to represent the IFA team post-1921 and pre-1950 when it was still organised on an All Ireland basis. Any help or evidence appricated.
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to represent the IFA team post-1921 and pre-1950 when it was still organised on an All Ireland basis. Any help or evidence appricated.
I'm sure I've seen a St. Patrick's Cross (red saltire on white background) used to represent the pre-partition team somewhere, but that may be a retrospective convention.
I would hazard a guess at the Union Flag but no evidence for this other than it would have been the country's official flag.
I would have thought so too, but as David points out, it's never had official status there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheridan
Interesting question. Tbh, despite our near-obsession with flags in NI(!), I'm not sure there will have been any flag flown to represent the IFA (officially, at least).
David's guess at the Union Flag might seem plausible, except that during the period in question, the IFA only played British Championship games versus Eng/Scot/Wales, therefore the UF would have been a bit pointless, seeing as it is just as representative of their opponents as the IFA. Perhaps the UF only was flown at all British Championship matches?
Anyhow, the IFA were not members of FIFA until just after WWII, nor entrants into the World Cup, so there was no need to demonstrate their individual identity to anyone outside the UK.
And the NI flag (more properly known as the "Ulster Banner") was not devised until 1953.
Curiously enough, I think I read read recently that the IFA adopted a shirt badge incorporating shamrocks (around 1930?), in order to re-emphasise their (All-)Ireland credentials vis-a-vis the FAIFS. Not unlike the current Ireland Rugby shirt badge, iirc this was v.similar to the FAIFS badge. I can find out for sure, if you like.
Having said all that, I strongly suspect that Linfield flew the UF over Windsor during that period (they certainly do today) - it might not have been taken down for NI/Ireland games of the time.
Currently, the only flags flown at NI games are the NI flag, the national flag of the visitors, and the UEFA or FIFA flag for European Championship or World Cup games.
But the IFA saw itself as representing Ireland and not just Northern Ireland during the said time period. The IFA wasn't offically part of FIFA during those years either so perhaps the issue of a flag was never an issue - ie the IFA team was more of an exhibition team and, as such, did not necessarily need a flag.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
The IFA wasn't a member of FIFA full stop (i.e. officially or unofficially).Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Covered in my earlier post.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
"Exhibition"? Actually, Ireland were founder members of the World's oldest international competition, the British ("Home") Championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Indeed the IFA staged the world's first ever competitive international football match, in Belfast in January 1884 versus Scotland*.
* - I'd appreciate if you didn't enquire about the score...:o
While the British Home Championship would be considered an international competition in the present day, during the 1920s up to the 1950s it was a domestic competition. This is because none of the British teams were members the governing body FIFA during this time and, as such, not recognised as international football teams. As the British Home Championship was in effect a competition between domestic "home" regions/nations, there perhaps was no need for the IFA team to be represented by a flag.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Are you trying to say that when eg in 1923, England played Belgium home and away, France away and Sweden away (twice) that these are not recognised as full internationals, with caps awarded to both teams etc, because England were not a subscribing member of FIFA?Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Utter Garbage!
http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/eng-intres20.html
Think Basque Country and Catalonia if it's difficult for you to understand. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Balls! FIFA recognises the "Home" Countries as having established international football during the last three decades of the 19th Century:Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/...toryfifa1.html
"When the idea of founding an international football federation began taking shape in Europe, the intention of those involved was to recognise the role of the English who had founded their Football Association back in 1863. Hirschman, secretary of the Netherlands Football Association, turned to the Football Association. Its secretary, FJ Wall, did accept the proposal but progress stalled while waiting for the Executive Committee of the Football Association, the International FA Board and the associations of Scotland, Wales and Ireland to give their opinion about the matter"
Or are you claiming that international football only existed post-1904? :rolleyes:
You'll be sourcing events in 12th Century China next .... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
No. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
so is it safe to say that there is no conclusive proof either way that a flag on any description was used either in an official or unofficial capacity?
(Originally Posted by EalingGreen)
"FIFA recognises the 'Home' Countries as having established international football during the last three decades of the 19th Century"
Why would I do that? :confused: I'm quite happy with FIFA's own website as authority for what I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
(Originally Posted by EalingGreen)
"Or are you claiming that international football only existed post-1904?"
Therefore if international football matches were played pre-1904 and were recognised as such by FIFA, then such matches are as "official" as any other, including international competitive fixtures between the four "home" nations in the British Championship?Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
That's about the height of it(!), though if I had to plump for something, I'd guess that "David" got it right in post #3 (above).Quote:
Originally Posted by sligobhoy67
I don't know re the flag.
I need to confirm with the Malcolm Brodie book but the IFA did play games other than British championship during the period.
They toured Norway in 1922 and played 2 games at least 1 was always recognized as a full International. They also played in France around that time.
They played South Africa in 1924 which is considered a full International by South Africa and was reclassified as such by the IFA in the past 10 years.
In 1947 the 4 home nations bailed out FIFA by playing a game at Hampden - a joint team met the Rest of Europe - our Johnny Carey captained the rest of Europe. Part of the deal has involved a permanent vice president of FIFA for the home nations.
Good points, Gspain. If you've not already seen it, I'm sure you'll find the following from JCD's (excellent) Blog to be both comprehensive and reliable:Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...nationals.html
P.S. Re. the UK vs Rest of Europe game in 1947, Johnny Carey could also be argued to be "ours" (i.e. NI's), just as you have a claim to "our" Jackie 'Sausage' Vernon, who was in opposition to Carey that day:
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...nny-carey.html
http://nifootball.blogspot.com/2006/...ie-vernon.html
ealing green what's you take on creating an all ireland team now is there steadfast opposition to it in the protestant community ?
I'm ready to listen, the moment the FAI realises its mistake and applies to come back into the loving arms of the Irish Football Association - "Original and (George) Best" ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
Nothing personal, TS, but with my history on this Board, if I were to even to start to answer that point, I'd not only have the thread closed quicker than you can type "Dahamsta", but I might even be putting the entire Board in peril! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
P.S. I wouldn't dream of asking you to trawl through my previous posts on such matters - you've never done me any harm! - but if you're really interested, pm me and I might reply if/when I get time.
I'm sure the FAI is content with the eligibility of its position as Ireland's football association. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Without wanting to hijack SligoBhoy's thread, a quick flag-related question for Ealing Green and any other NI fans-
I noticed a while back in a photo from the famous win over Spain in '82 that the team name ("Irland de Nord" or summat like that) was represented on the big scoreboard on a background of the tricolour! Sorry i havent got any pics to hand. (And with relevance to the thread, i'm not sure if the tricolour was 'flown' anywhere around the ground.)
Could well have been a wind up by the hosts, rather than stupidity/laziness. I guess given the basic graphics on the scoreboard it would have been very difficult to replicate the NI flag itself, but still!
I just wondered if this was noticed by the NI fans at the time, and if so, whether it caused any controversy. Probably not given that yous were probably too busy celebrating at the time!
Sorry, i warned you that it was a geeky post..:o
Id hazard a guess at yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
Maybe im way off the mark but I always interpreted that Domestic Football in Ireland as a whole is a different animal to the likes of Rugby or GAA in its supporter base which leads us to understand how Football has not overcome partitionist splits like the GAA or Rugby.
That being where the GAA predominantly comes from a history of rural support primarily being of the Nationalist variety because of its much documented history of being entangled with cultural nationalism at the turn of the century. So therefore those who support GAA North and South of the border are largely cut from the same cloth and therefore an All Ireland League and championship has little or no resistance.
Then with Rugby which historically has its roots in the upper class of the Island (bar Limerick of course), both protestant and catholic has much the same situation as the GAA. Most of the wars, skirmishes and disputes in this Island have historically been waged through the working class of both the Catholic and Protestant communities (with some obvious noteable exceptions) so thus there would not be the same emnity between the respective creeds in the upper class, obviously there will be an element but not to such an extent to make an All Ireland Rugby League unworkable.
Then we come to Domestic Football which historically in Ireland has its roots in the urban working class of Ireland. Both Protestant and Catholic. As the majority of wars and disputes have been waged through the working class, even the previous 30 years of troubles its understandable where there will be an emnity between both sides of the divide who participate in Football. When most people in the south hear of The Bogside, The Falls, Short Strand etc they think Republican areas or the like, when in reality they are working class areas. Just as when people down here hear of the Shankill, Mount Vernon or the Fountain they think Loyalist when in reality they are the working class areas of the other side of the divide. Thus it only makes sense that there will continue to be a partitionist league and partitionist National Team in Ireland with the historical backdrop of Irish Domestic Football supporters.
There are of course exceptions to the rule and this is far from 100% accurate, merely dealing with generalisations of course, but it certainly helps me understand the partitionist divide in football in Ireland.
I think it has less to do with class rather than the fact that football split into 2 associations at the time of independence for what is now the Republic of Ireland.
Football has strong middle class roots anyway on this island with gentleman amateur teams such as Bohemians and Cliftonville.
Peter Byrne's official history of the FAI 1996 (updated edition due shortly - hopefully) is generally accepted as being accurate on this. There are extracts posted on this site if you care to search.
The IFA and other "home" associations did everything to stop the FAI as they considered the IFA as the governing body for football on this island even post independence. In 1950 FIFA finally forced the IFA to stop picking southern born players. FIFA had to intervene again in 1954 to decide on the term "Ireland".
NI fans are very proud of their team and certainly don't want to lose it which in reality is what would happen. They see us as their main rivals and hence a merger to them is the equivalent of us merging with England.
Totally opposed. Not interested in merging with other teams. See threads passim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
There's steadfast opposition within the Northern Ireland fans community.Quote:
is there steadfast opposition to it in the protestant community ?
Indeed many clubs were formed along those lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
But as those clubs grew you can trace the majority of their support base and where they priamrily hailed from.
With Cliftonville historically they pulled support from the North Belfast/Ardoyne Nationalist community which as im sure you are well aware is predominantly working class. Now of course its different as they pull alot of support from West Belfast also, the collapse of Belfast Celtic has alot to do with that.
As with the likes of Bohs which grew out of the Phibsborough area and the North Dublin Area which is also predominantly working class.
In fact you will find the vast majority of Domestic Football Grounds are actually located in working class areas as this is where they garnered the overwhelming amount of their support.
When I started watching Irish League football (about 1970) they had a lot of unionist support. Much of which was middle class as GSpain suggests. I went to Cliftonville primary school (next door to the ground). The area was more mixed then than now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da Real Rover
OT but...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Why is that? If it can be done with no problems in the rugby, why is there such opposition with the soccer teams?
GSpain has already answered your question. We (NI fans) support NI- we're not interested in merging with anyone else any more than you are in fielding a joint team with England. It is international sport, after all. As for Britain having four international teams, I'll admit it's an oddity but one that works. And less anachronistic in recent years as other large European countries have broken into smaller units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
You'll have to ask someone else about rugby union- I've no real interest in or knowledge of it.
I talk to fans from the South when watching the Irish cricket team. Everyone largely gets on fine, but I'll be honest I'd prefer it was a NI side. Incidentally only three of the 15 man Irish squad in this year's cricket World Cup grew up in the South.
(To answer Tony Soprano's earlier query) It's nearly 40 years since I was first taken to watch NI. I was too young to know or care about religion or politics etc.
I became a fan then and have been a fan since, during which time they have been sometimes sh1te, frequently mediocre and just occasionally sublime.
I have no desire to see my team disappear into some merged entity, whether that be a United Ireland team, a United Kingdom team or a United-any-other-feckin-combination team.
It's my team, I welcome anyone else who wants to join me in supporting them, but am not bothered by people who choose to follow another team, or none, since that is their loss (imo).
And whilst I have at least a passing interest in other sports, such as rugby and cricket, neither those or any other can ever get me anything like as excited as Our Wee Country's team.
Others may nor understand or agree with me on this - fine, that's their prerogative, just as it is mine to feel as I do.
That's it, really.
P.S. Re Tony S's reference to the views of "the Protestant community" on such matters, I couldn't give a fig about that "community" or any other which identifies itself around the tribal divisions of NI. When it comes to football, the only "tribe" I'm interested in is the "Green and White Army" and I've yet to meet one other member whose opinions vary significantly from my own on this topic.
See you in Katowice for a swift half before the game EG (our party decided to stay in Krakow so we're bussing in, late afternoon).
Yep, you're right, the scoreboard did display a Tricolour for at least part of that game. I doubt very much that it was a wind-up, more likely just an oversight by some dopey Scoreboard operator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tipp Townie
And no, no-one I've ever met has ever got the slightest bit bothered by it. As for myself, quite frankly the Scoreboard Operator could have been knocking off my missus at the time and I wouldn't have cared.
Look forward to it. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Apparently there will be a "Fans Zone" organised in Katowice before the game with bars etc, from where we will all be bussed directly to the stadium. We will be held back for an hour after the game, when buses will run us back to the fans' zone (or possibly also our hotels in the centre of Katowice). Jim Reilly and the Amalgamation of NISC's are "on-the-ball" over this, in conjunction with the two FA's and the local police.
The IFA have requested up to 1,500 tickets, though are only expecting a bit over a thousand to travel. (I suspect the trouble around the Belfast game has deterred quite a few fans, especially the older/female/kids etc.)
You guys would need to be careful. Have you seen the Ross Kemp episode on Polish football hooliganism?!Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Here.
I remember watching it last year. The first sentence and the accompanying footage are unsettling!
Hahaha, made me laugh.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Thanks for the response EG.
This for me most epitomises why there is opposition to the idea of a single football team subsuming both and calling itself Ireland. As the name seems to mean the South for most people, I suppose one could liken it to how the Southerners among us would feel if all five island teams were lumped into the one and called "The British Isles".Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I am seriously not trying to revive a futile discussion about the merits of a united football team, but your suggested parallels avoid one significant and differentiating fact. A very large section of the NI population dont identify with the NI football team rightly or wrongly, they support RoI and we all meet them on a regular basis at RoI games. This worries me, because contrary to your and EG's blinkered and unsustainable platitudes about the non-sectarian ambience at NI games, football on this Ireland has become polarised in an increasingly ugly way. (This includes RoI fans abusing Rangers players and hard-line Republicans in the North wearing RoI shirts as some sort of alternative fashion accessory to black berets). Perhaps a united team is not the answer but niether is Panglossian complacency.
TP, equally I don't really want to revive a sneering match, but spare us the patronising literary criticism. It's pretentious and irrelevant to the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
My attitude is neither blinkered not unsustainable. I've no problem with NI based football fans supporting the South, as I've said on here and elsewhere repeatedly. Similarly I know the ambience at NI games from going to them, clearly it has improved hugely in recent years. But I'm not complacent at all, again as repeated regularly here.
Stop stirring, eh?
PS on a slightly lighter note (I hope), we were entertained in the stadium by two Polish fans with Celtic jerseys and a tricolor. And by a local steward in a Rangers jersey ;)
You need to understand Gather round that third policeman is a "supporter" of both teams. Third policeman can identify with both teams and assumes that deep-down everyone else can. What he fails to understand is that no genuine football would wish the disbandment of their team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
You are right I was brought up to support both teams and its hard to give up on that instinct. So well done to NI. Great performance against Poland ands the prospect of two Irish teams in South Africa is absolutely fantastic.
However you are wrong that I have ever suggested disbanding the NI team. I did once suggest that an All-Ireland team might participate in the proposed Celtic cup competition as a way of allowing football fans in the North to actually cheer for the same team for once. This was and continues to be motivated not by a desire to see the end of the NI team, but see an end to the alarming and hostile polarization of footballing loyalties on a sectarian basis.
It might be a stupid and niaive idea but it that's the case it should be countered without misrepresentation or simplifaction.
Yes it is a stupid and naive idea because the issue you speak of is not induced by football but has found expression through football. Ultimately this is a social issue and beyond the premise of a football forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman