Trapattonti's lack of experimentation

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17/09/2009, 3:32 PM
tetsujin1979

Trapattonti's lack of experimentation

One of the criticisms levelled against Trapattoni over the course of his reign is the lack of experimentation in the side. I've always felt this was slightly unfair, in part because of the time he's been in charge, and also the number of players actually available to him.
So I've done some investigation on this, turns out he's actually awarded nearly as many new caps in a little over a year than Brian Kerr did in his entire reign!
I've left the new caps awarded by Mick out of the equation because he was in charge for a significantly longer than time than any of the managers since him, so obviously he's given far more debuts.
Here's my findings:

Code:

Manager Players First Cap Home Team Result AwayTeam Giovanni Darren O'Dea 08 September 2009 Ireland 1-0 South Africa Trapattoni Eddie Nolan 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria Leon Best 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria Kieren Westwood 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria Sean St Ledger 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria Liam Lawrence 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria Kevin Foley 29 May 2009 Ireland 1-1 Nigeria Noel Hunt 19 November 2008 Ireland 2-3 Poland Keith Andrews 19 November 2008 Ireland 2-3 Poland Caleb Folan 15 October 2008 Ireland 1-0 Cyprus Wesley Hoolahan 29 May 2008 Ireland 1-0 Colombia Glenn Whelan 24 May 2008 Ireland 1-1 Serbia Damien Delaney 24 May 2008 Ireland 1-1 Serbia Total new caps: 13 Steve Darron Gibson 22 August 2007 Denmark 0-4 Ireland Staunton Peter Murphy 26 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Bolivia Joe Lapira 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Joe Gamble 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Andy Keogh 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Alan Bennett 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Stephen O'Halloran 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Daryl Murphy 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Alex Bruce 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Colin Doyle 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Darren Potter 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Joe O'Cearuill 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Stephen Gleeson 23 May 2007 Ireland 1-1 Ecuador Anthony Stokes 07 February 2007 San Marino 1-2 Ireland Stephen Hunt 07 February 2007 San Marino 1-2 Ireland Shane Long 07 February 2007 San Marino 1-2 Ireland Paul Mc Shane 11 October 2006 Ireland 1-1 Czech Republic Alan O'Brien 16 August 2006 Ireland 0-4 Holland Stephen Kelly 24 May 2006 Ireland 0-1 Chile Wayne Henderson 01 March 2006 Ireland 3-0 Sweden Joey O'Brien 01 March 2006 Ireland 3-0 Sweden Kevin Doyle 01 March 2006 Ireland 3-0 Sweden Stephen Ireland 01 March 2006 Ireland 3-0 Sweden Total new caps: 23 Brian Stephen Elliott 16 November 2004 Ireland 1-0 Croatia Kerr Jonathan Macken 18 August 2004 Ireland 1-1 Bulgaria Michael Doyle 05 June 2004 Holland 0-1 Ireland Aidan McGeady 02 June 2004 Jamaica 0-1 Ireland Clive Clarke 29 May 2004 Nigeria 3-0 Ireland Martin Rowlands 27 May 2004 Ireland 1-0 Romania Jonathan Douglas 28 April 2004 Poland 0-0 Ireland Jason Byrne 28 April 2004 Poland 0-0 Ireland Paddy Kenny 31 March 2004 Ireland 2-1 Czech Republic Liam Miller 31 March 2004 Ireland 2-1 Czech Republic Andy Reid 18 November 2003 Ireland 3-0 Canada John Thompson 18 November 2003 Ireland 3-0 Canada Joe Murphy 09 September 2003 Ireland 2-2 Turkey Alan Quinn 30 April 2003 Ireland 1-0 Norway Alan Lee 30 April 2003 Ireland 1-0 Norway Total new caps: 15

While this isn't going to end the debate, I'd hope it goes some way towards proving he's not as inflexible as previously assumed
I'd also argue that more of the players awarded by Trapattoni have gone on to become mainstays in the squad, than either of his immediate predecessors.

PS feel free to check the facts, I'm not 100%
17/09/2009, 3:35 PM
gustavo

Kerr was also noted for his lack of awarding new caps though AFAIR
17/09/2009, 4:00 PM
geysir

On a competitive debut basis
Kerr : Elliot Miller A. Reid
Stan : Doyle, Hunt, Kelly, J OBrien, Ireland, McShane and McGeady
Trap : Gibson, Best, St Ledger, N. Hunt, Andrews, Whelan and Folan

Trap has experimented within the rigid system.
It is the rigidity of the system that it open to debate.
17/09/2009, 4:10 PM
Wolfie

Lets not forget how bad a shape we were in before Trapp took over.

A rigid system was required to shore up the ship and to make us remotely competitive again.

Many of us here highlighted how many of the team didn't know their role or what was expected of them under Staunton.

We're creatively limited - but we're organised, competitive and relatively difficult to break down.

Its not ideal - but its a hell of an improvement.
17/09/2009, 4:39 PM
Acornvilla

my post

just be glad your not from san marino:D
17/09/2009, 4:51 PM
paul_oshea

well said wolfie, and if we qualify i hope the friendles expand the boundaries of that system, increasing the diamater of those boundaries everytime. If not and Trap stays on then I hope 2 years of being competitive and organised will allow for us to be more creative and not stuck to the one rigid system.
17/09/2009, 5:08 PM
NeilMcD

Why cant we be Spain, why the hell did Trap not turn us into Spain, I want the money back. Sack him now.
17/09/2009, 5:51 PM
The Legend

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Why cant we be Spain, why the hell did Trap not turn us into Spain, I want the money back. Sack him now.

You're right, Paddy O' Torres and Mick Fabregas would have played under Stan!
17/09/2009, 6:27 PM
geysir

Are all things so cut and dried?
The criticism that Tets answered has already been examined in another thread after the Cyprus game. Here he maps out definitively that Trap has experimented.

Is there no room for debate without being sarcastic that any question means Trap is cr�p?

Is there reasonable confidence that we have all the players we need to play the game to get the results in the upcoming games, especially considering how play off games can go?
17/09/2009, 7:44 PM
briancool21

i think the main problem is ireland play as dull as **** but i'd rather this than playing attractive football and being smashed by cyprus
17/09/2009, 8:10 PM
mypost

If we won 5-0 in Cyprus, there'd be "pundits" whinging why we didn't win 6.

Trap has turned a bunch of Ragball Rovers into World Cup contention in just over 18 months. So what if it's "turgid", "rigid", and hard on the eyes? We haven't qualified for anything since 2002, playing so-called "better" football.

Just be grateful that we are where we are, and not in Bulgaria's position.
17/09/2009, 8:47 PM
tricky_colour

To play attractive football you have to take risks, and that means you usually end up on the losing side unless you have exceptional players. Boring but safe usually beats attractive and and risky.
17/09/2009, 9:12 PM
Stuttgart88

I think it's great to see a commonsense consensus here. It ain't pretty but it's pretty effective. That'll do for me after the last few years.
17/09/2009, 11:11 PM
Crosby87

How much experimenting can he do? There is so much pressure on every game. And I am starting to see friendlys do not mean anything on any level especially evaluation.

But anyway I hear in the 60s Trap lived in Berkeley and did quite a bit of experimenting. Maybe that was enough.
18/09/2009, 4:12 AM
SkStu

theres a difference though if you ask me. You have to really look into the depth of talent that was available at each stage. About 10 or more players in Stans list should never have been even contemplated for the squad, let alone a cap. Kerr, as well as getting Roy Keane back, had a bit more talent to choose from previously but he also had a healthy chunk of experienced pro's and talent already there.

Arguably the pool of talent is wider for Trappatoni and i feel he hasnt looked seriously at enough of it. This is my qualm with Trappatoni. He hasnt always debuted the best players we have and took too long to call up a couple of players. Also he has been too quick to drop a decent player who loved playing for his country for, lets be honest, a minor incident.

I admire the stability and togetherness that he has brought to the team and it is great to feel the buzz of possible qualification in the air again but, i just dont like watching his team and the way it plays.

I dont think its unreasonable to question his decisions and selections, it provokes good debate. I dont want him sacked (you cant argue with the state of Group 8) its not an agenda or vendetta, people have just got to get a little less sensitive about the questions that are asked.
18/09/2009, 7:24 AM
jbyrne

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancool21

i think the main problem is ireland play as dull as **** but i'd rather this than playing attractive football and being smashed by cyprus

not always. the match in bari, half the match away to bulgaria, away to georgia and montenegro were all occasions were we played decent football
18/09/2009, 7:46 AM
dr_peepee

The stats don't show Trapp not knowing Delap was Irish last year. Or his lack of a presence at club football (until recently enough and I'd say that was down to pressure).

The problem is Trapps rigid windows of oppertunity for me.

Cappello has the balance of continuity and scanning just right I think.
18/09/2009, 7:57 AM
Acornvilla

well hore capello so!
18/09/2009, 8:06 AM
RogerMilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancool21

i think the main problem is ireland play as dull as **** but i'd rather this than playing attractive football and being smashed by cyprus

or not playing attractive football and being smashed by cyprus :D
18/09/2009, 8:11 AM
RogerMilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkStu

Also he has been too quick to drop a decent player who loved playing for his country for, lets be honest, a minor incident..

i actually think this is a cultural thing , we see it as a minor incident as might alex ferguson( who came to get roy keane out of jail!) stephen kenny or even jack o'connor but to trap a fella not heading to bed and allegedly being abusive when he is repeatedly told to might be just far too unprofessional for him to want to have to deal with going forward.. and as i have said before. it sent a message.. reids career sleeps with the fishes..
18/09/2009, 9:29 AM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by dr_peepee

The stats don't show Trapp not knowing Delap was Irish last year. Or his lack of a presence at club football (until recently enough and I'd say that was down to pressure).

The problem is Trapps rigid windows of oppertunity for me.

Cappello has the balance of continuity and scanning just right I think.

You'd have to query Brady & Givens' input on Delap.

I trust Trapp's judgment. I don't trust the judgment of Givens.

The timing of the new caps is an issue to a good extent - St. Ledger was capped too late for example - but in most cases it's all been marginal for me.
18/09/2009, 10:04 AM
tetsujin1979

one other thing I noticed was that, apart from Folan's 10-second cameo against Cyprus, all of Trapattoni's new caps have come in friendlies. Which shows he has been using the friendlies, and the B internationals, for experimentation with the players available to him, if not the system he plays them in.
18/09/2009, 10:22 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

one other thing I noticed was that, apart from Folan's 10-second cameo against Cyprus, all of Trapattoni's new caps have come in friendlies. Which shows he has been using the friendlies, and the B internationals, for experimentation with the players available to him, if not the system he plays them in.

.... also the majority of new players capped by Trapattoni were involved in either the Portugal training camp or the Nottingham Forest B game before being capped.
18/09/2009, 10:38 AM
MariborKev

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerMilla

i actually think this is a cultural thing , we see it as a minor incident as might alex ferguson( who came to get roy keane out of jail!) stephen kenny or even jack o'connor

Stephen Kenny has transferred players out of the club for less.......
18/09/2009, 11:16 AM
paul_oshea

Stutts, whats the story with you and geysir in your 3 line posts:

Address the problem

Find a (possible) solution

Conclusion based on (possible) solution
18/09/2009, 11:49 AM
Murfinator

ehhh there's no problem and no reason to criticise. Every uncapped player who isn't on the squad right now don't deserve to be, simple as.
18/09/2009, 1:42 PM
dr_peepee

True... But ,for example, what had Trap seen of Liam Lawrence to decide Andy Keogh was the better option to play wide right against Italy? (This is not about Blaming Keogh for Italy's goal. Ironically someone got in behind Lawrence against SA much the same as what happended Keogh for Italy's goal. )

Stutts has said these things are marginal, and I understand that. But I also think only countries with strength and depth in playing resources such as England can absorb the marginals. I don't think we can. We have to be scanning for every possible advantage in every position. The scanning involved should extend to literally a couple of form players per squad as well as the B matches, Friendlies and get togethers. Not to mention more of a presence at club games. (This is after improving, admittedly).
18/09/2009, 3:57 PM
Stuttgart88

Yeah, Lawrence is another that should have been capped / selected for a squad sooner, though he did call him up for the Forest game.

I think it's clear that Trapp tries new players in friendlies, and only in friendlies. He obviously likes them to have first hand experience of his way of doing things before trusting them in competitive action.
18/09/2009, 3:58 PM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Stutts, whats the story with you and geysir in your 3 line posts:

Address the problem

Find a (possible) solution

Conclusion based on (possible) solution

And you call me autistic?
18/09/2009, 8:48 PM
stiffler

in trap we trust!
18/09/2009, 11:44 PM
Crosby87

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

And you call me autistic?

Thats offensive to Autistic people!:D
20/09/2009, 1:08 AM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crosby87

How much experimenting can he do? There is so much pressure on every game. And I am starting to see friendlys do not mean anything on any level especially evaluation.

Trap isn't an experimental boss. His role is to get us to the World Cup. Stan did an ocean of experimenting in the last campaign and we know where that got us. You can't have it every way, either or, will have to do.
20/09/2009, 11:46 AM
geysir

Trap does plenty of experimenting the friendly games and once satisfied he will he will test the theory in the competitive game. He has given out plenty of competitive debuts, a similar number to Stan.
20/09/2009, 11:48 AM
NeilMcD

Lads if you want experimenting, Scientists are the people you want and not football managers, and if you want a good Scientist, head down to Waterford.
20/09/2009, 12:03 PM
NeilMcD

http://www.tribune.ie/sport/soccer/a...th-ugly-stick/
20/09/2009, 12:09 PM
Jicked

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

http://www.tribune.ie/sport/soccer/a...th-ugly-stick/

Good spot that, and a great opening paragraph :D

Quote:

FROM time to time you cannot help but wonder what Giovanni Trapattoni makes of us all. The Italian is mostly polite in the face of questioning and any anger that does occasionally escape is usually tinged with a touch of humour so as to take the sting from it. But when the Ireland manager hears that some in the country feel that we are capable of playing more attractive football � and in a more passionate manner too � and still come within two points of securing second spot in a highly competitive qualifying group, does he sit back over an espresso with Marco Tardelli and laugh at the very thought of an all-singing, all-dancing, fist-pumping side tearing the world's best apart with an artistic flourish? Or does he sit there with his assistant and merely feel sorry for the level of delusion that seems to affect a considerable (and vocal) minority of the international side's supporters and critics?

In a briefing with journalists on Wednesday, there were moments of real exasperation in the Italian's demeanour. When talk turned to Andy Reid, Trapattoni wore a face � for a moment, just a moment � that suggested that he could not believe that some people were still pushing the case of an enigmatic, unfit footballer, a hybrid between a winger and central midfielder who is not trusted by his club manager to start and finish a Premier League game. "You sit on the bench and make a team and after you can see why or no, you can see why choose [Reid] or why not choose," he answered one inquisitor in a fiery fashion and not long after he appeared equally angered by the suggestion that he didn't allow his players to pass the ball around. "If you ask the players [that], I want to be there to hear what they say. If my players say that is what I do then that is a different story but if you dream in the night this question, I cannot answer you when the question is not true."

You do have to wonder what Trap and Tardelli make of the whole experience thus far! That article is probably the best reading of the Irish squad i've seen in a while...spot on about people thinking Trap can't see that Kilbane isn't crash hot or the centre mid isn't creative, yet people don't see that he goes with it for a reason.
20/09/2009, 12:21 PM
geysir

From the article
"Perhaps the greatest endorsement of Trapattoni's reign so far was the decision by RTE to broadcast the Italy v Bulgaria match during the week but that the great Irish public wanted the home side to lose to keep hopes of automatic qualification alive"

Not quite, a draw was what most people including Trap wanted.