Hillsborough

This is a Book of Remembrance that has been specially commissioned by the Liverpool Daily Post and Echo to commemorate those who lost their lives at the Hillsborough disaster 20 years ago.

If a relative or a friend of yours died on 15 April 1989, if you were at the stadium and survived the tragedy, or if you simply want to leave a message in memory of those who died, please do so. Any proceeds from the lighting of candles will be donated to the Hillsborough Family Support Group.

Two decades have passed since 96 Liverpool fans were killed in the worst football disaster in British sporting history. It is essential that we continue to honour their memory and never forget that dark day.

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Hillsborough Memorial

Nice post and well said

One side point - I visited Anfield before Christmas and it was interesting to note the respect home and away fans both had for the memorial outside the ground.

There was a surreal moment after the game where the memorial is just behind the goal at the opposite end to the Kop. Not sure if this is normal but the crowd movement brings everybody to that spot and for about 20 seconds the crush was quite scary, and was right underneath the memorial

Not trying to make any point here other than to note it

When I look back on some scary moments going to Dalymount as a kid in the days when 30K used to attend that stadium for cup finals and international games, we were so lucky we didn't have "a Hillsborough". There were concrete walls oneither side of the entrance to the turnstiles and I remember being lifted off my feet in the crush on a couple of occasions. There would be a mad surge if it got near kick off time. It was an accident waiting to happen.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

When I look back on some scary moments going to Dalymount as a kid in the days when 30K used to attend that stadium for cup finals and international games, we were so lucky we didn't have "a Hillsborough". There were concrete walls oneither side of the entrance to the turnstiles and I remember being lifted off my feet in the crush on a couple of occasions. There would be a mad surge if it got near kick off time. It was an accident waiting to happen.

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agree. ditto matches in lansdowne and croke park in the late 80s

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

When I look back on some scary moments going to Dalymount as a kid in the days when 30K used to attend that stadium for cup finals and international games, we were so lucky we didn't have "a Hillsborough". There were concrete walls oneither side of the entrance to the turnstiles and I remember being lifted off my feet in the crush on a couple of occasions. There would be a mad surge if it got near kick off time. It was an accident waiting to happen.

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I remember the Italy game in 1985 as being once such case.

I wasnt going to post in relation to Hillsborough until tomorrow and I have to hold my hands up and say that it is one of the very few things that I find very difficult to respond to in words. I really dont like talking about it. I feel uneasy.

I could go on off on a personal tangent about the impact it had on all those close to me on merseyside and the family debate that took place as to whether we should continue going to games but the following is the key message for me.

96 human beings left their homes that morning, on a day off from work, to go to watch a football game. They never came home.

Forget about pointing the finger of blame or analyzing facts, fiction or hearsay, that's just not right.

Win, lose or draw tonight, tomorrow or any April 15th will not be a happy day for me. If I never set foot into another LFC game in my life, it's something that will always pull at the strings of my heart.

96 friends, gone but never forgotten. YNWA.

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

I remember the Italy game in 1985 as being once such case.

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Exactly.

Also the surge in the South Terrace when we equalised against Spain in the 3-3 draw. I took a 12 year old pal to the game and he was terrified getting swept away 20 metres sideways and down.

Also the triple crown game against Scotland (Ollie Campbell's 21 points - 1983?) where I was painfully suspended in mid air against a crush barrier in the North Terrace.

Also vs England in rugby around 1997 when the ground was over capacity because of forged tickets. We actually couldn't even get onto the terrace it was so overcrowded.

In my youthful naivety I thought it was all part and parcel of live sport. My future sister in law said she thought she was going to die at that Italy game at Dalyer and I dismissed her as just a girl who knew nothing about football crowds. We were blessed it didn't happen here.

Dipping into very difficult territory here so I am trying to be as careful and respectful as possible.

I understand that there is a Justice for the 96 campaign in Liverpool - when the families talk about justice, it appears to be a kind of parallel with the stardust families ? ie they are looking for greater clarity, disclosure, transparency from the government and police, together with details of who made what decisions on the day and who made what mistakes.

Have I got this right ?

Is this a case where they feel stonewalled and ignore by the state or is there something else I have not seen ?

Pretty much, and there was definitely some form of cover up and no police officer really faced any meaningful punishment. Thatcher's Government feckin hated football fans. However, if there's going to be truth then some unpalatable things will also have to explored and/ or accepted.

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Originally Posted by Macy

No police officer really faced any meaningful punishment.

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Do you think that if the police thought for one second 90+ people would be killed, they would have acted the same? Absolutely not. Mistakes were made of course but not for one second did anyone believe that the consequences of their actions would result in such a tragedy.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Do you think that if the police thought for one second 90+ people would be killed, they would have acted the same? Absolutely not. Mistakes were made of course but not for one second did anyone believe that the consequences of their actions would result in such a tragedy.

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If they had nothing to hide, why the cover up? Why the missing cctv tapes, why the changed statements, why the initial lies about the gates being forced?

The police were in charge - their decisions contributed greatly (if not exclusively) to what happened.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Do you think that if the police thought for one second 90+ people would be killed, they would have acted the same? Absolutely not. Mistakes were made of course but not for one second did anyone believe that the consequences of their actions would result in such a tragedy.

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96 humans lost their lives;)

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Do you think that if the police thought for one second 90+ people would be killed, they would have acted the same? Absolutely not. Mistakes were made of course but not for one second did anyone believe that the consequences of their actions would result in such a tragedy.

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If police incompetence had a part to play in the loss of life, then such incompetence should be punished accordingly.

And should the people who arrived late without tickets who tried to get in to the ground also be punished?

Incidentally, is there a close bond between Celtic and Liverpool? I saw this on the RTE site.

"The arrival of a contingent from Celtic, carrying two massive banners onto the pitch, was greeted with a standing ovation."

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

And should the people who arrived late without tickets who tried to get in to the ground also be punished?

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This is a perfect example of whataboutery.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Incidentally, is there a close bond between Celtic and Liverpool? I saw this on the RTE site.

"The arrival of a contingent from Celtic, carrying two massive banners onto the pitch, was greeted with a standing ovation."

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Yes there is, Celtic fans have always taken a special interest in the 96. Im guessing you are a Wednesday fan and I expect that you do to.

On a side note, mass at St. 7.30pm in Matthews Church, Ballyfermot is for the 96. The final hymn will be "You’ll Never Walk Alone". Told this by a colleague who lives in the area, so im hoping the details are correct.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Do you think that if the police thought for one second 90+ people would be killed

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I think the problem is that the police, it seems, didn't think at all.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

This is a perfect example of whataboutery.

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So if two sets of people are to blame, only one set should be set up as the guilty? I'd call that lackofbalancery.

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Originally Posted by reder

Yes there is, Celtic fans have always taken a special interest in the 96. Im guessing you are a Wednesday fan and I expect that you do to.

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Yes I do. The word Hillsborough to most people is now the name of the site of a terrible tragedy. To me it's the name of a football ground which I have visited on many occasions. I was always pleased when FA Cup Semi-Finals were played in the stadium (the club were on the map). I never thought for one minute that the name would be associated forever more with the deaths of almost a hundred people.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Pretty much, and there was definitely some form of cover up and no police officer really faced any meaningful punishment. Thatcher's Government feckin hated football fans. However, if there's going to be truth then some unpalatable things will also have to explored and/ or accepted.

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their is also the horrible fire at bradford city 1985 56 people died
many could not get out due to exit gates being locked .. nobody ever faced any meaningful punishment over this and it seems to have been pushed further out of memory due to the terrible events at hillsborough think about it nearly 150 poor innocent pour souls going out to support their beloved clubs and being caught up in the horror of these 2 games and never coming home ... :ball::ball:

96 dead, but also 700 injured who I'm sure will never forget what they saw. And 27 aged 18 or under.

The Leppings Lane End was found to be under its capacity at 3.05 (9,734 in a capacity of 10,100 with 7 turnstiles). The two central terraces however had about 1500 people each in a 1000 limited pen and the pens either side were under capacity. It wasn't caused by a mass of late fans. It was caused by them being allowed into the wrong place at the wrong time.

There was one way in and no way out.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

And should the people who arrived late without tickets who tried to get in to the ground also be punished?

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I would've thought ticketless fans getting to the ground was also a policing matter? However, I would agree that was also a contributing factor.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I would've thought ticketless fans getting to the ground was also a policing matter?

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As long as no blame goes the Liverpool fans way eh??

Scousers, blameless as always. :rolleyes:

David Conn published a good piece in the Guardian, suggesting 8 questions that need answering, such as:

Who authorised the amending of junior policemen's statements to make it seem like the response was less chaotic?
Why?
Who took the CCTV video tapes from a locked room at SWFC?

Guess who was responsible for the investigation: West Midlands - the same force that fitted up the Birmingham Six and others. I'm not sure was it the serious crime unit which was later disbanded because of the sheer scale of its corruption.

No wonder the families are looking for justice.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

So if two sets of people are to blame, only one set should be set up as the guilty? I'd call that lackofbalancery.

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I've already said that if the police are shown to have acted incompetently, that incompetence should be punished accordingly.

I can see your point about fans being to blame also, but I don't know what they could be charged with. The police accepted the responsibility of policing the game, and if they failed in that responsibility (and covered up that failure), they should be held accountable. I can't think of any parallel responsibility fans have (in a legal sense).

really really wanted to avoid this thread for fear of what i might say but certain comments have convinced me to add my thoughts.

The day Liverpool fans accept full responsibility for Heysel and partial responsility for Hillsborough will be the day i have sympathy for them.

Certain (ticketless) sections of their support charged the stiles at the CL final, ffs, leaving plenty of decent fans locked out. Disgraceful behaviour.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

The day Liverpool fans accept full responsibility for Heysel and partial responsility for Hillsborough will be the day i have sympathy for them.

Certain (ticketless) sections of their support charged the stiles at the CL final, ffs, leaving plenty of decent fans locked out. Disgraceful behaviour.

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I can see your point (though I have never thought I needed to sympathise with every Liverpool fan, rather just the fans involved in Hillsborough), but aren't you kind of tarring all of them with the same brush?

This thread could go to a bad place.

(Sorry, I had 667-1 posts and I am VERY superstitious. Couldnt leave my count at that.)

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

As long as no blame goes the Liverpool fans way eh??

Scousers, blameless as always. :rolleyes:

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That's the first time that accusation has ever been levelled at me, ever!!

No, I don't accept they were blameless, which is the unpalatable things I referred to in my first post. The bulk of the blame does go to the police. However, the ticketless fans who were trying to get in also share part of the blame, and it must have been the first dry semi ever the way knickers get in a twist at the mere mention of drunk fans causing problems.

Also the police's attitude has to be put in the context of the hooliganism of the time, and the fact this came a mere 4 years after Liverpool fans murdered 39 fans. There was a reason there was fences at the front.

There are elements of the story some of the campaigners are happy to airbrush from the story whilst calling for transparency of other people, but that doesn't get away from the fact that it would've been avoided with proper policing.

I would also share SkStu's sentiments around Heysel, whatever about my sympathy for those directly effected by Hillsborough. Liverpool FC, and Liverpool fans still do not accept responisbility for Heysel, and it does imo cloud the collective outpouring with regard to Hillsborough.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Incidentally, is there a close bond between Celtic and Liverpool? I saw this on the RTE site.

"The arrival of a contingent from Celtic, carrying two massive banners onto the pitch, was greeted with a standing ovation."

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Celtic Played Liverpool in a friendly which was the first game they played after Hillsborough, previous to that I cannot say there would have been much of a bond, but since then there seems to be.

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

As long as no blame goes the Liverpool fans way eh??

Scousers, blameless as always. :rolleyes:

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This thread was put up in memory of 96 humans who lost their lifes that day.

You should be a fcuking shamed of yourself you really should.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

really really wanted to avoid this thread for fear of what i might say but certain comments have convinced me to add my thoughts.

The day Liverpool fans accept full responsibility for Heysel and partial responsility for Hillsborough will be the day i have sympathy for them.

Certain (ticketless) sections of their support charged the stiles at the CL final, ffs, leaving plenty of decent fans locked out. Disgraceful behaviour.

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This thread was put up in memory of 96 humans who lost their lifes that day not to argue the rights or wrongs of the day or for that matter Heysel. Again you should be shamed of yourself you really should.

You did not say that when people were talking about the behaviour of the police in the thread. If you only wanted it as a tribute you would have replied to those people who were discussing the polices role in this. Double standards and what the guys have said does not take away from the pain or add to the pain that those who died or survived this tragedy.

If there's to be further inquiries, and ultimately meaningful justice for the 96, there has to be complete transparency on all sides. You can't just write out elements that don't suit LFC.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

You did not say that when people were talking about the behaviour of the police in the thread. If you only wanted it as a tribute you would have replied to those people who were discussing the polices roll in this. Double standards and what the guys have said does not take away from the pain or add to the pain that those who died or survived this tragedy.

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

:rolleyes:

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I don't agree with the comments, but instead of just having a go at the people why not try to prove them wrong? Whilst I don't agree with the comments, you took no offence to people having a go at the police before. I believe the police are almost exclusively to blame - and no blame goes to Liverpool fans - but if people start blaming the police, then obviously others will disagree and start to have a go at the fans, considering this is a forum with fans of many different clubs. If you want to discredit people, then you should do so instead of just throwing your eyes up at them.

Anyway, here's a very well researched document on the various mistruths of Hillsborough (pdf document):

http://www.hfdinfo.com/
http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/4HFDCon...nsequences.pdf
http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/8HFDCombined.pdf

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Originally Posted by Rafa B

This thread was put up in memory of 96 humans who lost their lifes that day not to argue the rights or wrongs of the day or for that matter Heysel. Again you should be shamed of yourself you really should.

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any loss of life is a sad thing, undoubtedly and while i do feel sorry for the 96 people who died that day and the impact this has had on their families i object utterly to the coat-tailing of the Liverpool fans in general.

These same Liverpool fans who are responsible for Heysel, Hillsborough itself (to some degree), storming the gates at the CL final and singing the Munich song (im not a ManU fan). All this and we are supposed to allow them some sort of vicarious sympathy? Please. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by SkStu

These same Liverpool fans who are responsible for Heysel, Hillsborough itself (to some degree), storming the gates at the CL final and singing the Munich song (im not a ManU fan). All this and we are supposed to allow them some sort of vicarious sympathy? Please. :rolleyes:

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Fans of the same team, but not (all) the same fans. I agree that there is no need for vicarious sympathy but in your post there seems to be vicarious guilt.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

any loss of life is a sad thing, undoubtedly and while i do feel sorry for the 96 people who died that day and the impact this has had on their families i object utterly to the coat-tailing of the Liverpool fans in general.

These same Liverpool fans who are responsible for Heysel, Hillsborough itself (to some degree), storming the gates at the CL final and singing the Munich song (im not a ManU fan). All this and we are supposed to allow them some sort of vicarious sympathy? Please. :rolleyes:

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Liverpool fans were responsible for Heysel. The events at the CL final in 2007 were 22 years later, the fan base would have been completely different and a lot more geographically diluted. Besides, the stadium was woefully poor and the police did a poor job in that regard too. That doesn't take anything away from the disgraceful behaviour of some of the fans that night though. I'm sure many Liverpool fans were disgusted with the behaviour of some that night, particularly after Hillsborough.

However, a lot of inquiries and all of the evidence suggests that Liverpool fans were in no way responsible for the events of Hillsborough. There is no video proof of this, and the BBC in their initial coverage of the event, didn't seem to think that fans were to blame.

The fact is, they weren't in any way. The Leppings Lane end was actually either below or around capacity that day, but due to the poor handling of the event by the police it turned into a disaster as the central terrace was way over capacity. Fans that day did nothing wrong, and the idea that plenty of ticketless fans got into the ground is unproved. The police were the ones that were almost exclusively to blame that day, and the fact that the myth persists that Liverpool fans were to blame in some way is disgraceful.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Fans of the same team, but not (all) the same fans. I agree that there is no need for vicarious sympathy but in your post there seems to be vicarious guilt.

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Osa and jmurphyc, all decent Bohs fans are generally tarred with the same brush after what happened in Derry with a tiny group of our support and due to a few mindless schooligans. Thats life. I am just applying the same standards here. (Osarusan, im not sure what you mean by my vicarious guilt?)

What about the Munich song, often heard loud and clear at Pool/United games? That stinks of double standards to me.

Im going to take back my comment about partial responsibility for Hillsborough, as that is somewhat unfair. It was mostly the fault of the police.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

What about the Munich song, often heard loud and clear at Pool/United games? That stinks of double standards to me.

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Well, I can't be sure, but I think that the people who sing the Munich song at United games are a minority. Most of the fans don't condone their behaviour, but at the same time more should be done to stop it and the club really should actively do something about it such as banning the perpetrators for life. The mocking of the loss of life in any way is absolutely sickening, irrespective of rivalries.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Im going to take back my comment about partial responsibility for Hillsborough, as that is somewhat unfair. It was mostly the fault of the police.

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That's fair enough. I didn't mean to say that you saying so was disgraceful, merely the fact that the cover up of the event and spreading of mistruths about Hillsborough has made it difficult for many to know any better.