The public vs private sector

The main economic bodies, both Irish and internationally and the private sector see the obvious solution to the country's spending deficit as a fairly significant pay cut across the public sector.

Obviously the public sector have come out against this and feel they will be sharing an undue burden of the economic pain. They have specifically denied that paycuts in the private sector have been widespread.

So, I thought a simple poll would be informative.

Only to be answered by those in the private sector. Simply, since the beginning of 2008, have you either taken a gross pay cut (i.e. before tax or government intervention) or have you been made redundant (the ultimate pay cut).
OR
is your gross pay the same, or more, than at the start of 2009.

The poll is private BTW.

ORA, do you (as the setter of the poll) get to see which option people voted for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by osarusan

ORA, do you (as the setter of the poll) get to see which option people voted for?

---

No, definately not. Not sure whether Adam does?

No, it's a private poll.

I think its missing the point a bit.

If a private sector firm was spending way more than it was taking in then cuts would happen. Isnt that the case with the government? Expenditure way exceeds income.

I am in the private sector and do not know of anyone taking a pay cut.

I do know a lot of people who have been made redundant.

Also if your on minimum wage then you cant get a pay cut.

The ERSI issed a report about 10 days ago stating that private sector wages have increased this year, although the data was about 7 months out of date.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I am in the private sector and do not know of anyone taking a pay cut.

---

If you can get public sector wages cut on the basis of a myth on private sector wages, then you can piggyback on those public sector cuts to reduce private sector wages. Unfortunately, much of the population has fallen for it.

Right wing organisations and Groups with an agenda such as the ERSI and IBEC are not finding the evidence of these pay cuts, so I'm not sure what this will add to it.

In HP all permanent employees were asked to take a 5% wage reduction. As far as I'm aware most refused though. It remains to be seen what the next move will be- probably some more layoffs.

Contractors in our group have all had to take some unpaid leave- only 1/2 a day for each of three months though.

In the States they simply tell the employees how its going to be and they get no choice or say in the matter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by centre mid

The ERSI issed a report about 10 days ago stating that private sector wages have increased this year, although the data was about 7 months out of date.

---

They said wages compared unfavourably with the public sector mind. Though, as a public sector worker, I've still not quite worked out exactly what class of Penal-times workhouse spalpeen I'm earning 25% more than.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

They said wages compared unfavourably with the public sector mind.

---

Especially in the hotel sector!?! Whether people liked the outcome or not, the only like for like comparison was benchmarking, which could be redone, but the people calling for wage cuts don't want that because it won't give them the result they want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macy

Especially in the hotel sector!?! Whether people liked the outcome or not, the only like for like comparison was benchmarking, which could be redone, but the people calling for wage cuts don't want that because it won't give them the result they want.

---

There's two arguments for wage cuts in the public sector:

1) the public sector is better paid in comparison with the private sector. This comparison is difficult to make definitively as its difficult to put a price on guaranteed pensions and job security. So this can never been definitively proved without making judgement calls and relying on individual situations and anecdotes. It also changes over time making comparison even more difficult.

2) there is a structural public sector deficit that requires spending to be reduced to avoid fiscal meltdown, and as wages are the biggest expenditure, then they need to fall.

We could argue 1) until the cows come home but 2) is hard to argue IMO.

What if the gross pay is the same but the perks are down the beers after work and expenses etc. being checked more these days.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dublinred

What if the gross pay is the same but the perks are down the beers after work and expenses etc. being checked more these days.

---

I'd guess you worked for FAS...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

1) the public sector is better paid in comparison with the private sector. This comparison is difficult to make definitively as its difficult to put a price on guaranteed pensions and job security. So this can never been definitively proved without making judgement calls and relying on individual situations and anecdotes. It also changes over time making comparison even more difficult.

---

The only bodies that have ever done a like for like comparison are the Benchmarking bodies. Average pay comparisons aren't valid, even the ERSI admit so (but then do another flawed comparison that doesn't compare actual jobs).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

2) there is a structural public sector deficit that requires spending to be reduced to avoid fiscal meltdown, and as wages are the biggest expenditure, then they need to fall.

---

The overall wage bill - there's more than one way to skin that cat that needn't mean wage cuts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I'd guess you worked for FAS...

---

No private sector , they still fiddle the expenses and mileage in the public sector its considered one of the perks of the job along with sick pay. It seems that all ancillairy spending on staff is chopped in the private sector have yet to hear of anyone having the traditional paid for lavish Xmas party with the free cabs home this year.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macy

The overall wage bill - there's more than one way to skin that cat that needn't mean wage cuts.

---

Voluntary redundancies?

We can't afford to borrow more in the short-term to pay the generous packages to tempt people to leave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dublinred

No private sector , they still fiddle the expenses and mileage in the public sector its considered one of the perks of the job along with sick pay.

---

If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes the truth.

Bit harsh there Macy. I know very few people, in either sector, that don't fiddle their expenses on some level. It's a sad fact of life, people take advantage if they think they'll get away with it. Usually they do, because the Irish tend to turn a blind eye to it. If they didn't, Bertie wouldn't have become Taoiseach, never mind lasted as long as he did. Sadly, it's our nature. (And it seems to be human nature, we just excel at it.)

In our place, mileage is checked using routeplanner (or similar). You may get away with a mile here or there, but it wouldn't be open to widespread abuse. Subsistence is at set rates.

To be honest, it's more the sick days thing that bugs me. An O'Leary myth that people have picked up on, run with, and it's now accepted as fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macy

To be honest, it's more the sick days thing that bugs me. An O'Leary myth that people have picked up on, run with, and it's now accepted as fact.

---

I have been told on a number of occasions, by people I trust, of new joiners being told by shop stewards to treat the sick day allowance as holiday and being threatened that they should use them in order that the "benefit" isn't removed.

IIRC sick days are published and whilst not all areas of the public sector have a problem, some have outlandish figures. The unions try to claim that the figures are inflated by a small number of long-term sick leave outliers but this is simply a smokescreen.

I worked for a period for a public sector organisation in the North and had an experience similiar to the one ORA mentions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

We can't afford to borrow more in the short-term to pay the generous packages to tempt people to leave.

---

Early retirement/ voluntary redundancy payments are exempt from the ECB ratio's (which is, afterall, the only thing driving the current correction plan timescale).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I have been told on a number of occasions, by people I trust, of new joiners being told by shop stewards to treat the sick day allowance as holiday and being threatened that they should use them in order that the "benefit" isn't removed.

---

Well that isn't my experience in the public sector, or of mates in the wider civil service. Definitely wasn't the advice I was giving out when I was a shop steward, was never told it, and was never even considered as a union policy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macy

Early retirement/ voluntary redundancy payments are exempt from the ECB ratio's (which is, afterall, the only thing driving the current correction plan timescale).

---

Of course it isn't the only thing driving the timescale! The need to cut borrowing isn't some esoteric EU-driven box-ticking exercise, it is money that we as a country are borrowing to run our public sector (which effectively now includes our banks).

As a country we are behaving equivalent to an individual funding their normal monthly outgoings on their credit card. OK occasionally for big purchases but guaranteed bankruptcy if its maintained as a habit.

That well know ultra leftist George Lee has proposed that the 5 year timescale is too severe and should be extended. It is the main driving force - yes the deficit needs to be addressed, but the timescale is driven by trying to keep onside with the ECB. Stop NAMA if the national debt is the big issue.

only way to look at it is that the goverment is a company (one that will never close), in any company when youre losing money, there are obvious places that the money is disappearing, and the holes have to be plugged, in this case it wages and expensis,

personally i cant see why they cant just set a limit where noone below that set limit will be affected by a pay cut, get the industrial average wage, anyone above it takes a pay cut, anyone below doesnt,

you have mutibillion euro companies paying there accountant staff 30-40,000 euro a year to do there job, thats private sector work, but id say the same job in the public sector pays higher, not to mention a guaranteed pension on retirement,

it really ****ed me off when they started complaining about having to pay for there state guaranteed pension, the cheek of it, if i paid 80 euro a week for the next 40 years of my employment and the economy goes bust in 39 years, ill be f***ed, and theyll be grand,

some of these people need to learn a bit of perspective, really come on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by don ramo

id say the same job in the public sector pays higher

---

Yeah, just because you (or INM) say so makes it true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by don ramo

it really ****ed me off when they started complaining about having to pay for there state guaranteed pension,

---

Started to pay? You mean apart from the 15% they were already paying.

You're falling for the Government and other right wingers plan hook, line and sinker Don Ramo. Devide and conquer, when it actually is worker against the elite. They're happy to fill us full of crap about needing pay cuts across the economy, but then use spurious stats to say they shouldn't have to pay more tax, tell us that we must bail out the bankers and developers for the guts of €100bn and totally ignore that it's their competition and privatisation agenda which has been the real driver of our uncompetitiveness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macy

it's their competition and privatisation agenda which has been the real driver of our uncompetitiveness.

---

..........you what now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

..........you what now?

---

We used to have one of the cheapest utility charges in the EU, since "competition" we now have one of the highest. How's our telecomms infrastructure done since privatisation in keeping up with EU norms?

Margaret Thatcher anyone?? - Stand Strong against those Commie Red Public Sector Trade Unions - Arthur Scargill Posturing and Fantasists living in a Jame Larkin never never land of whoopsy Ideology - Raise Taxes my Ass.....
Baseball Bats or Hurleys available for mid-november showdown with the unions - we'll be the ones at the back with a menacing presences and T-Shirts with image of Henry Ford.

I wonder how much the ICTU spent on the postal campaign that went out today. Full colour printing on the letter and the envelope, plus stickers, plus postage to every house in Ireland? Very odd.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I wonder how much the ICTU spent on the postal campaign that went out today. Full colour printing on the letter and the envelope, plus stickers, plus postage to every house in Ireland? Very odd.

---

Not at all Adam, when you think about it.

The next 6-12 months is the union movement's Alamo.

Either they win the battle and limit the budget impact to their members (at the expense of cuts elsewhere) and future Governments, probably for the next generation, will think twice before picking a fight with them
OR
they lose and as happened in the UK, within a few years unions go from having real bargaining power and influence, to a situation where they have nuisance value, at best.

No wonder ICTU is going all out.

I was thinking more about the methodology, cost is a side effect. I just get confused when I see a group representing organisations that are already in trouble for overpaying their managers, spending silly money on a massive mailshot, when, in this economic climate and political clusterfeck, any jackass could get exactly the same coverage with a carefully worded press release. I dunno, perhaps they have money to flush down the toilet. I just thought...

http://images.loqu.com/photos/252/12...g-it-wrong.jpg