Difficult to control the ball in midfield in international football

I keep hearing about how we should hold the ball in midfield.

Watch any of the Ireland world cup qualifying matches including tonight's game and you will see that no player no matter how good or bad gets more than a half second on the ball before being tackled.

It's a myth that in the modern international game which features the best international players on every team, you get time on the ball to look up, pick out a perfect pass or else hold the ball for a couple of seconds.

It's not the fecking 1970's where opposing players were in the pub the night before, had steak and chips before the game and are a couple stone overweight and had no fitness training.

We'd all love to see an Irish midfielder hold the ball up, put their foot on the ball like the used to do in the 1970's and wait for something to happen. But in the modern game as soon as you get the ball, some superfit midfielder from the other team is on top of you. That's the reality. And it's not going to change soon.

I don't think Andy Reid would get any time to put his foot on the ball, turn, look up and pass. He'd be dispossessed by then. It's one thing to do it against Wolves, Wigan or teams like that. It's another to do it against the Italians. There is a world of difference between international soccer and mid and lower table club soccer.

Stephen Hunt more resembles the modern international midfielder, fast and superfit and able to tackle others while beating them for pace. As for the midfielder who can stand in the middle of the field, and spray the ball around while no-one from the opposition gets near him, that day is long long over.

It's a completely different era and game now.

Thats nonsense, look at Pirlo the other night, he sprayed the ball around beautifully. Or even Styllian Petrov when we played Bulgaria in Dublin. Both Whelan and Andrews are ball winners and very raw 'tackling' midfielders. They don't distribute the ball for their clubs. We havent had a midfielder who can do both since RK.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

As for the midfielder who can stand in the middle of the field, and spray the ball around while no-one from the opposition gets near him, that day is long long over.

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pirlo did exactly that for over an hour the other night

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Originally Posted by dodgycanadian

Thats nonsense, look at Pirlo the other night, he sprayed the ball around beautifully.

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ahh snap! :D

I take it you missed the Italian game at the weekend so, Pirlo is as slow as a carthorse and still managed to hold the ball in midfield, have time and spread nice passes around.

....and you had a go at Dunphy for his level of knowledge!

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Originally Posted by ken foree

ahh snap! :D

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Indeed :D

shakes head tut tut

How many of you people watched the match twice like me?

Point me to one chance in open play in the match Pirlo set up?

Pirlo did not dominate. Watch the game again if you can.

Dunphy said he did, he also said the Irish performance was shameful and he back tracked on that.

Pirlo was subbed in Bari because he was sh1t. And he didn't dominate in Dublin, except in Dunphy's mind. You people would want to use your own brains instead of deferring to Dunphy on everything.

And if I am to accept for one minute what any of you say (which I don't), how anyone can mention Pirlo at his peak which he is past, and Andy Reid in the same breath is laughable.

By the way, Andy Reid is only a stick used to beat Trap with.

If Reid was put in and Hunt left at home in England, Dunphy would be crying out for Hunt to be included so we'd have someone with pace and aggression. He's crying out for Lee Carsley to be included ffs.

Reid was with the Irish setup for five years and we didn't qualify for anything nor get to any play offs. He was with Ireland when we got beat 5 - 2 in Cyrpus. Yet with our new midfield we won 2 - 1 in Cyprus.

So should we go back to a losing formula then? Maybe we should sack Trap and rehire Stan and be done with it, just so Reid can get in the team.

Andy Reid is not a world beater, please accept that and get on with it.

I think Dunphy's useless and has become 'a parody of himself' as I said in the other thread. He wasn't wrong about Pirlo though, the fact that you can't see that having watched the game twice is only a bigger joke. I made up my mind from what I saw, it had nothing to do with Dunphy, you seem to form your own opinions by automatically taking the polar opposite position to him.

Also, you're moving the goalposts as soon as you get caught out, you've gone from claiming that players don't and can't create time and space (when the world can see they do) to pretending the point was Pirlo dominating and creating chances, which he did if the strikers were better in my opinion.

Your point about Andy Reid I sort of agree with, I don't think he'd make the difference Dunphy claims, but his exclusion from the squad is still ridiculous.

i'm just so sick of listening to giles and especially dunphy complain and massage their own egos what did there coaching careers amount to? giles even said tonigt that he has no belief in systems that instead you should pu the best 11 players out in their best positions!? sure thats pretty much what staunton was trying!!! i love souness hes the only one with sence.

even bill is right more often than the other two

Andy Reid is not a world beater, please accept that and get on with it.[/QUOTE]


So tell us which midfielder we have is a world beater?

stephen reid was once courted by man utd until his injury so when/if hes fit and at his best he is your man.. and im sure our dear friend stephen ireland isnt to bad on his day either? if we had both of these and a fit finnanwe would have won the group

[QUOTE=Emmet7;1250276]I keep hearing about how we should hold the ball in midfield.

I don't think Andy Reid would get any time to put his foot on the ball, turn, look up and pass. He'd be dispossessed by then. It's one thing to do it against Wolves, Wigan or teams like that. It's another to do it against the Italians. There is a world of difference between international soccer and mid and lower table club soccer.


Or doing it against those no-hopers Man Utd a couple of weeks ago. And om not sure theres a huge difference between international soccer and a mid-table epl game.

I'm sorry, but we had Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid playing for Ireland before. Stephen Ireland was in the team that got hammered out in Cyprus. His main highlight of that campaign apart from the goal in the dead rubber match against Wales, was the winner in the 5th minute of injury time against, wait for it, San Marino.

Andy Reid was in the Ireland team that played quite probably the worst ever home international performance, the 1 -1 draw against Cyprus at Croke Park.

If these players struggled against San Marino and Cyprus, why should they be any better against Italy? Unless of course the present manager is far better than previous managers and the team he has put together has a genuine chance of beating better teams.

As John Giles has said himself, the longer a player, no matter how genuninely good or bad, is out of a team, the better they become in the eyes of the public. That's what is happening with Reid and Ireland. They played with us before and they were not world beaters in an Irish jersey. Both have a habit of doing something good occasionally which gets headlines, but of also disappearing for long periods of a match, eg Ireland in the Manchester derby. They are both inconsistant. We need consistant players.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

How many of you people watched the match twice like me?

Point me to one chance in open play in the match Pirlo set up?

Pirlo did not dominate. Watch the game again if you can.

Dunphy said he did, he also said the Irish performance was shameful and he back tracked on that.

Pirlo was subbed in Bari because he was sh1t. And he didn't dominate in Dublin, except in Dunphy's mind. You people would want to use your own brains instead of deferring to Dunphy on everything.

And if I am to accept for one minute what any of you say (which I don't), how anyone can mention Pirlo at his peak which he is past, and Andy Reid in the same breath is laughable.

By the way, Andy Reid is only a stick used to beat Trap with.

If Reid was put in and Hunt left at home in England, Dunphy would be crying out for Hunt to be included so we'd have someone with pace and aggression. He's crying out for Lee Carsley to be included ffs.

Reid was with the Irish setup for five years and we didn't qualify for anything nor get to any play offs. He was with Ireland when we got beat 5 - 2 in Cyrpus. Yet with our new midfield we won 2 - 1 in Cyprus.

So should we go back to a losing formula then? Maybe we should sack Trap and rehire Stan and be done with it, just so Reid can get in the team.

Andy Reid is not a world beater, please accept that and get on with it.

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Pirlo has an ability to find a yard of space. The number of times he received the ball on Saturday and turned away from his marker (Andrews) into loads of space was unreal. He was poor in Bari because our central midfield was even deeper and he certainly learned from his mistakes when he played in Ireland. He managed to make himself a lot of time and space in dangerous positions and played some decent passes into his front men, who were generally poor on Saturday (not Pirlo's fault).

However, Andy Reid doesn't have the same ability to find time and space imo. He's a decent player but not a great one (the best Irish player at the moment is probably Steven Ireland, but that's a whole other can of worms) and his inclusion might improve the team but equally it might not. Why risk squad harmony and discipline for something that is only a possibility and not a massive one at that? The potential improvement is marginal and the potential risks are as large as his former waistline. I don't see the point.

Plus, he does have the NFL in LA effect (that is, there is no NFL team in LA, so if a city kicks up a fuss, won't build a new stadium etc etc, the team/NFL can threaten to move to LA ensuring the city's compliance with the request) where his situation can be used to remind other players to stay in line and keep squad discipline up. That said, I'm not sure that is what's happening as morale and discipline seem pretty good anyway especially now the team have a common goal in sight and a wonderful us-against-the-world(rankings) seige mentality.

It's particularly difficult to control it when it's sailing 20 feet above your head for the majority of the match.

having watched the Montenrgro match, if we are going to play the current system, are we not better off with a target man? Caleb Folan seems excellent at holding the ball up. What we are playing at the moment is a complete contradiction! get a tricky winger like mcgeady, who will win frees in good position, Duff is also good, but Hunt has staked a very good claim to a starting position. Get good free kick winners (which we have) a good set piece taker (we have several) and another gib target man (I think we are too light in the top half of the pitch. At the moment, there seem to be alot of long balls up the pitch, the ball goes straight to an opposition player and we are being attacked all over again. Anyone else agree? at the moment I dont even think we have a style, we are somewhere between wanting to play football on the ground or not, and its not working!

We've only got two player capable of scoring regularly from open play, Doyle and Keane. Folan is not a goalscorer so if he replaces one of those suddenly you're making it for easy for opposing teams to mark out our goal threat and we're forced to be a set piece team.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

You people would want to use your own brains instead of deferring to Dunphy on everything

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What Do You Mean, YOU PEOPLE???
http://www.filmofilia.com/wp-content.../robertdjr.jpg

[QUOTE=Emmet7;1250311]
Point me to one chance in open play in the match Pirlo set up?
[QUOTE]

Did he not start the move that led to the equalizer? He was the best Italian player on the pitch by a country mile and any of the match reports i read would agree with this.

doyle has scored 7 goals, I dont think thats enough to claim that along with Keane he is the only player capable of scoring consistenly from open play. Fair enough Folan wont score many, but he can provide oppurtunities for others! win free kicks, provide knock ons and would be a big target man... Nobody knows for sure how it would work out, but I think it would be worth a try. Like yesterday against Montenegro, if you cant play through them, play over them!

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

We've only got two player capable of scoring regularly from open play, Doyle and Keane. Folan is not a goalscorer so if he replaces one of those suddenly you're making it for easy for opposing teams to mark out our goal threat and we're forced to be a set piece team.

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I am Kevin Doyle's biggest fan.

However, he never looked like scoring against Italy in both the home and away games.

We could have played him for a 1000 minutes and I have a feeling it would have been the same.

Pundits are asking why he was taken off in both games. It's blatently obvious. He didn't score and he didn't look like scoring.

Folan clearly was a far far more dangerous player against the Italians in Bari, he was a real handful, he won every header that came his way, he held the ball up superbly and laid it off well, and he set up the winning goal.

Doyle is a good player, but the goals aren't coming for him for Ireland. Didn't score in either Italian match or in several others. You have to be honest about that, no use not being. Doyle and Keane are too similar players and sometimes similar forwards is not the way to go. Big strong defenders like Chilini will mop up in the air against Keane and Doyle all day long, that's a fact. While on the ground, the Italians are no mugs either. Playing the ball into the gulleys where they say Doyle is best, is not really an option as what's the use of having a goalscorer stuck out in the gulleys?

I just don't understand when people say why was Doyle taken off in Bari. It was blatently obvious to anyone with half a brain that the Italian defence had him in their pockets.

I think Folan is a good option if we are chasing a game. If in a second qualifying match and we are one goal down, that's Folan's stage. The football purists can shove expansive passing up their you know what at that stage. It will be a case of hoof it at Folan and hope Keane gets a break as happened in Bari.

Not pretty, but in Bari it was very effective. Give me effective over arty fary pretty football any day.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

I'm sorry, but we had Stephen Ireland and Andy Reid playing for Ireland before. Stephen Ireland was in the team that got hammered out in Cyprus. His main highlight of that campaign apart from the goal in the dead rubber match against Wales, was the winner in the 5th minute of injury time against, wait for it, San Marino.

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Every point you've made in this thread is way off the mark - most of this has been highlighted already. So I'll just concentrate on the above snippet.

The Stephen Ireland of today cannot be compared to the Stephen Ireland of 2 years ago. He's become a better player in every facet of the game, ie passing, tackling, shooting, stamina and his confidence is sky high. He's still an arrogant SOB but thats not the point.

Also, Andy Reid - when played by Staunton - was our best player in each game he started last campaign IMO. So to say neither would make any difference is simply wrong.

Emmt 7, you have hit the nail on the head! Doyle and keane are too similar, whats doyle going to do? chase a long abll into the corner and what cross it for robbie keane or the non existant support?

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Originally Posted by lionelhutz

Every point you've made in this thread is way off the mark - most of this has been highlighted already. So I'll just concentrate on the above snippet.

The Stephen Ireland of today cannot be compared to the Stephen Ireland of 2 years ago. He's become a better player in every facet of the game, ie passing, tackling, shooting, stamina and his confidence is sky high. He's still an arrogant SOB but thats not the point.

Also, Andy Reid - when played by Staunton - was our best player in each game he started last campaign IMO. So to say neither would make any difference is simply wrong.

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Way off the mark? Are you joking? I have been spot on in everything I've said.

I'd have Reid in the squad, I wouldn't have him on the first team though. But we have a settled team now, which is fairly solid. The major criticism of the Stauntan era was how we let teams like Cyprus walk through us. Trap has dealt with that problem with two strong athletic midfielders. We actually scored the same amount of goals in Cyprus under Stauntan and Trap, 2. But the difference was under Stauntan we conceded 5, while under Trap we conceded 1. If Stauntan managed to concede only one goal in Cyprus, he'd probably still be manager.

As for Ireland, we have seen the committment he has shown to the Irish cause. None.

Do we want a player in the squad, who on the eve of a big match he might pull out because he wants to be with his girlfriend, and lie about it, or if someone makes fun of his hair, he'll pull out.

When you are going into battle, you want men. Do you think Roy Keane would pull out of an international fixture because someone made fun of his hair? He'd probably punch them in the face or tell them to shove it up their b*llox. But he wouldn't pull out of the game.

Ireland can't be relied on. Stephen Ireland always comes first, the Irish team second.

As for on the field, did you watch the Manchester derby a few weeks ago? He was missing for long stretches of that game. In other games the same. He is capable of good periods lasting 1 or 2 minutes in a match. And then you mightn't see or hear from him for the next 85 minutes. I have seen his defending in more than one game and it's usually poor. He is no Roy Keane when it comes to tracking back.

Ireland has proved in the last few years when it comes to representing his country, he is just a drama queen.

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Originally Posted by Eh Weh

Emmt 7, you have hit the nail on the head! Doyle and keane are too similar, whats doyle going to do? chase a long abll into the corner and what cross it for robbie keane or the non existant support?

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Thanks. At least you and I can analyse players for ourselves and not wait to see what pundits have to say and parrot that at the water fountain for the next week, month or year.

im sorry now, but emmet7, you know as much about football as pat dolan knows about salad!! no midfielder can find space in international football. deco, pirlo, fabregas, essien, ballack, viera, petrov, xavi, iniesta, riquelme, gerrard, lampard, alonso. no actually your right, they wouldnt have got an inch against montenegro:eek:

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Originally Posted by ronburgundy

im sorry now, but emmet7, you know as much about football as pat dolan knows about salad!! no midfielder can find space in international football. deco, pirlo, fabregas, essien, ballack, viera, petrov, xavi, iniesta, riquelme, gerrard, lampard, alonso. no actually your right, they wouldnt have got a second against montenegro:eek:

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And how do all those players relate to Andy Reid who plays with Sunderland?

It's amazing how he isn't playing for Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan, etc, like all the other players if he is as good as you make out.

I'll concede this so, and it's not backtracking but an elaboration of my original point.

It's difficult to find time and space in the middle of the park in international football, but world class players are able to make that time and space. Zidane could do it. Kaka can do it. Ronaldo can do it.

Is Andy Reid in the same bracket as them, or world class? I think we all know the answer to that one.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

Way off the mark? Are you joking? I have been spot on in everything I've said.

I'd have Reid in the squad, I wouldn't have him on the first team though. But we have a settled team now, which is fairly solid. The major criticism of the Stauntan era was how we let teams like Cyprus walk through us. Trap has dealt with that problem with two strong athletic midfielders. We actually scored the same amount of goals in Cyprus under Stauntan and Trap, 2. But the difference was under Stauntan we conceded 5, while under Trap we conceded 1. If Stauntan managed to concede only one goal in Cyprus, he'd probably still be manager.

As for Ireland, we have seen the committment he has shown to the Irish cause. None.

Do we want a player in the squad, who on the eve of a big match he might pull out because he wants to be with his girlfriend, and lie about it, or if someone makes fun of his hair, he'll pull out.

When you are going into battle, you want men. Do you think Roy Keane would pull out of an international fixture because someone made fun of his hair? He'd probably punch them in the face or tell them to shove it up their b*llox. But he wouldn't pull out of the game.

Ireland can't be relied on. Stephen Ireland always comes first, the Irish team second.

As for on the field, did you watch the Manchester derby a few weeks ago? He was missing for long stretches of that game. In other games the same. He is capable of good periods lasting 1 or 2 minutes in a match. And then you mightn't see or hear from him for the next 85 minutes. I have seen his defending in more than one game and it's usually poor. He is no Roy Keane when it comes to tracking back.

Ireland has proved in the last few years when it comes to representing his country, he is just a drama queen.

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Ok, fistly in relation to Reid, I was just making the point that he was our best player in a number of games in the 2008 campaign, although thats not saying much. And I actually agree that we should stick with Traps starting team but how he's not on the bench is beyond me. If we needed a goal in any game, he'd be the first man I'd bring on in place of one of the defensive midfielders. He'd bring creativity to a midfield which currently has none.

Secondly, you've went on a long rant about S.Irelands lack of commitment to our country. I never said he should be allowed near our set up. I just stated that there's no doubt he'd be give us an extra dimension if he was part of the squad.

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

Way off the mark? Are you joking? I have been spot on in everything I've said.

I'd have Reid in the squad, I wouldn't have him on the first team though. But we have a settled team now, which is fairly solid. The major criticism of the Stauntan era was how we let teams like Cyprus walk through us. Trap has dealt with that problem with two strong athletic midfielders. We actually scored the same amount of goals in Cyprus under Stauntan and Trap, 2. But the difference was under Stauntan we conceded 5, while under Trap we conceded 1. If Stauntan managed to concede only one goal in Cyprus, he'd probably still be manager.

As for Ireland, we have seen the committment he has shown to the Irish cause. None.

Do we want a player in the squad, who on the eve of a big match he might pull out because he wants to be with his girlfriend, and lie about it, or if someone makes fun of his hair, he'll pull out.

When you are going into battle, you want men. Do you think Roy Keane would pull out of an international fixture because someone made fun of his hair? He'd probably punch them in the face or tell them to shove it up their b*llox. But he wouldn't pull out of the game.

Ireland can't be relied on. Stephen Ireland always comes first, the Irish team second.

As for on the field, did you watch the Manchester derby a few weeks ago? He was missing for long stretches of that game. In other games the same. He is capable of good periods lasting 1 or 2 minutes in a match. And then you mightn't see or hear from him for the next 85 minutes. I have seen his defending in more than one game and it's usually poor. He is no Roy Keane when it comes to tracking back.

Ireland has proved in the last few years when it comes to representing his country, he is just a drama queen.

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No, but if he was pulled up over a newspaper article he'd walk out of a world cup!!

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Originally Posted by Emmet7

It's a myth that in the modern international game which features the best international players on every team, you get time on the ball to look up, pick out a perfect pass or else hold the ball for a couple of seconds.

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Ever heard of Xavi, Iniesta and Xabi Alonso ?

They are mythical figures in a land far far away.

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Originally Posted by stojkovic

Ever heard of Xavi, Iniesta and Xabi Alonso ?

They are mythical figures in a land far far away.

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Yup...and remind me how many league titles, Champion's Leagues and European Championships Reid has won again?

I doubt Reid would get in the Barcelona or Real Madrid reserves to be honest.

But I suppose you or someone else is going to tell me Reid is world class because he had one good game against Man Utd. By the way the goal he supposedly set up for Jones against Utd, he overhit the ball and it was straight into Foster's hands, who should have dealt with it far better.

I think people are missing the point a bit here god konws reid wouldn't get near most of the top six's starting elevens but neither would Gibson,andrews, whelan or even the other reid..best of a bad bunch

A good midfielder, will find time on the ball.

You can see this with numerous players, even oshea at united.

Emmet, plenty of teams of all abilities are able to use the ball more better than we do.

Our inability to retain possession starts at the full back position where almost every ball played out is speculative and usually leads to mis-control up the pitch.

Our midfielders are instructed to be behind the ball for the most part so if they're not to play it sideways there's usually a long way to play it to the forwards. I think the reason that Doyle has only scored once in this campaign is because the service has been shocking from midfield. Our CM's job is to feed the wide men and protect the CBs. All our threat comes from long balls or from wide positions therefore.

Lack of ability and vision plays a role too. Ronnie Whelan commented on SKY on Weds just how clever Robbie's running off the ball was and how he found great positions, but the CMs rarely played with their heads up and never once found the pass he wanted.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Doyle has only scored once in this campaign

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Twice. Totally agree with your post though.

There was some difference with our game against Italy, O'Shea hoofed the ball a lot less, unlike the Cyprus game.
Against Montenegro, Miller more often than not was available to take the ball off the back four. It's not his forte, as could be seen with him moving sideways and not much symmetry between him and his midfield partner.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Lack of ability and vision plays a role too. Ronnie Whelan commented on SKY on Weds just how clever Robbie's running off the ball was and how he found great positions, but the CMs rarely played with their heads up and never once found the pass he wanted.

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Something he and reid seemed to have a clear understanding of. Thats not quite the right word it was more a telepathic vision or something but you get the point.

South Africa aren't a highly ranked football team. They've lost a lot of games lately. They totally dominated the ball in Thomond, every single player comfortable on the ball and hungry for it.

Just an example of how it's not just the good teams that use the ball well.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Twice.

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Thanks, forgot he scored in Cyprus.