Kenny's Seanad solo run sparks fury in FG

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19/10/2009, 6:37 AM
Ringo

Kenny's Seanad solo run sparks fury in FG

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...g-1917603.html

Quote:

FINE Gael TDs and senators have been left fuming after they were left out of the loop on Enda Kenny's proposals to abolish the Seanad and reduce the number of TDs.

Some of the party's representatives last night claimed they had only found out about the plans to cut TD numbers by 20 and completely eliminate all 60 senators in a text message from party headquarters on Saturday afternoon.

Others said they had heard rumours of the planned announcement just 24 hours earlier but the matter had never been raised through the "proper channels".

On Saturday afternoon, just hours before Mr Kenny took to the podium to announce that his planned Oireachtas reform would save �150m, TDs and senators were delivered a copy of his speech by email.

Kenny shooting himself in the foot again. Most people at this stage would see little merit in keeping the Seanad & reducing the number of TD's seems sensible.
19/10/2009, 7:58 AM
Macy

He's still trying to recover from Gilmore blasting him out of the water with O'Donoghue. It seems a bit mad when after the locals results they'll be dominant in the upper house after the next elections, regardless of what happens in the D�il.

Bar being peed off at being lectured to by totally unelected knobs like Harris on waste and pay, I'm fairly undecided on the Senate. It has served a benefit on occasions with issues like contraception.
19/10/2009, 9:36 AM
dahamsta

I'd like reform in the Senate. I think the idea of abolition is nonsensical.
19/10/2009, 9:44 AM
Sheridan

Abolishing a rubber stamp institution which drains public finances and merely serves as an incubation chamber and retirement home for people who are too incompetent to get elected for FF and FG in rural constituencies makes perfect sense to me. Would also be the end of Senator Shane Ross.
19/10/2009, 10:05 AM
dahamsta

I've changed my mind in light of that insightful comment. The Dail and the Cabinet are full of incompetents and morons too, so we should abolish those, and bring back Bertie as a dictator. Yay Ireland!
19/10/2009, 10:08 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Abolishing a rubber stamp institution

It would be less of a rubber stamping institution without the taoiseach's nominees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Would also be the end of Senator Shane Ross.

Speaking of people too incompetent to get elected for FG....
19/10/2009, 10:36 AM
Sheridan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I've changed my mind in light of that insightful comment. The Dail and the Cabinet are full of incompetents and morons too, so we should abolish those, and bring back Bertie as a dictator. Yay Ireland!

Those are people we're stupid enough to elect. The Seanad is full of people who are so stupid that even we are not stupid enough to elect them. It serves absolutely no purpose. In fact, it actively undermines democracy by fostering the continued development of a political class.
19/10/2009, 1:17 PM
bennocelt

Two words - Donnie Cassidy:eek:
19/10/2009, 1:19 PM
Sheridan

I think you'll find that's three words (Donie ****ing Cassidy.)
19/10/2009, 1:25 PM
mypost

It is a a+e for failed politicians, it should be in light of the economic climate, suspended for the foreseeable future.

The Dail sits for usually 23 hours a week, the Senate barely half that. They sat for one day last week, officially for a mark of respect for a deceased member, but in May this year, it was suspended one day for a golf outing. :eek:

It's simply not worth continuing with these days.
19/10/2009, 1:30 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Those are people we're stupid enough to elect. The Seanad is full of people who are so stupid that even we are not stupid enough to elect them. It serves absolutely no purpose. In fact, it actively undermines democracy by fostering the continued development of a political class.

You want to end the political class? Limit D�il service to one term.
19/10/2009, 1:46 PM
seand

Whatever about the usefulness (or otherwise) of the Seanad its compostion is ludicrous and undemocratic as it stands.
19/10/2009, 1:50 PM
dahamsta

Of course it is, but suggesting that as a reason for disbanding it entirely is just plain take-my-ball-home childish. The Presidency is another ridiculous rubber-stamp office, if anything needs to be discarded, it's that. But it shouldn't, because democracies should have cheques and balances.

adam
19/10/2009, 1:57 PM
Sheridan

The reason for retaining the presidency is to provide a nominally apolitical head of state to represent the country for ceremonial purposes. The Senate is specifically constituted to prevent it from providing any kind of check to the executive power. We have a supreme court and a president to scrutinise issues of constitutionality, the Senate does sod all except function as a sort of undeclared honours system.
19/10/2009, 2:16 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Of course it is, but suggesting that as a reason for disbanding it entirely is just plain take-my-ball-home childish. The Presidency is another ridiculous rubber-stamp office, if anything needs to be discarded, it's that. But it shouldn't, because democracies should have cheques and balances.

adam

Deliberate pun?
19/10/2009, 2:24 PM
dahamsta

Freudian slip. :)
19/10/2009, 4:23 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

But it shouldn't, because democracies should have cheques and balances

Last time the Seanad actually checked the progress of any bill? Its only purpose is to fill seats on Oirechtais committees when TDs don't want to.

I get the feeling Kenny is making a play for "we hate politicians" vote after Gilmore outoxed him on John O'Donoghue
19/10/2009, 4:26 PM
dahamsta

See my first post on the subject. I know we had fun times making everything disposable during the boom, but you can actually repair things you know.
19/10/2009, 5:02 PM
OneRedArmy

I like the idea of an upper house.

I just don't like the one we have.

Never mind its lack of activity, its so undemocratic in its representation that even Kim Jong Il and Hugo Chavez would baulk at it.

They need to start from scratch IMO. On a semi-related theme, saw/read a good article/interview where someone was saying that the whole constitutional framework and content was ripe for review.
19/10/2009, 5:58 PM
Ringo

Quote:

Originally Posted by bennocelt

Two words - Donnie Cassidy:eek:

Keep your hair on.

We have Toupee a lot for the Seanad.
19/10/2009, 7:35 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

See my first post on the subject. I know we had fun times making everything disposable during the boom, but you can actually repair things you know.

I read it. I disagreed with it.
19/10/2009, 8:08 PM
dahamsta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

I read it. I disagreed with it.

Sorry Dodge, my mind-reading chip is on the blink at the moment. ;)
19/10/2009, 11:46 PM
BohsPartisan

Quote:

eliminate all 60 senators

Sounds great. Can I help? ;)
20/10/2009, 6:49 AM
Ringo

Kenny's claims not quite what he said in past

Quote:

A series of recent statements by the Fine Gael leader contradict his claim that he was wanted to abolish the Seanad for "quite some time".

Six months ago, at the height of a 'Late Late Show' debate, the party produced its proposals to "radically overhaul" the operation of the Dail and Seanad.

Two days later, Mr Kenny said the Seanad's workings could be changed but the second parliament should be retained.

"I don't see a necessity to abolish the Seanad," he said on LMFM in March. "I see a changed and more important role for it than is being given traditionally."

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...t-1918402.html

A lot of "i'm the leader yestersday". Kenny trying to look tough!
21/10/2009, 8:08 AM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Never mind its lack of activity, its so undemocratic in its representation that even Kim Jong Il and Hugo Chavez would baulk at it.

No idea why you'd bracket Chavez with Kim Jong Il. Are you a member of the Republican Party?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

We have a supreme court and a president to scrutinise issues of constitutionality, the Senate does sod all except function as a sort of undeclared honours system

Get rid of the inbuilt Government majority by getting rid of the taoiseach's nominees.

Have the elections after local elections rather than tied to Dail elections - if that was the case now there'd be a clear opposition majority in the the Seanad and you can bet it would be scrutinising and sending bills back. (And then we'd be having a debate about how it should be abolished for slowing down legislation :) )
21/10/2009, 8:20 AM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macy

No idea why you'd bracket Chavez with Kim Jong Il. Are you a member of the Republican Party?

Neither are the friends of democracy. Happy to throw in any right wing undemocratic systems either, those were the two that came first to mind!

The point was the the Seanad is ridiculously narrow and effectively undemocratic in its structure. Even allowing for that, it achieves very little.
21/10/2009, 9:15 AM
dahamsta

I'd agree with ORA on Chavez. Chavez is the same as every dictator before him, it starts for "the good of the people" and ends "for the good of me and my mates". People need to take another look at him before continuing to lionise.

I'd maintain my "if it's broke, fix it" stance on the Seanad. Disbanding it entirely because of bad management is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

adam
21/10/2009, 9:50 AM
Dodge

Some babies deserve to be thrown out
21/10/2009, 10:45 AM
SligoBrewer

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

Those are people we're stupid enough to elect.

Sorry but David Norris?
21/10/2009, 11:53 AM
BohsPartisan

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I'd agree with ORA on Chavez. Chavez is the same as every dictator before him,

This and ORA's comments are ridiculous. I'm actually not a big fan of Chavez and the direction he's taking the bolivarian revolution in but calling him a dictator is bang out of order, unless Obama is one, Brown is one, Sarko is one, Cowen is one... Chavez was elected over and over again, faced a recall referendum, won, was elected again. :rolleyes:

I think his regime has done a hell of a lot of good but I'd agree that its overbearingly bureaucratic, but what state isn't?
21/10/2009, 12:21 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

This and ORA's comments are ridiculous. I'm actually not a big fan of Chavez and the direction he's taking the bolivarian revolution in but calling him a dictator is bang out of order, unless Obama is one, Brown is one, Sarko is one, Cowen is one... Chavez was elected over and over again, faced a recall referendum, won, was elected again. :rolleyes:

I think his regime has done a hell of a lot of good but I'd agree that its overbearingly bureaucratic, but what state isn't?

I didn't use the word dictator, but I agree with dahamsta that he's moving that way.

Leave aside the (alleged) good he's done (and sitting on an ocean of oil makes many things easier to achieve), he's taken a number of actions that have negatively impacted democracy.

Happy to discuss this further in a separate thread, but when you scrape under the anti-American speechifying and tub-thumping (which is a good thing, if only for humour value), there's quite a few alarming things he's done, particularly in the last 12 months.
21/10/2009, 8:27 PM
dahamsta

What ORA said. Alarming is an understatement.
22/10/2009, 8:57 AM
John83

So, FG have backed Kenny's stream-of-consciousness as a source of policy. I kind of figured they would - in fact, I suspect this was a planned attempt to have Kenny appear to be leading from the front in the press, when in fact he's more of a cattle (or cat) herding type anyway.

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