WC02 v PO09

Pick a team between the Irish Squads for WC02 and the current available players in '09

GOALKEEPERS
SHAY GIVEN, DEAN KIELY, ALAN KELLY
DEFENDERS
STEVE STAUNTON, GARY BREEN, ANDY O BRIEN, IAN HARTE, GARY KELLY, RICHARD DUNNE, STEVE FINNAN, LEE CARSLEY
MIDFIELD
JASON MC ATEER, MATT HOLLAND, MARK KINSELLA, KENNY CUNNINGHAM, STEPHEN REID, KEVIN KILBANE
STRIKERS
ROBBIE KEANE, DAMIEN DUFF, NIALL QUINN, CLINTON MORRISON, DAVID CONNOLLY
MANAGER
MICK MC CARTHY
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Id have to start by giving Trap the managers job. No offence to Mick but Trap is Trap.

My Mixed Team
GK - Given
D - O'Shea, St Ledger, Dunne(09), Harte
M - Duff, S.Reid, Whelan, McGeady
F - Keane, Quinn
Subs: Finnan, Kilbane, Doyle, Hunt, Kiely, A.Reid

so basically people are saying we ahve a better team now. This is waht i said all along, but yet people were trying to make out we had better players in 2002. This is the best group of players bar our midfield we have had in a long time.

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Originally Posted by blobbyblob

Pick a team between the Irish Squads for WC02 and the current available players in '09

GOALKEEPERS
SHAY GIVEN, DEAN KIELY, ALAN KELLY
DEFENDERS
STEVE STAUNTON, GARY BREEN, ANDY O BRIEN, IAN HARTE, GARY KELLY, RICHARD DUNNE, STEVE FINNAN, LEE CARSLEY
MIDFIELD
JASON MC ATEER, MATT HOLLAND, MARK KINSELLA, KENNY CUNNINGHAM, STEPHEN REID, KEVIN KILBANE
STRIKERS
ROBBIE KEANE, DAMIEN DUFF, NIALL QUINN, CLINTON MORRISON, DAVID CONNOLLY
MANAGER
MICK MC CARTHY
--------------------------------------------------

Id have to start by giving Trap the managers job. No offence to Mick but Trap is Trap.

My Mixed Team
GK - Given
D - O'Shea, St Ledger, Dunne(09), Harte
M - Duff, S.Reid, Whelan, McGeady
F - Keane, Quinn
Subs: Finnan, Kilbane, Doyle, Hunt, Kiely, A.Reid

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I'd play Stan left back I think, although Harte did have a very good qualifying campaign, it just went downhill from there. Possibly would have Cunningham beside Dunne as well instead of Sledge (Kenny is shown as a MF above). I think a fit Stevie Finnan would have to be there as well. So my back 4 would be
Finnan, Dunne, JOSH, Stan/Harte.

The midfield is an interesting one, take Roy Keane out of the midfield we had in 2002 and there isnt much difference between now and then.

Whelan and McGeady in ahead of Kinsella/Holland and McAteer? Not a chance.

Kenny Cunningham was a centre half, not a midfielder, and I'd have him in ahead of St Ledger any day. Ditto Finnan ahead of O'Shea at right-back (although in fairness to O'Shea, given how much I've criticised him, he's been superb this campaign, although mainly at centre-half).

The only players I'd keep from the 2002 squad are the ones still playing - Keane, Duff, Given, Dunne, S Reid.

Jeez - Did Clint go to Japan? - I would never have remembered that

we had better players in 02 without a doubt. keane and duff were in their prime and players like holland and kinsella played above themselves. we also had niall quinn who, in only limited game time, contributed hugely to our goals v spain and germany. we have lacked a decent big striker since his retirement

ya he played gaelic football out there and he enjoyed it, they said he and duff were two of the better ones at it too.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

so basically people are saying we ahve a better team now. This is waht i said all along, but yet people were trying to make out we had better players in 2002. This is the best group of players bar our midfield we have had in a long time.

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I don't know. Duff was SO much better in 2002. Kilbane was a decent player then. Kelly was a fine right-back. Cunningham was better than Sledge is now....
I'd have Kinsella or Holland ahead of Whelan any day.
Quinn v Doyle is an interesting one.

-------------Given------------
Finnan--O'Shea--Dunne---Stan
McAteer--Reid--Kinsella---Duff
--------Keane--Quinn--------

Given is a far better player now, dunne is a far better player now, better than either stan or cunnigham were(plus dunne didnt really play then), keane was good then but he def wasn't in his prime. Duff was though, thats the one change, finnan is still playing, oshea is better than harte lads no question, he got caught out loads against spain and in general in that world cup. Quinn is not a better player than doyle but he offered something different. Mcgeady is better than mcateer, overall mcateer probably contributed more though. The only change is midfield as bad and all as mr invisible and kinsella were they were still probably better than whelan and andrews. id have holland and whelan almost on a par.

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Originally Posted by Junior

Jeez - Did Clint go to Japan? - I would never have remembered that

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haha, do you not remember the team playing a bit of GAA as training, and the media interviewing Clinto afterwards, he was saying,

"yeah, i'm a natural, man, i might take it up"

media guy "you do know you don't get paid, its an amateur sport"

clinto: "maybe not then".

classic. i always thought clinto should've come on against spain instead of david *worst player to ever pull on an ireland shirt* connolly.

also, matt holland would stroll ahead of both whelan and andrews.....

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

I don't know. Duff was SO much better in 2002. Kilbane was a decent player then. Kelly was a fine right-back. Cunningham was better than Sledge is now....
I'd have Kinsella or Holland ahead of Whelan any day.
Quinn v Doyle is an interesting one.

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I think Duffer is possibly on the verge on his best run of form since 2002.
Kelly was a fine RB but was on the way down at that stage, in particular his performance V Holland was fairly poor.

Kinsella and Holland did work well together but certainly were better players when Keane was alongside. They did however raise their game in a big way in the WC. I personally think slowly but surely Whelan is developing into a decent player and with a stronger MF alongside ie S Reid he has alot to offer.

Agree re Cunningham V Sledge

I think I would have Quinn above Doyle, similar scoring ratio, but Quinn and Keane worked better together.


One separate point, this months 442 magazine lists the 100 best players in the world. Now I know alot of it is based on the past years form but no sign whatsoever of Given, yet Cech and Reina both are included. :confused:
Newcastle was in dire straights last year but the guy put in some incredible performances (V liverpool for one) and Citys defence noticeably improved when he joined.

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Originally Posted by elroy

One separate point, this months 442 magazine lists the 100 best players in the world. Now I know alot of it is based on the past years form but no sign whatsoever of Given, yet Cech and Reina both are included. :confused:
Newcastle was in dire straights last year but the guy put in some incredible performances (V liverpool for one) and Citys defence noticeably improved when he joined.

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No surprise there. Given must be in the top-10 most under-rated EPL/World players ever!

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

No surprise there. Given must be in the top-10 most under-rated EPL/World players ever!

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I think most people who watch the Premier League regularly know how good he is.

In fairness to fans around the world who focus on other leagues, why would you bother to take note of a goalie on a mid-table team which rarely participates in continental competitions?

I'm sure there is a keeper in a similar situation in Italy or France that is highly regarded by fans in those nations but isn't well known around the world.

In order to be viewed as among the best players in the world, you need to play against them at the highest levels of competition. Apart from a little bit of Champions League football with Newcastle, and the 2002 World Cup with Ireland, Shay hasn't really played on a massive stage too often.

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Originally Posted by irishfan86

I think most people who watch the Premier League regularly know how good he is.

In fairness to fans around the world who focus on other leagues, why would you bother to take note of a goalie on a mid-table team which rarely participates in continental competitions?

I'm sure there is a keeper in a similar situation in Italy or France that is highly regarded by fans in those nations but isn't well known around the world.

In order to be viewed as among the best players in the world, you need to play against them at the highest levels of competition. Apart from a little bit of Champions League football with Newcastle, and the 2002 World Cup with Ireland, Shay hasn't really played on a massive stage too often.

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That's all true but I still can't believe no (regular) Champion's League-level team ever bought him.

(One other thing, in international games he's kept us in so many matches with incredible saves he'd surely be well known by opposing fans. The name Jorg Stiehl is etched into my brain, for instance!)

Im sure I will be corrected on this but I can only ever remember one goal conceded by Ireland where I felt Shay was at fault and that was versus Greece in a friendly around 2001.

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Originally Posted by magnumpi

also, matt holland would stroll ahead of both whelan and andrews.....

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Stroll is a bit strong - Whelan is on the up big time. He is in great form at the moment and has done a job for Ireland. Holland disappeared quickly after WC02.

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Originally Posted by elroy

I'd play Stan left back I think, although Harte did have a very good qualifying campaign, it just went downhill from there. Possibly would have Cunningham beside Dunne as well instead of Sledge (Kenny is shown as a MF above). I think a fit Stevie Finnan would have to be there as well. So my back 4 would be
Finnan, Dunne, JOSH, Stan/Harte.

The midfield is an interesting one, take Roy Keane out of the midfield we had in 2002 and there isnt much difference between now and then.

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Stan had no pace left at all in 2002, but he had a very good tournament at centre back, don't think he would have survived at left back

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Originally Posted by elroy

Im sure I will be corrected on this but I can only ever remember one goal conceded by Ireland where I felt Shay was at fault and that was versus Greece in a friendly around 2001.

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well some people thought he should have done better for both italian goals at croke park....

not me mind

Id play Cunningham ahead of Ledge, his leadership might help us keep a lead for more than 5 mins. Wouldnt have Harte in the first team, he broke my harte in 2002! Whelan and Steven Reid centre.. Duff left, right is a tough one, So impressed with Lawerance in the past couple of games.. Keane and Quinn, Big Niall was only concerned with supplying Keane rather than Doyle who wants to prove his own worth and score..

Here goes....

GK Given

RB Gary Kelly
CB Dunne
CB Cunningham
LB Harte - Very good qualifiers, dangerous set pieces (bar penos), and not going to slate him for one game, often the scapegoat.
RM McAteer
CM S Reid
CM Holland - Stepped up well in Roys absence
LM Duff - Maybe at 75% of 2002, but cleverer/more experienced and can still do that bit of magic to turn a game.
ST Keane - I disagree with someone above, I'd say Keane in prime now
ST Quinn/Doyle - I'd probably start Quinn against Germany and Spain, more hold up play, releaving pressure, and give Doyle a start to run at the Saudis and Cameroon.

---------------Given-----------------
-Kelly----Cunningham-Dunne---Harte-
-McAteer-S Reid----Holland-----Duff-
----------Keane---Quinn/Doyle-------

Subs - Kinsella, Clint, Kilbane, A Reid, Finnan, Breen, McGeady, Hunt, Kiely, Folan, Ledger, Stan

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Originally Posted by M@ttitude

Keane and Quinn, Big Niall was only concerned with supplying Keane rather than Doyle who wants to prove his own worth and score..

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Thats very harsh in my opinion. Doyle and Quinn are different types of players. Quinn was your out and out target man, left right up front to hold the ball up, relieve pressure, flick ons, win frees, you know yourself. Where as Doyle will run the flanks all day for you, and puts in a number of crosses for others, takes defenders away to make space, and a decent finisher when he gets a chance. I think its very harsh to accuse him of not being a team player in any way.

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Originally Posted by Polster

I think its very harsh to accuse him of not being a team player in any way.

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No, not accusing him of that at all, I have alot of time for Doyle. Great player, Great attitude. I would just pick Quinn over him as a partner for Robbie. I think it worked better.

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Originally Posted by M@ttitude

No, not accusing him of that at all, I have alot of time for Doyle. Great player, Great attitude. I would just pick Quinn over him as a partner for Robbie. I think it worked better.

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Sound aye, as I said previously I think they would both have games they are more suited to start in. But if it was the world cup final in the morning, I would have the mighty one in there no bother.

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Originally Posted by SuperDave

well some people thought he should have done better for both italian goals at croke park....

not me mind

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I think he should have done better for both goals - not saying he should have saved them both but I think a weak hand to the first and poor feet positioning for the 2nd mean't he didnt do as well as he should have. IMO.

That said we'd be lost without him - fabulous keeper.

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Originally Posted by blobbyblob

Pick a team between the Irish Squads for WC02 and the current available players in '09

GOALKEEPERS
SHAY GIVEN, DEAN KIELY, ALAN KELLY
DEFENDERS
STEVE STAUNTON, GARY BREEN, ANDY O BRIEN, IAN HARTE, GARY KELLY, RICHARD DUNNE, STEVE FINNAN, LEE CARSLEY
MIDFIELD
JASON MC ATEER, MATT HOLLAND, MARK KINSELLA, KENNY CUNNINGHAM, STEPHEN REID, KEVIN KILBANE
STRIKERS
ROBBIE KEANE, DAMIEN DUFF, NIALL QUINN, CLINTON MORRISON, DAVID CONNOLLY
MANAGER
MICK MC CARTHY
--------------------------------------------------

Id have to start by giving Trap the managers job. No offence to Mick but Trap is Trap.

My Mixed Team
GK - Given
D - O'Shea, St Ledger, Dunne(09), Harte
M - Duff, S.Reid, Whelan, McGeady
F - Keane, Quinn
Subs: Finnan, Kilbane, Doyle, Hunt, Kiely, A.Reid

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Harte replaces Kilbane defo (for all Harte's defensive frailties and in this respect he was no worse than Kilbane at least he could take a good freekick, distribute the ball, had a good shot and could score a few goals). Cunningham was a better player then than St Ledger currently is though I think he'll improve and possibility turn out to be better in the long term. Finnan I'd play instead of O'Shea. Kinsella and Keane (he was part of the squad and team taht got us there) were a far better midfield partnership and better individually than any players we can field in central midfield today by a disatnce (including S Reid). McAteer was better than McGeady/Hunt (jury's still out on Lawrence). Quinn worked better with Keane than Doyle does though you could say their partnership suffers more from severe lack of service than any problems with understanding each other's game.

We had a way better team back then.

I left out Roy Keane as he would probably get into any irish team in the last 100 years and so was a non contest. As regards a midfield partnership I think that Stephen Reid and Whelan could be great together if they get a decent run together.

Finnans a funny one. If you look back on big games where hes played, he always been at the heart of everythings thats been good and bad. Crossed for mcAteer to score against Holland. Knocked the long ball up to Quinn for the flick on to Keane against Germany. Also poor marking on his part let Klose away in the same game. Still the chap is quality. Funny how he always saw himself as a central midfielder and wanted to move to that position in the long term.

Ditto as regards Ledge - I think his maturity is encouraging and should barring injury be a long term servant in the position. While I think that McAteer had a few magical moments in a green shirt it doesnt rest well that he gets in this team. Id nearly push Duff over to the right and stick Killer on the left.

It should be remembered also that Stan was Man of the Match against the Germans in the World Cup. No mean achievement and he was a great servent, albeit, finished at the end of the tournament.

With the exception of Roy, I wouldnt say that the 02 team was "way" better

----------------Gary Breen
Gary Breen Gary Breen Gary Breen Gary Breen
Gary Breen Gary Breen Gary Breen Gary Breen
-----------Gary Breen Gary Breen

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Originally Posted by youngirish

Harte replaces Kilbane defo (for all Harte's defensive frailties and in this respect he was no worse than Kilbane at least he could take a good freekick, distribute the ball, had a good shot and could score a few goals). Cunningham was a better player then than St Ledger currently is though I think he'll improve and possibility turn out to be better in the long term. Finnan I'd play instead of O'Shea. Kinsella and Keane (he was part of the squad and team taht got us there) were a far better midfield partnership and better individually than any players we can field in central midfield today by a disatnce (including S Reid). McAteer was better than McGeady/Hunt (jury's still out on Lawrence). Quinn worked better with Keane than Doyle does though you could say their partnership suffers more from severe lack of service than any problems with understanding each other's game.

We had a way better team back then.

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I don't think we had, bar the centre midfield and the managers style, mccarthy for all his faults played to our strenghts and tried to get us to play football, Trap hasn't done that, and its probably largely down to our midfield being so poor.

Shay Given 09
Steve Finnan 02; Dunne 09 ; O'Shea 09; Harte 02
MgGeady 09 ; S. Reid 09; Kinsella 02; Duff 02
Keane 09 ; Quinn 02

This would be a good team to put out against the French! For all the talk about the quality of player we had in 2002, I still would have more of today's squad in a combined team.

Niall Quinn was the impact sub for 2002 - he could not last the entire game.
It would have to be Keane/Doyle up front with Niall coming on for the last
20 minutes - How I wish we had him for that long now.

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Originally Posted by elroy

One separate point, this months 442 magazine lists the 100 best players in the world. Now I know alot of it is based on the past years form but no sign whatsoever of Given, yet Cech and Reina both are included

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Yes but this is a list that has Rio Ferdinand as the 12th best player in the World (and Vidic at 22nd to compound it's stupidty)

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Originally Posted by blobbyblob

Finnans a funny one. If you look back on big games where hes played, he always been at the heart of everythings thats been good and bad. Crossed for mcAteer to score against Holland. Knocked the long ball up to Quinn for the flick on to Keane against Germany. Also poor marking on his part let Klose away in the same game. Still the chap is quality. Funny how he always saw himself as a central midfielder and wanted to move to that position in the long term.

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That wasn't Finnan that left Klose in, it was Harte. Staunton raced out to close down the man in possession (think it was Ballack) and gestured to Harte to mark Klose. He didn't and the frontman had all the time he needed to place the header.
Don't think I ever heard him say he wanted to be a central midfielder, he only ever played right full and right wing at club level, and a handful of times at left full at international level.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

he only ever played right full and right wing at club level, and a handful of times at left full at international level.

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He spent a part of one season 7 or 8 years ago at left full for Fulham afaik.

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Originally Posted by blobbyblob

Pick a team between the Irish Squads for WC02 and the current available players in '09

GOALKEEPERS
SHAY GIVEN, DEAN KIELY, ALAN KELLY
DEFENDERS
STEVE STAUNTON, GARY BREEN, ANDY O BRIEN, IAN HARTE, GARY KELLY, RICHARD DUNNE, STEVE FINNAN, LEE CARSLEY
MIDFIELD
JASON MC ATEER, MATT HOLLAND, MARK KINSELLA, KENNY CUNNINGHAM, STEPHEN REID, KEVIN KILBANE
STRIKERS
ROBBIE KEANE, DAMIEN DUFF, NIALL QUINN, CLINTON MORRISON, DAVID CONNOLLY
MANAGER
MICK MC CARTHY
--------------------------------------------------

Id have to start by giving Trap the managers job. No offence to Mick but Trap is Trap.

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Well ... I'd probably give the job to Mick in this fantasy. Look at the teams he managed to get to the play-offs ... 1997 team was a very old team... and splitting Holland and Portugal was an amazing feat (Ok .. his captain had a large hand in that :-)

My Mixed Team
GK - Given

D - Finnan, Breen, Dunne, O'Shea

M - Duff, Kinsella, Holland, S.Reid

F - Keane, Doyle

Hart was poor in 2002.

Twas a great pity that Mick McCarthy had fallen out with Denis Irwin.

Denis was still a very good player then.

Ah regrets regrets.