Are we gone mad?
Rushing through a blasphemy law because there is something in the Constitution (Sec 40?) about God and stuff, is total madness in my opinion.
What we should be doing is having a (costly I know) referendum on this matter, or just ignore it like we do with many important issues.
It would be much more important to sort out the abortion mess than to criminalise people who give out about "grown adult's imaginary friends".
In my opinion Blasphemy is a victimless crime...and is thus impossible to police. Any comments???
06/05/2009, 3:22 PM
Mr A
Why not just ball it in with Lisbon?
Farcical that a modern democracy would even consider having this crap on the statute book.
06/05/2009, 4:17 PM
John83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Why not just ball it in with Lisbon?
Farcical that a modern democracy would even consider having this crap on the statute book.
And yet there are people who will defend it. I've only discussed it with two people since I returned here. One was in favour of it. The other was against rome stupid rushed legislation, but not completely against such a law. Both mentioned Tommy Tiernan.
06/05/2009, 4:50 PM
Shilts
Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
And yet there are people who will defend it. I've only discussed it with two people since I returned here. One was in favour of it. The other was against rome stupid rushed legislation, but not completely against such a law. Both mentioned Tommy Tiernan.
Shall we now call it the Tommy Tiernan Law?
It will be an amazing piece of literature when it comes out. As it will protect all Gods (is that an automatic fine) from Zeus and Horus to Jesus McChrist (fine), Jehovah (stone him! -fine) and Allah (Hansen,..another fine!). I know nothing about other religions such as Scientology (or is that a cult?) and how they could be offended. Or is it an automatic fine when one calls a religion a cult or vice versa? Its going to be great fun... will there be points like the driving? Will it be self-certification or will we have blasphemy police? Great work if you can get it!!!
Would it be possible to start a religion where the deity was so powerful that he could withstand any offence - and the religion encouraged such offence, as it showed how strong their god was... But to do so would be illegal in Ireland!!!... Tommy Tienan could be a Bishop in my new religion!!!
All mad you say...but you started it :D
06/05/2009, 4:55 PM
tiktok
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilts
In my opinion Blasphemy is a victimless crime
....but a crime nonetheless?
I think it's ridiculous to attempt to legislate against it, but there's no point in denying that religion plays a major part in the lives of a huge number of Irish people and offence can be caused by people who dismiss it. It will have a large amount of support.
The real test will come when someone complains about blasphemy against Mohammed or Krishna, or highights that L Ron Hubbard is a crazy science fiction writer [and a poor one at that], we'll see how it's current proponents react then.
06/05/2009, 5:02 PM
Sunny Jim
If there's going to be a law against blasphemy, they might as well go the whole hog and cover all superstitions at the same time, instead of singling out just one. So it should also be a crime to slag off someone for saluting a magpie, crossing your fingers, or, eh, touching wood.
06/05/2009, 5:19 PM
OneRedArmy
There's was a great desciption last night, "one mans religion is another mans blasphemy".
The Government seem to have veered dramatically from holding a referendum to get rid of it to bringing in legislation to clarify it, all because we can't afford a referendum?!
There's a sinister right wing church element (with Ahern at the helm), behind this.
Although given we are returning to the dark days of the last century economically, we may as well go the full hog and bring back some Archbishop McQuaidian legislation to fully replicate the back in time experience.
07/05/2009, 6:58 AM
First
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny Jim
If there's going to be a law against blasphemy, they might as well go the whole hog and cover all superstitions at the same time,
Oh God I hope so , those pesky single magpies have ruined many of my days. What with people pointing at them to pass on the bad luck.
07/05/2009, 10:49 AM
pete
Will the punishment be stoning?
07/05/2009, 9:46 PM
hoops1
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiktok
but there's no point in denying that religion plays a major part in the lives of a huge number of Irish people and offence can be caused by people who dismiss it. It will have a large amount of support.
Good point. I actually think its a good idea.
08/05/2009, 9:50 AM
Lionel Ritchie
I hate ******** guard dogs!
The Mole will be spinning in his grave ... or on the other hand might end up being grounded again. :cool:
Delighted to hear an opposite viewpoint.
How would you define blasphemy?
Do only the major religions count?
Any opt outs for artists/poets/fiction writers?
It seems to be too vague to be pinned down legally.
08/05/2009, 1:13 PM
OneRedArmy
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
Good point. I actually think its a good idea.
Quite a number of religions define followers of other religions as blaspheming purely through the action of being a member of another religion.
Given our Government's record at botching easy legislation, I can't wait to see how they tackle questions like this one.
08/05/2009, 1:34 PM
Macy
It's FF trying to appeal to the Catholic Fundamentalist vote (they're not alone given the Libertas candidate in Dublin). Some FF TD was on the Last Word last night being discriminatory about Gay Marriage too. Any port in an electoral storm.
08/05/2009, 1:35 PM
pineapple stu
Is the apostrophe left out of the title on purpose to avoid possible blasphemy with regards "For God's sake" and "For Gods' sake"?
08/05/2009, 2:32 PM
John83
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Is the apostrophe left out of the title on purpose to avoid possible blasphemy with regards "For God's sake" and "For Gods' sake"?
Shilts doesn't believe in apostrophes, you bigot. ;)
08/05/2009, 2:50 PM
osarusan
Blasphemy (from Merriam-Webster Dictionary)
Quote:
1 a: the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God
b: the act of claiming the attributes of deity
2: irreverence toward something considered sacred or inviolable
1a would suggest that even being an atheist would be blasphemous, as not believing in (at least one) God is surely irreverent. As ORA has pointed out, believing in a specific God is surely being less than reverent to all other Gods.
The wording of the law will be extremely interesting.
08/05/2009, 3:01 PM
pineapple stu
Interesting bit on wikipedia listing countries that have blasphemy laws. The US is obvious; places like Austria, New Zealand and Holland as well though. England repealed the law last year. Many places have the law, but the state don't bother to use it.
And in the spirit of balances debate, here's a Dilbert cartoon about wikipedia. :)
08/05/2009, 3:22 PM
Wangball
I'm all for any law that shuts Tommy Tiernan up but at the same time this does seem like overkill
Time for complete seperation of church & state, just a shame there's no one brave enough to push for it
Is the apostrophe left out of the title on purpose to avoid possible blasphemy with regards "For God's sake" and "For Gods' sake"?
Well spotted stu - except my english grammar is only at D+... at best.
I meant For Gods' sake at the time (I think).
Also, on mature reflection, I have now decided that I can no longer believe in apostrophes ...or semi-colons either for that matter! :D
John 83 are you any relation of John 3:17. Anyone think it unusual to have religious banners at big games ??? - What a tangent, even for me!!!
The wording of a blasphemy law would be legally impossible in my opinion.
It would be very hard to include/omit the fringe religion/cult and I think that we are going down a very dangerous road with this. While it is hard to define blasphemy, in Ireland we'd end up with an opus dei committee to decide which gods and religions were important enough to be included in this law.
Steven Gerrard, Kaka or Lionel Messi anyone? Gods/prophets/saints???
Would it be allowed to slag off saints such as saint-in-training Mother Theresa, who has a slightly dodgy record according to some people???
Brilliant take on this subject!
Love the Jedi stuff!!!
15/07/2009, 10:17 AM
dahamsta
I see this passed the Dáil the other day. In my admittedly fairly cursory browsing on the subject, I haven't seen a defense of the law offered apart from a one-liner that seems to suggest that the JM implemented it because of a "need" for a law because of the Constitution, is that correct? Surely the logical solution would be to tack removal onto the spurious Lisbon referendum? We're having one already, let's take advantage of it!
15/07/2009, 11:34 AM
OneRedArmy
The Constitution argument is a load of.... The Constitution is ambiguous on lots of areas that sucessive Governments haven't felt the need to legislate for.
And if you really do need to do something, change the Constitution (throw it in with Lisbon as you suggest).
FF right wing little Ireland church element firmly behind this.
15/07/2009, 12:24 PM
Lionel Ritchie
... So when can we, if at all, start laughing at people praying to a tree stump 30 miles from here?
Though before losing the run of ourselves in a frenzy of zealous fervour we should perhaps consider the calming wise counsel of the local padré whos understated, simple words bely a deep, rich truth at their very heart ....
Quote:
....'It's only a tree' said local parish priest Father Willie Russell.
15/07/2009, 12:35 PM
superfrank
What'll happen to him now?
15/07/2009, 12:35 PM
Mr A
Quote:
'One of the lads said look, our Blessed Lady in the tree,' Mr White said. 'One of the other lads looked over and actually knelt down and blessed himself, he got such a shock.'
That's from the above article. Made me laugh anyway! Not as much as the following quote though:
Quote:
'While we do not wish in any way to detract from devotion to Our Lady, we would also wish to avoid anything which might lead to superstition,' said Fr Paul Finnerty.
So the church is against superstition! Brilliant!
Anyhoo- the church reckons that it's just a tree so the people who are worshipping it are flipping blasphemers and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
15/07/2009, 1:47 PM
John83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
So the church is against superstition! Brilliant!
Anyhoo- the church reckons that it's just a tree so the people who are worshipping it are flipping blasphemers and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
They're idolaters. They can't be blasphemers unless they explain what they're doing.
15/07/2009, 3:11 PM
Lionel Ritchie
Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
They're idolaters. They can't be blasphemers unless they explain what they're doing.
Ah, Touché.
They can quote you while the flames rise.;)
16/07/2009, 10:05 PM
Angus
This is nothing other than Dermot Aherns campaign for next leader of FF
25/07/2009, 2:51 PM
ped_ped
The law provides for a definition of blasphemy, aswell, and the general consensus is that you have to INTEND to cause outrage for it to be a crime.
25/07/2009, 6:26 PM
John83
Quote:
Originally Posted by ped_ped
The law provides for a definition of blasphemy, aswell, and the general consensus is that you have to INTEND to cause outrage for it to be a crime.
Ah, so it's a thought crime? Well, that's okay then.
29/07/2009, 12:20 PM
ped_ped
Never said it was OK... just that it's not really a blasphemy law in fairness.
29/07/2009, 12:46 PM
blobbyblob
Some questions for the FAQs
Do you have to nail your colours to the mast (sorry baby Jesus) as to what religion you are? Could have it on our PPS cards.
Would you have the right to blasphem your own kind like the brothers in the African American community do but frown upon those outside of said community doing so.
If your name is Ger O'Donavan are you allowed to write your initials anymore or is that lining yourself up for a burning at the stake.
Can you do a citizens arrest, hold him face down in the dirt and call the guards if someone is blaspheming?
Public stonings could be really what this country needs to turn this economy around
