Postcodes

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21/09/2009, 10:41 AM
pineapple stu

Postcodes

Following on from my rant against the retarded Lisbon campaign, the main evening news last night had a bit about how we're getting postcodes (again). The first argument forwarded in favour was that it's embarrassing to have to buy something online and get stuck at the bit where it asks you for a password. Seriously, WTF?! Have we as a race some sort of genetic line in our systems which makes us susceptible to the most retarded arguments ever?

There was someone later on who was saying it'd save lives because (and I think this was the gist of what he said) in an emergency, giving your postcode makes you easier to find. I usually give my address to the ambulance services, and if they don't know where it is, I'm sure the operator has google maps. Another argument given was that they have it on the continent, so we must catch up, which is another argument I hate.

On the actual subject, I'm kind of confused as to the point of postcodes, to be honest. We've gotten along grand for 130+ years without them, so what's changed now? Perhaps I'm just a traditionalist (in fact, I know I am), but I like the way our address system is uncomplicated by some random code put in the middle; seems like a waste of E50m. And I seem to recall the last time this was mooted (2005) that An Post came out and said there wasn't a need, while critics said it'd aid junk mail distribution. Will do a search for a link on that one.

And will politicians vote to reduce their house prices by doing away with Dublin 4?

Edit - one link referring to An Post's 2005 comments, where they said postcodes weren't needed. The article also notes that -

Quote:

Mr Whelan added that the new system would give An Post a new range of marketing tools to consumers and industry. "There are a lot of corporations internationally who would be very anxious to piggyback on the back of the new system once it's in," he said.

, which seems to me a very good reason not to have postcodes.
21/09/2009, 11:12 AM
Mr A

I think postcodes are useful in automating the sorting of mail. Um, can't think of anything else right now.
21/09/2009, 11:17 AM
Macy

There's nothing wrong with the system as is. The one of the main arguements in favour now appears to be based around Sat Navs, although god knows what excuse the Greens will find to fiddle with something like this whilst Rome burns. Not sure what the amount of junk mail will do for our carbon footprint.

I'd also worry that it'll just be an avenue for competition to an post - I don't think a reduction in service, which would be inevitable, would do for the consumer. It'll be an end to daily deliveries in rural areas, the closure of post offices and general downgrading of the service. A post code will make it much easier than having to develop a delivery system as An Post did (when they were told a few years ago, since the FF Government weren't going to introduce a post code).
21/09/2009, 11:25 AM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Macy

I'd also worry that it'll just be an avenue for competition to an post

On boards, it seems that's exactly the point. Apparently the postal service is getting deregulated from 2010, and An Post won't share their current sorting system, so we have to design a new one to allow new entries to the market because Monopoly Is Bad.
21/09/2009, 11:35 AM
redobit

The ESB have a system already in place which can identify individual premises all over the country. Us that and save some money in the process.
21/09/2009, 11:42 AM
pineapple stu

http://www.irishpostcodes.ie/

Use the seven digit postcode to find somewhere! No more asking people where they live, not learning how to spell correctly or getting lost using a map because you can't read it.

Someone should tell this lot we already have a seven-digit system which can accurately locate any place in the country; it's called the National Grid. Stick that in your sat nav and away you go. Saves the country millions. I assume that's free to use?

LOL at the site describing a seven-digit grid reference as "cumbersome" while proposing its own seven-digit system along the lines of W5K 59VN. Very straightforward, that one.
21/09/2009, 11:47 AM
OneRedArmy

As well as ESB having their own private code system, An Post also have one, and they are the main opponent of publicly available postcodes for the simple reason that it makes it easier for potential competitors to challenge their monopoly.

Personally having lived in a number of countries, I think An Post provide an fairly poor residential service, at least in Dublin. I've lived in a number of different areas of the city and whilst I'm not there during the day to verify, I'll be damned if I get anywhere near a daily service. Evidenced by the bunching of mail deliveries a few times a week I reckon its one day out of two at best. A bit like bank opening hours, no weekend deliveries is a relic of the past also.

Bizarrely, my parents live in relatively rural Donegal and have a much better service.
21/09/2009, 11:57 AM
brendy_�ire

With postcodes, mail can be sorted automatically by reading the postcode. Cuts time, effort and, most importantly, cost.

Makes sense, should have had it years ago.
21/09/2009, 12:04 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by brendy_�ire

With postcodes, mail can be sorted automatically by reading the postcode. Cuts time, effort and, most importantly, cost.

This.
21/09/2009, 12:09 PM
pineapple stu

Why not sort post by, say, the town it's going to?

Unless you're saying computers can read my scribbled "W5K 59VN" better than they can read my scribbled "Greystones"?
21/09/2009, 12:15 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Why not sort post by, say, the town it's going to?

Unless you're saying computers can read my scribbled "W5K 59VN" better than they can read my scribbled "Greystones"?

Sure, if you want your post to wind up in Ballincollig or Limerick or something. Postcodes are unique. Placenames are very messy for a computer to deal with automatically. It could be done, but there will be more errors and the cost of the system, both in development and maintenance, would be much higher.

The argument against it is basically that you don't like it, which I don't find very compelling.
21/09/2009, 12:19 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Unless you're saying computers can read my scribbled "W5K 59VN" better than they can read my scribbled "Greystones"?

My understanding is that they can, to quite a significantly higher level of accuracy.

Bear in mind also that handwritten addresses form a small minority of mail.
21/09/2009, 12:21 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by John83

Sure, if you want your post to wind up in Ballincollig or Limerick or something. Postcodes are unique.

Placenames are unique too. Change a 5 to an S in the postcode, and where do you end up?

My argument is that the current system works, so I don't see a need to spend millions on a new system. Unlike ORA (for right or wrong), I don't care if I miss out on post one day, and I don't care about competition in the postal market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Bear in mind also that handwritten addresses form a small minority of mail.

This is true, although the flip side of that is that it also means my "Greystones" is quite legible.

How does it deal with addresses in different places on the envelope? Or does it just scan the whole thing till it finds the postcode?

Computer technology has been developed to the stage where we can make a good stab at reading thousands of car registrations as they drive by on a motorway, and then use that info to bill them E3.50. It seems to me that the same software could read and sort an address without the need for a postcode simply by grouping by county, town and road.
21/09/2009, 12:25 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Placenames are unique too.

Are you serious?!

Of course they aren't. Grew up in Inch County Donegal regularly receiving post for Inch County Kerry.

Leaving aside the motives and implications of a change, I can't see how you can query how a postcode system doesn't capture locations at a more granular and consistent level than the current approach?:confused:
21/09/2009, 12:26 PM
pineapple stu

You've just answered your own query with the different county names. And that's before you get to the specific road in Inch you're looking for.
21/09/2009, 12:31 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You've just answered your own query with the different county names. And that's before you get to the specific road in Inch you're looking for.

People either didn't put the county in or An Post ignored it.

As for the road........in rural Ireland you don't have roads in an address! You have parishes, townlands, or hinterlands or a combination therein.
21/09/2009, 12:32 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Placenames are unique too. Change a 5 to an S in the postcode, and where do you end up?

With an error due to a badly designed code. Engineers do think of these things.

Quote:

My argument is that the current system works, so I don't see a need to spend millions on a new system.

Spending a few million on a system that'll save a couple of million a year is a good investment. I think you're willfully ignoring this point now because of your emotional rejection of postcodes.

Quote:

How does it deal with addresses in different places on the envelope? Or does it just scan the whole thing till it finds the postcode?

Yes. There's a whole field of computer science devoted to getting computers to recognise stuff like this:
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...en&btnG=Search

Quote:

Computer technology has been developed to the stage where we can make a good stab at reading thousands of car registrations as they drive by on a motorway, and then use that info to bill them E3.50. It seems to me that the same software could read and sort an address without the need for a postcode simply by grouping by county, town and road.

You don't see any comparison here? A number plate, which goes:
09 D 15337
97 W 988
01 CE 1055
and so on? Nothing like a post code at all there.
21/09/2009, 12:39 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

As for the road........in rural Ireland you don't have roads in an address! You have parishes, townlands, or hinterlands or a combination therein.

Still the same point though; the combination will be unique.

Quote:

Originally Posted by John83

You don't see any comparison here? A number plate, which goes:
09 D 15337
97 W 988
01 CE 1055
and so on? Nothing like a post code at all there.

You're right - letters and numbers; nothing like a place name at all.
21/09/2009, 12:44 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Still the same point though; the combination will be unique.

You're right - letters and numbers; nothing like a place name at all.

I've studied computer vision, automated recognition and other aspects of this kind of problem. When I said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by John83

Sure, if you want your post to wind up in Ballincollig or Limerick or something. Postcodes are unique. Placenames are very messy for a computer to deal with automatically. It could be done, but there will be more errors and the cost of the system, both in development and maintenance, would be much higher.

I wasn't kidding.
21/09/2009, 2:17 PM
dahamsta

It doesn't address the underlying poijnt though: An Post already has an automated sorting system that works very well. I can't cite statistics but I have seen them and their hit rate is very high. If it ain't broke.
21/09/2009, 2:33 PM
Macy

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

On boards, it seems that's exactly the point. Apparently the postal service is getting deregulated from 2010, and An Post won't share their current sorting system, so we have to design a new one to allow new entries to the market because Monopoly Is Bad.

Oh goody, just look how competition has driven down utility prices... I think it's An Post won't share their system for nothing, after spending the money developing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

As well as ESB having their own private code system, An Post also have one, and they are the main opponent of publicly available postcodes for the simple reason that it makes it easier for potential competitors to challenge their monopoly.

As above, it's available to anyone that wants to pay the licence fee! As I understand it An Post are actually in favour of it, as they see the short term gain of the increase in junk mail, and the management couldn't give a flying about the social role of the company

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Personally having lived in a number of countries, I think An Post provide an fairly poor residential service, at least in Dublin. I've lived in a number of different areas of the city and whilst I'm not there during the day to verify, I'll be damned if I get anywhere near a daily service. Evidenced by the bunching of mail deliveries a few times a week I reckon its one day out of two at best. A bit like bank opening hours, no weekend deliveries is a relic of the past also.

Have to say I'm happy with our service, both in delivery and the local post office. Our post goes to the wifes home place (our choice) (along with the inlaws) - they'd be post everyday but not necessarily for everyone. Bunching happens, so it's some conclusion that it means they're not doing daily deliveries. Any evidence, rather than a hunch? One things for sure, the service isn't going to get better if it was purely commercially driven - we'd probably be 15 miles from a post office, a couple of deliveries a week, no parcel service (you'd be told to pick it up).

As a general btw - the cost is going to be at least �20 million to develop a system. Still, it's not like we were cutting cancer vacinnes that cost half that or anything...
21/09/2009, 2:47 PM
Sam_Heggy

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

It doesn't address the underlying poijnt though: An Post already has an automated sorting system that works very well. I can't cite statistics but I have seen them and their hit rate is very high. If it ain't broke.

:D Intended?
21/09/2009, 2:48 PM
Pauro 76

I love the quaint Irish rural way of..

Townsland,
Village,
County.

It's the one thing that's stayed the same with us for generations...
21/09/2009, 2:58 PM
dahamsta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_Heggy

:D Intended?

Heh, no. :)
21/09/2009, 3:21 PM
Bluebeard

There is no choice we have to go for postcodes. Every year on my birthday I receive no cards or presents. I ask my friends and family, and they all assure me that they put it in the post the week before. About 50% of those cards make it to me on a good year normally a couple of weeks afterwards, and almost none of the presents. There must be something wrong with the system, the same way there is with the buses (a similar story, but for a different thread).
21/09/2009, 3:31 PM
Bluebeard

Went to that site about the PON Codes, or PONC as they want to call them. Correct me if I am wrong, but is "ponc" not the Irish for "trouble"?
21/09/2009, 4:26 PM
kingdom hoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluebeard

Went to that site about the PON Codes, or PONC as they want to call them. Correct me if I am wrong, but is "ponc" not the Irish for "trouble"?

No, I think ponc is the Irish for "another daft wastage of public resources in recessionary times."

Seriously though, the only contexts I've come across ponc in Irish vernacular is in internet addresses when it means dot (like foot ponc ie for example), or as a crude translation of punk (like, "who the flip does that ponc think he is, coming in here, turning on his rubbish ponc music?").
22/09/2009, 10:18 AM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

It doesn't address the underlying poijnt though: An Post already has an automated sorting system that works very well.

I knew there was something really obvious that I was overlooking; thanks Adam.
22/09/2009, 1:04 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

It doesn't address the underlying poijnt though: An Post already has an automated sorting system that works very well. I can't cite statistics but I have seen them and their hit rate is very high. If it ain't broke.

This is interesting. I was under the impression that a significant proportion of their sorting was still manual - not a huge proportion, but enough to raise costs substantially. Irritatingly hard to argue this without more information though.
22/09/2009, 1:18 PM
dahamsta

AFAIK automation started in 2005 and the bulk of their mail is automatically sorted now. I think I saw it on telly, which is why I don't have stats, and I was surrpised at the time at their hit rate, the amount of mail sidelined for manual checking - by video - was very, very small.
22/09/2009, 1:23 PM
soccerc

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

AFAIK automation started in 2005 and the bulk of their mail is automatically sorted now. I think I saw it on telly, which is why I don't have stats, and I was surrpised at the time at their hit rate, the amount of mail sidelined for manual checking - by video - was very, very small.

It was a decade before that automated sorting began.

Hit rate for standard sized DL and CL is 85% +/- 2% for typed addresses.

For hand written it's considerably lower.
22/09/2009, 1:25 PM
John83

85% for print? That's not great. Any source on that?
22/09/2009, 1:40 PM
dahamsta

I was under the impression it was way higher than that, high nineties. And it was the handwriting recognition I was truly surprised by. Perhaps it was another sorting system, but I was sure it was Irish.
22/09/2009, 1:46 PM
soccerc

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I was under the impression it was way higher than that, high nineties. And it was the handwriting recognition I was truly surprised by. Perhaps it was another sorting system, but I was sure it was Irish.

The figures I used were for the first OCR sorting machines installed in the Dublin mails centre with an early version of the software. One of the problems at that time was large mailers were still using 9 and 15 pin dot matrix printers.

As I finished working on that project in '96 I can only suggest there have been vast inprovements plus handwritten correspondence was dropping considerably year on year back then.
22/09/2009, 1:52 PM
John83

Oh, I thought you meant the current figures.
22/09/2009, 2:50 PM
dahamsta

They had horrendous problems at the start, but sure that's par for the course with a state or semi-state technology rollout. The postal workers probably couldn't figure out where the pencils went. :)
22/09/2009, 9:52 PM
Billsthoughts

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

My understanding is that they can, to quite a significantly higher level of accuracy.

Bear in mind also that handwritten addresses form a small minority of mail.

99 per cent accuracy.
22/09/2009, 11:19 PM
dahamsta

I actually thought it was higher than that. Where did you get that figure from?
23/09/2009, 10:44 AM
Billsthoughts

Quote:

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I actually thought it was higher than that. Where did you get that figure from?

My oul lad was head of post offices in ireland for years. he is also on the board of the company that operates this system. yeah think it is higher. was asking him about this recently cause we had a similar problem in work. might be 99.9 per cent...