Dublin Bus Cuts

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290 jobs are to go at Dublin Bus as part of a series of cost-cutting measures.

Dublin Bus is also withdrawing 120 buses, which is 10% of its fleet.

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Full story here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0116/transport.html

Cutting 10% of the bus fleet seems like a fairly badly though out decision. I would have though at a time of economic hurt public transport should be expanding and servicing more routes with greater frequency, after all it should be a cheap and effective way to travel, allowing city dwellers to live without cars, or at least to only need them for occasional use. Instead we increase fairs, cut buses and cut routes, just doesn't make sense to me :confused:

I think they got their annual 5% increase in fares at the start of the year yet they are still losing money. Then again in a time of recession where almost everything is reducing in price no surprise to see state monopoly is increasing prices. I wonder how much money Dublin Bus put aside to fight the court case of private operator who is claiming they put him out of business by flooding the route with buses?

Cutting bus services makes no sense while at the same time planning "green" or "carbon" taxes. :rolleyes:

There should be more private operators in Dublin. I am sure there would be a queue willing to take on the 10% Dublin Bus are cutting.

How can you go from noting they're losing money to criticisng them for increasing prices in the space of two lines?

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Originally Posted by pete

There should be more private operators in Dublin. I am sure there would be a queue willing to take on the 10% Dublin Bus are cutting.

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They'll be free too. Problem with the Private operators they want competition even less than Dublin Bus. They want a private monopoly on the routes, not any competitors. You can see this on that lucan route or that one that was spitting the dummy about Dublin Bus also using the Port Tunnel claiming some kind of exclusivity.

It's their annual New Year's gift to the travelling public. "Sing Aul Lang's Syne, right now jack up the fares." The same applies to the Luas, a private company. :rolleyes:

Put up prices, means less people on services. That economic situation isn't recognised by the power freaks running the transport companies.

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Originally Posted by pete

I think they got their annual 5% increase in fares at the start of the year yet they are still losing money. Then again in a time of recession where almost everything is reducing in price no surprise to see state monopoly is increasing prices. I wonder how much money Dublin Bus put aside to fight the court case of private operator who is claiming they put him out of business by flooding the route with buses?

Cutting bus services makes no sense while at the same time planning "green" or "carbon" taxes. :rolleyes:

There should be more private operators in Dublin. I am sure there would be a queue willing to take on the 10% Dublin Bus are cutting.

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Plust private companies only will serve the main busy routes. They cherry pick the routes and leave a company like say Bus Eireann or Dublin Bus to go for the less profitable routes. France and Germany seem to do ok on the transport front with a state monopoly. Private enterprise and privatisation is not the be all and end all as has been shown over the last 2 years.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

How can you go from noting they're losing money to criticisng them for increasing prices in the space of two lines?

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I imagine he feels Dublin Bus are spectacularly inefficient and/or underfunded.

They are the latter anyway. I saw a statistic a while back, but can't remember it exactly, but I think it was subsidies per capita to the public transport system in European capital cities. Dublin was last.

If they dump 10% of their busses, they'll probably cut maintenence costs by 15% or 20% (you dump the unreliable, older ones), plus 10% of their drivers, so this should cut back costs fairly effectively. Yeah, the reduced service sucks, but blame the government.

It depends on how it's done. There are some bus routes which need to be cut back anyway.

I don't think less buses and correlative decrease in frequency per se makes for poorer service; more so, it's the capricious and frustrating unreliability of the service that puts people off I think - a problem spawned from the lack of an anyway useful ETA at your stop for Mr Bus.
You're never quite sure if it's on its way or not, or if the driver has decided to leave early and screw up the inane timetabling that you've eventually figured out. So even though I like buses (especially sitting upstairs on double deckers, oh the thrill!), I eventually pretty much gave up on Dublin Bus for all but extreme circumstances. There were times when I questioned myself, like on the regular cycle with half my body weight in shopping on my back on a blustery day, but given the poor quality of service using the bike still seemed the more sensible option.

So I think if we want to get people to use the bus more, an intelligent timetabling service delivering reasonable levels of certainty is required so that even if you have to wait 20 minutes, at least you know it will be 20ish minutes. You can then go back to your friend's house, or go for a quick pint, coffee, browse in shop, whatever. It would make the worst thing about the bus (the uncertain wait at the stop) significantly less bad.

Has anyone of late been to a city with modern public transport infrastructure? Where you're given information like at Luas or Dart stations but for buses? I appreciate there are more stops for buses but I can't imagine the installation of a (sturdy) little digital box thing being overly expensive, and especially so relative to its benefits.

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Has anyone of late been to a city with modern public transport infrastructure? Where you're given information like at Luas or Dart stations but for buses? I appreciate there are more stops for buses but I can't imagine the installation of a (sturdy) little digital box thing being overly expensive, and especially so relative to its benefits.

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You instantly have the problem of vandalism with that.

I'd imagine they'll cut back on routes like the 39, going from every 10 mins to 15, and so on.

5% annual fare increase & 10% reduction in service yet they still can't balance the books!

Monopolies are always bad so there should be a tender process for bus routes with service requirements. The routes that are not commercially viable can be given grants by the state so can be either public or private company who runs it just like Aer Arann for domestic flights.

Even with more bus corridors Dublin Bus time tables are just guess work.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

So I think if we want to get people to use the bus more, an intelligent timetabling service delivering reasonable levels of certainty is required so that even if you have to wait 20 minutes, at least you know it will be 20ish minutes. You can then go back to your friend's house, or go for a quick pint, coffee, browse in shop, whatever. It would make the worst thing about the bus (the uncertain wait at the stop) significantly less bad.

the installation of a (sturdy) little digital box thing being overly expensive, and especially so relative to its benefits.

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They tried it on stops here a few years ago, but had to stop, as even that was unreliable.

I also only use the bus on a need to basis. I find buses to be unreliable, with unfriendly drivers, and frequently break down completely. At least when the Customer Service Offenders on the Luas look for tickets, they say a "thank you", rather than a mumbled grunt from a bus driver.

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Originally Posted by mypost

They tried it on stops here a few years ago, but had to stop, as even that was unreliable.

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I hadn't known that, thanks. I assume traffic was the cause of the unreliability rather than technical malfunction?
I'm not giving up on it anyway though, as when the frequency of services is reduced it becomes an even greater issue. I'm not sure of the best method though, and admittedly if Dublin Bus were to get drivers to signal that they've left the depot, and have arrived at various intermediate stops, it would initially take a good bit of statistical analysis to determine a route's average journey time at the various stages of the day. But if you had a proper functioning system I think it'd make the bus a much more attractive option. That's just from my experience and guessing what puts others off - I've never experienced a bus breaking down for example.

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Originally Posted by brianw82

You instantly have the problem of vandalism with that.

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That's why I said 'sturdy'. :)

Also, I don't think Luas and Dart ones are vandalised that much? And it should be fairly small (it needn't be more than a couple of inches squared really) so for that reason and its general boringness it shouldn't represent an especially attractive target for vandals. In other words I don't think the potential problem of vandalism should prevent a revamp of the system.

In time I suppose a live-feed to our mobiles via GPS will be possible, if it isn't already. That would be ideal for attracting passengers, as realistically people decide whether they'll take the bus in their homes, not when they get to the bus-stop and see how long they have to wait.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

...But if you had a proper functioning system I think it'd make the bus a much more attractive option. That's just from my experience and guessing what puts others off - I've never experienced a bus breaking down for example...

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I've had a bus break down on me maybe twice. It's not usually a big deal.

I once waited over 45 minutes for a 46A around lunchtime - it was due every 6 or so minutes. Six of them arrived at the same time. I do not kid. Six of them. (Well, I think one of them may have been a 46B actually.) I was late for an exam over it. I've never relied on Dublin Bus for anything I couldn't afford to miss since.

I've a suspicion that a lot of the busses on the timetables are fictional - I don't think my mean waiting time for a bus is half the claimed frequency. I'd have to actually test that carefully to be sure though - you tend to remember the long waits more than the times one pulled in just as you arrived at the stop.

I think the sort of system kingdom hoop suggests is pretty much a requirement of a modern public transport system. Expect Dublin Bus to install them some time early in the 22nd century.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

Has anyone of late been to a city with modern public transport infrastructure? Where you're given information like at Luas or Dart stations but for buses? I appreciate there are more stops for buses but I can't imagine the installation of a (sturdy) little digital box thing being overly expensive, and especially so relative to its benefits.

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been to brisbane, toronto/niagara falls and prague in the last few years, and they all have modern, efficient public transport that have wee digital displays telling ye how long until the bus gets to your stop, and they were usually close enough (3/4 minutes either way), with only one of them being a recently communist country. funnily enough, ive never had any complaints about the bus service in belfast either, and i used that pretty regularly when i lived there, not just for the student areas.

I was reading that the bus routes in Belfast were all redone a few years ago. They replaced all the old routes with a dozen or so fast routes into the city and various feeder routes surrounding that.

It's the type of thing that Dublin needs to do as well but changing a bus route down here seems to be the most arcane, drawn out process that I don't think it'll ever be done. The city could come out of this well if Dublin Bus use the cover of the recession to bring in some needed changes but it's anyone's guess whether they'll do that or simply cut whatever's easiest to cut.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

In time I suppose a live-feed to our mobiles via GPS will be possible, if it isn't already. That would be ideal for attracting passengers, as realistically people decide whether they'll take the bus in their homes, not when they get to the bus-stop and see how long they have to wait.

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Due to go live with a system like this in March I'm pretty sure I read last week. It should make a difference. I use the bus all the time and the wait can be a killer. My annual ticket jumped from €830 approx to €980 approx so I'd be hoping the service will be improved. I've a nagging suspicion that the 65b, which is the bus I use, will be one of those hit with cuts.

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Originally Posted by pete

...Monopolies are always bad so there should be a tender process for bus routes with service requirements. The routes that are not commercially viable can be given grants by the state so can be either public or private company who runs it just like Aer Arann for domestic flights....

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That is exactly the way it should be.

London has adopted a tendering system where operators bid for routes. The operators can earn bonuses for operating a good service but can get penalised when they don't. Not only do they get penalised but they also can lose the contract on the route. It is in their interests to ensure that services run regularly.

In big cities where traffic congestion is a regular feature, timetables dont really mean anything. If a bus is advertised as running every 10 minutes, it doesnt matter if the bus arrives at 5 past, 8 past or whatever as long as you know that no matter what time you go for a bus you should not have to wait more than 10 minutes.

Monpolies don't work as usually it is the trade unions who dictate what goes on, not the management.

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

I've never experienced a bus breaking down for example.

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Got a bus for a long journey for the first time in years in the summer into the city. The bus broke down at the first stop, and there was a 15 minute wait for a replacement.

Recently, another late night bus shunted passengers off at Christchurch, instead of travelling all the way to Westmoreland Street, as he said he didn't want to drive into a taxi rank.

He was obviously out, when it was announced that taxis could use bus lanes. :eek::o

Heard during the week that in Munich over forty different companies -a mix of semistate and private -operate the buses seamlessly and effectively with completely integrated ticketing.

Shouldn't be impossible to install vandal proof information displays telling what time the next bus is due either. I've seen some clever designs where there is simply no way to access the machine and the display itself is no more than a projection onto a flat surface.

I must say that I use Dublin Bus quite a bit and I find it in general a very good service. The odd cranky driver but just the same there are more decent drivers who have helped me of late when I needed as I was on crutches etc. I think buying a yearly ticket or a weekly ticket is a necessity though as using cash is a disaster in my view as you cant hop and hop off buses for the same fare.

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Originally Posted by Superhoops

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Monpolies don't work as usually it is the trade unions who dictate what goes on, not the management.

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On your last poing there. Am I right in saying that Uk's broke up their monopolies in the 80's and look at the state of their transport system. As far as I know France has a state run transport system and it is one of the best in the world. Also as far as I know Germanys rail system is run by the state and is a monopoly and that is much better than the Uk's.

Look how de-regulation as served the banking sector. So these old cliches that we have had for the last god knows how many years that is ideology driven politics rather than solution driven politics gets us no where.

public transport should be state operated, IMO. a private company has to answer to no one really but its owner/shareholders over its operations, whilst at least a public service operated by the state (at whatever level, national government, county council, UDC, etc) will be at least partially accountable to the likes of voters and regulators. it wouldnt be solely about the bottom line.

Can't agree on that.

Ryanair and the Luas never have industrial disputes as private companies, like CIE and Aer Lingus do.

Munich and Prague have user friendly ticketing systems. Prague's is €6 for 3 days which allows the ticket holder access to everything. Here, you pay for everything as you use it.

I used the bus a fair bit in Prague, and the major difference is that there is no cash fare. You just hop on/off, and you validate your ticket that you bought somewhere else. It's valid for the day, and it's your responsibility to have a valid ticket. If an inspector comes along and you don't have one, you get a hefty fine. There's a lot of fare-dodging as the inspectors are few and far between, but the service is efficient as there's no messing with coins. It stops for 10-15 seconds, and if you're not on, that's it.

This is something I feel that Dublin Bus should consider. This obsessive 'validation', ensuring that not one single person gets away with not paying creates a real bottleneck at busy stops. It's like a corner shop installing a state-of-the-art security system in case one person steals a bottle of coke. I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

The Prague Metro is a tough one though. Late at night, plain-clothed ticket inspectors gather on the platforms at certain stations demanding to see tickets. At least here, they are clearly visible when inspecting them.

Strike is inevitable now.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Ryanair and the Luas never have industrial disputes as private companies, like CIE and Aer Lingus do.

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Luas has a very high trade union density. Give me the service levels of even CIE and Aer Lingus over Ryanair anyday.

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Originally Posted by shantykelly

public transport should be state operated, IMO. a private company has to answer to no one really but its owner/shareholders over its operations, whilst at least a public service operated by the state (at whatever level, national government, county council, UDC, etc) will be at least partially accountable to the likes of voters and regulators. it wouldnt be solely about the bottom line.

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How are Dublin Bus accountable to anyone?

I have never understood why Dublin Bus try to drive a bus past everyones door & why almost all buses go via the city centre. As suggested above the main arteries should go to the city centre with local feeder buses cutting across them in web like formation. The lack of GPS tracker is a joke in 2009. I suppose the unions would want to be paid for that too.

I think Dublin Bus drivers overall do a good as it is not an easy job.

I hear there is another dublin transport quango to be created soon. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

Has anyone of late been to a city with modern public transport infrastructure? Where you're given information like at Luas or Dart stations but for buses? I appreciate there are more stops for buses but I can't imagine the installation of a (sturdy) little digital box thing being overly expensive, and especially so relative to its benefits.

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I'm pretty sure they have them on one or two stops on the Emmet Road going out towards Pat's. It's the single greatest problem with Dublin Bus, I think. In fact, the only other major ones from a customer perspective are bus drivers who don't bother giving you change tickets (less frequent now, in fairness), the change tickets themselves and knackers at the back.

Nothing beats Zurich's transport system for efficiency, reliability and usefulness. One ticket for one zone, a number of zones or all zones. Expensive, but is really top top class..

Dublin Bus should be state owned as should all transport and there needs to be major route amalgamations, but to remove buses in times of strife and take away routes is ridiculous..

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Originally Posted by kingdom hoop

Has anyone of late been to a city with modern public transport infrastructure? Where you're given information like at Luas or Dart stations but for buses? I appreciate there are more stops for buses but I can't imagine the installation of a (sturdy) little digital box thing being overly expensive, and especially so relative to its benefits.

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Tokyo. Wherever you live, you'll be near a train that is punctual, cheap, safe, and reliable. Buses slightly less punctual, but only slightly. No technology like you've mentioned at bus stops there though, only train stations.

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Originally Posted by Bald Student

I was reading that the bus routes in Belfast were all redone a few years ago. They replaced all the old routes with a dozen or so fast routes into the city and various feeder routes surrounding that.

It's the type of thing that Dublin needs to do as well but changing a bus route down here seems to be the most arcane, drawn out process that I don't think it'll ever be done. The city could come out of this well if Dublin Bus use the cover of the recession to bring in some needed changes but it's anyone's guess whether they'll do that or simply cut whatever's easiest to cut.

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Well yes in Belfast back in 2005 they rebranded citybus to Metro and painted the buses pink and white:o but yes theres 12 key routes throughout the city on the main corridors which have increased frequency of Buses on them the other quieter routes have remained the same. Basically its just meant that the bus system in Belfast has been simplified so its easier to follow. don't know if it would work in Dublin which is a fair bit bigger though.

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Originally Posted by SolitudeRed

Well yes in Belfast back in 2005 they rebranded citybus to Metro and painted the buses pink and white:o but yes theres 12 key routes throughout the city on the main corridors which have increased frequency of Buses on them the other quieter routes have remained the same. Basically its just meant that the bus system in Belfast has been simplified so its easier to follow. don't know if it would work in Dublin which is a fair bit bigger though.

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Dublin Bus seem to be taking baby steps in that direction. They have maps of wheelchair accessible bus routes (which seems to be code for reliable bus routes) on the main stops. But it seems to be a company too afraid of itself to make any major changes. They might surprise us and bring in some proper reform under the cover of the recession but I won't be holding my breath on the issue.

Well it must have been a successful change for Belfast because they implemented the same thing in Derry as well only without the pink buses!

I presume Dublin Bus is privately owned or at least in some sort of public private partnership thing?

No, the government owns all of Dublin Bus.

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Originally Posted by dfx-

Nothing beats Zurich's transport system for efficiency, reliability and usefulness. One ticket for one zone, a number of zones or all zones. Expensive, but is really top top class..

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To use that regularly you would unfortunately have to live in Switzerland.

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Originally Posted by dfx-

Nothing beats Zurich's transport system for efficiency, reliability and usefulness. One ticket for one zone, a number of zones or all zones. Expensive, but is really top top class..

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Not just Zurich, thewhole of Switzerland. Or at least, you can add Basel too. I could give the trams countdowns, and they'd arrive to the second. Amazing system. Easier to do that for trams than buses obviously.

bus eireann weren't long following suite. They are letting 320 jobs go and cutting a number of buses from the fleet.

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Originally Posted by pete

To use that regularly you would unfortunately have to live in Switzerland.

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Well we can club together and sell our Bulgarian holiday villas now to get a one bedroom flat in Zurich (or Basel) if that's the case..