agree here- McGinn has been phenomenal. I really hope he makes it. To address the point though, I feel, since Brian Kerr left his post of under-age manager, the whole set-up seems to have changed and there hasn't been one real notable achievement since Kerr to be honest.That is why I pointed out that it was not just Don Givens who was to blame, but McCaffrey and most importantly, the FAI itself.Quote:
Not familiar with the ROI's Youth set-up, but that sounds right; the fewer young players you have, the more important it is that you have the right people looking after them, as part of an overall plan which encourages continuity and consistency.
Indeed, having a small pool of players to work with can actually help, since it means those kids who can make the step-up quickly can be identified early and "fast-tracked".
Our best example recently is Niall McGinn; I don't know whether he'll make it at Parkhead or not, but he shows he's got the 'X' Factor every time he puts on an NI shirt!
Ha, somehow I don't think a 17 year old professional footballer would be bothered with posting about himself on a messageboard. The only reason I post about Duffy, is because he's a Derry lad, like myself, and he's a talent we could harness - I also post about young Patrick McEleney and Darron Gibson from time to time; am I them too? :eek:. In any case, the omission of Shane Duffy from squads is certainly not the reason why I pointed out McCaffrey's performance as youth manager - Duffy is only one player. IMHO, he hasn't been using his resources well and that has been reflected in recent results - losing 6-1 to Switzerland was as disgraceful as the NI team losing 6-2 to Iceland, I feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
To be fair, that's one situation, interesting and all as it is. I was speaking broadly and I'm pretty certain that a large number of lads from the North would rather play for Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
Damn right EG! It would help the case for a more inclusive NI team.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
DON GIVENS has admitted Keith Treacy has been returned to international exile for another breach of discipline with the Ireland under-21 squad.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...258192937.html
Would be interesting to see who the other small group of players consisted of and whether they have been excluded from the squad? Or is it because Treacy has form?
Shame about Treacy as he is a player that potentially can push for a place in the senior squad.
But do we really have such a high number of young players with "bad attitudes"?
From the Irish Times:
The winger is understood to have been with a small group of players that failed to return to the team hotel at the appointed time.
“The situation has been dealt with in-house and I won’t be commenting on it directly. It’s been dealt with and I’d rather leave it at that,” said Givens.
“I will say that Keith has been left out of the squad as his attitude isn’t right at present. It wasn’t before and it needs to be right if we are to look at him again further down the line.”
------
Don, Don, Don,
Let me get this clear.
Ireland play Georgia on the Friday, Oct 9 after which a small nbr of players (not just Treacy) are late back to the hotel.
You decide you are not happy with Treacy's attitude and, of course, he's not a good influence on the other, younger members of the squad.
Your head tells you it's the end for this upstart. He's ****ed you off before and no-one will tell you that someone of his talent is beyond your high standards of authority.
You'll banish him from the camp the next morning (Sat) with no breakfast. He can bugger off and miss the Tues match against Swiss for his sins.
But no, Don. Instead of following through with your principle, you keep the player around the squad base for the next four days, whereupon he springs from the bench and sets up a last-minute equaliser.
What fun would we have without you, Don!
He has a point I think, assuming that this is the real reason he has excluded certain players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Givens
"I don’t run the squad with an iron fist but I’m trying to instil good professional habits with these young players that will stand them in good stead with their club careers, let alone their international futures,”
It's not impossible that a group of Irish lads might go on the rip when back home and if that is the kind of thing they're doing the night before a match, I'd rather not see them in the squad.
I wonder is Givens talking of Foot.ie here...:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Givens
“It surprises me that people who’ve never even seen the under-21 team play can find it very easy to criticise how I pick the squad. “We played in Tallaght last month and I didn’t see the people who were writing about me this week at that game."
Yes totally agree. One thing about Givens is that he is brutally honest in giving his take on things. But maybe it's how Givens views certain events and actions that is the problem. And we don't know if those players were on the rip - they could have been caught in traffic/ at the cinema etc etc for all we know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
:D.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator