Where is the Beef?

Brian Cowens Governments increased Cowardice and failure to address the current crisis in a proper manner is increasingly worringly, they are hiding out from the public and seem to be still in a state of shock /denial at the pace of the downturn. The Dail is in recess till the end of the month and both cowen and his apparatchik Tanaiste are heading to Japan next week:confused:, meanwhile 120 people join the Dole crews every day and the country heads for an unthinkable meltdown.. Its is now time for the assembly of an emergency cabinet (forget about Party Policitcs) with Dermot Bruton a qualified economist taking the place of the inept Brian Lenihan....

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Brian Cowens Governments increased Cowardice and failure to address the current crisis in a proper manner is increasingly worringly, they are hiding out from the public and seem to be still in a state of shock /denial at the pace of the downturn. The Dail is in recess till the end of the month and both cowen and his apparatchik Tanaiste are heading to Japan next week:confused:, meanwhile 120 people join the Dole crews every day and the country heads for an unthinkable meltdown.. Its is now time for the assembly of an emergency cabinet (forget about Party Policitcs) with Dermot Bruton a qualified economist taking the place of the inept Brian Lenihan....

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I'd prefer Richard Bruton, but in any case I don't think its quite yet time to suspend democracy.

Let the people get what they deserve.

I know she's not everybopdy's cup of tea, but Joan Burton has played a blinder in the past few months. (As has Bruton, who has also tried to propose solutions instead of just lobbing grenades from the outside.)

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

I know she's not everybopdy's cup of tea, but Joan Burton has played a blinder in the past few months. (As has Bruton, who has also tried to propose solutions instead of just lobbing grenades from the outside.)

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I know the media have been praising her, but she has as many misses as hits. Although at least she is throwing punches and she seems to be getting better with the subject matter.

I've been critical of Bruton in the past (notably because he was employed by the ESRI who I believed didn't do their job by failing to flag the risks of the housing bubble early enough), but he undoubtedly knows his stuff.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

notably because he was employed by the ESRI who I believed didn't do their job by failing to flag the risks of the housing bubble early enough

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How long ago was he working in the ERSI? Must have been a long time ago?

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Originally Posted by Macy

How long ago was he working in the ERSI? Must have been a long time ago?

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Not sure if he went back during his time when he lost his Dail seat, but in any case yes, I'm being a bit unfair!

But he was also silent for most of his time as Deputy Leader during the good times.

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Originally Posted by monutdfc

I know she's not everybopdy's cup of tea, but Joan Burton has played a blinder in the past few months. (As has Bruton, who has also tried to propose solutions instead of just lobbing grenades from the outside.)

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I've no faith at all in FF. But I've little enough that Bruton would do a huge amount differently. he talks a good game but I hear a lot of platitudes and dynamic talk about the need for cutbacks, cost reductions, etc... but scarce little specifics on where, when and how it's to be managed.

Also his sketchy plan for our eventual recovery sounds remarkably similar to FFs ...persuade more itinerant multi-nationals to come/stay here and chuck chicken feed to our relatively well educated work force.

Similar with Joan Burton. They have an open goal at their mercy with the way this government has handled things and they're not giving specifics.

Not sure there was a need for a seperate thread on this by the way.

Joan Burton might be good politician but I don't see her as being good enough for Finance.

Has there ever been a worse leadership than the three amigos Cowan/Lenihan/Coughlan? Everytime he speaks Cowan tells us drastic action is needed but he doesn't actually make any decisions. As I have said before his first action should be to sack half the Junior Ministers who do nothing anyway - after that he might be able to get the rest of us to accept his tax increases.

I think FF will be destroyed in the local elections. Debatable if people would vote in similar way for a General Election.

I think that's a little harsh on both Bruton and Burton. Bruton has been going on about essentially zero based budgetting on how we get outcomes rather than current method of maintaining current budgets for years. There is some merit in this, although surely there'd be cost implications of carrying out such a process. FG also produced the reports on the number of State Agencies and the like.

Labour also produced an economic stimulus plan. Again, not without fault, but it was produced months before the Government produced anything (and as Lenihan said this morning, that wasn't even a plan it was just a framework). The longer the banking crisis goes on, the more right Labour are looking for voting against the bank garantee. It's already affecting our borrowing, so the "cost nothing" talk has proved to be outright lies by FF.

I think people are believing the FF spin too much about the Opposition offering nothing different.

Dragging this off topic but the bank guarantee was the right thing to do. But it needed to be accompanied by an iron fist of clearing out the senior management, forcing mergers and ensuring that SME lending was maintained.

Labour either voted no IMHO as part petulant protest (just to be different) and partly because they wanted nationalisation, which wasn't feasible in the short-term.

Burton also displayed a complete lack of grasp of her brief during this period, although this is the fault of her advisers as she can't be expected to know everything from the get go.

But, don't get me wrong, whilst I'm not fully convinced by either, I'd have either FG or Labour in in a second if it was my choice as they can't do worse than the incumbent clowns.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Dragging this off topic but the bank guarantee was the right thing to do. But it needed to be accompanied by an iron fist of clearing out the senior management, forcing mergers and ensuring that SME lending was maintained.

Labour either voted no IMHO as part petulant protest (just to be different) and partly because they wanted nationalisation, which wasn't feasible in the short-term.

Burton also displayed a complete lack of grasp of her brief during this period, although this is the fault of her advisers as she can't be expected to know everything from the get go.

But, don't get me wrong, whilst I'm not fully convinced by either, I'd have either FG or Labour in in a second if it was my choice as they can't do worse than the incumbent clowns.

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Burton ate Peter Power for breakfast on Q&A on the bank guartantee (mind you, when he didn't know a banks lending sits on the asset side of the balance sheet it wasn't too difficult). She was also the only one who challenged Lenihan about the cross-guarantee being removed from the bank guarantee bill (ie where one bank goes down the others pay first). This was one of Lenihan's big selling points when he presented the guarantee, and was removed from the bill (at AIB and BOI's insistence) after the vote. When challenged Lenihan said it was not a big issue!
Having said all that, I agree the guarantee was correct, in principle, at time. (although it was incorrectly structured in a typically ham-fisted way, and some of the nonsense spouted, mainly by Lenihan, at the time was just that - nonsense).

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Dragging this off topic but the bank guarantee was the right thing to do. But it needed to be accompanied by an iron fist of clearing out the senior management, forcing mergers and ensuring that SME lending was maintained.

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My recollection is that it was the absence of the iron fist that was Labours problem - no change in management, no upside for the state.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I'd prefer Richard Bruton, but in any case I don't think its quite yet time to suspend democracy.

Let the people get what they deserve.

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There are constitutional provisions to select non-elected individuals to fill certain ministeries and that has happened in Ireland in the past.

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

There are constitutional provisions to select non-elected individuals to fill certain ministeries and that has happened in Ireland in the past.

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I know whats possible, I'm articulating a different point of view.

The people deserve to get what they voted for. FF haven't changed in the last 6 months, is just much easier to get away with incompetence in benign circumstances.

The pain might make the electorate learn the hard way (although I doubt it).

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

There are constitutional provisions to select non-elected individuals to fill certain ministeries and that has happened in Ireland in the past.

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Minister for Finance must be elected to the Dail (some numbskulls were touting McCreevy doing a Mandelson into the Senate and back into Finance - so actually numbskulls on two fronts 1) wanting one of the main men responsible for the mess back in a position to fook things up further and 2) that it wasn't constitutionally possible.)

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Originally Posted by Macy

Minister for Finance must be elected to the Dail (some numbskulls were touting McCreevy doing a Mandelson into the Senate and back into Finance - so actually numbskulls on two fronts 1) wanting one of the main men responsible for the mess back in a position to fook things up further and 2) that it wasn't constitutionally possible.)

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Surely McCreevys Corporation Taxation policies were commendable for attracting foreign investment, obviously the Section 23 property Taxation breaks contributed to the current mess, but McCreevy was proactive and most of all his own man, Lenihan is a softy a numbskull and he proved it again this morning on Morning Ireland with his civil servant spin about social partnership etc...
Lenihan, Cowen and Coughlan are the biggest waste of space in the States History - Products of Nepotism and Public Service with no grasp or understanding of the private sector - Feed them to the Lions

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Surely McCreevys Corporation Taxation policies were commendable for attracting foreign investment, obviously the Section 23 property Taxation breaks contributed to the current mess, but McCreevy was proactive and most of all his own man, Lenihan is a softy a numbskull and he proved it again this morning on Morning Ireland with his civil servant spin about social partnership etc...

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McCreevy was annoying & argumentative but to some extent he did make decisions. The current "leadership" are clones of Bertie & seem to try their hardest not to make a decision. Even if I did not agree I would like some action.

Lenihan is hapless, Coughlan is toothless, Cowen looks like a rabbit in the headlights, counting on the support of his party to get through the numerous crisis.

Why did FF get re-elected? The ability to protect the € in the pocket.

Apparantly.

I had it in my head for last few years to set up my own business but kept putting it off.Im not gonna turn my back on the country just yet and will stcik around and try and set it up here.However ive been told theres no chnace of getting a loan or grant for a start up business plan from the banks or government.That bailout was meant to be so that small businesses and to a lesser extent potential business start ups could remain on their feet and get going respectively.With the banks not giving small businesses money its a recipe for further disaster on a huge scale.Where the F$ck is the 400million?????????

If anyone had the chance to see Minister for Labour Billy Kelleher on Prime Time Last night, you would instantly recognise that this leadership is clueless, the cliches and the line "we can get through this if we all work together through social partnership" nearly turned my stomach with the sheer bloody weakness and spin and lack of direction...

Mr Cowen would be mindful of a bit of Advice Mikhail Gorachev gave to the aging communist leader of East German in 1989 when all around him change was in the air and Honecker refused to change his policy or make any decisions or concessions - Gorby simply said " Life punishes those who delay" - a few days later Honecker was removed from power and the rest as they say is history...

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Mr Cowen would be mindful of a bit of Advice Mikhail Gorachev gave to the aging communist leader of East German in 1989 when all around him change was in the air and Honecker refused to change his policy or make any decisions or concessions - Gorby simply said " Life punishes those who delay" - a few days later Honecker was removed from power and the rest as they say is history...

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The problem is though, that Fianna Fail have realised that the Irish electorate don't punish those who delay, or those who do any one of a dozen other things which should result in the death of a political career.

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

If anyone had the chance to see Minister for Labour Billy Kelleher on Prime Time Last night, you would instantly recognise that this leadership is clueless, the cliches and the line "we can get through this if we all work together through social partnership" nearly turned my stomach with the sheer bloody weakness and spin and lack of direction...

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I wasn't paying attention at the start so wasn't sure who he was. I thought for a while he was a Labour back bench TD. Slowly came to realise he was a FF TD. Even more shocked to hear he is an actual Minister. Woefully inept performance full full of cliches. "tell dell how important they are to Limerick" "competitiveness" "social partnership" blah blah blah...

What does the Minister for Labour do anyway?

Ah poor old Billy, reminds me of the Tim Nice but Dim character on Harry Enfield; broke a FF record by getting the word "global" in as just his 3rd word (they are all on message to say the word "global" as many times as possible in any discussion on the economy). In our glorious democracy, they needed another minister from Cork, looked around and said hey Billy, you'll do.

Don't worry he's not a "real" Minister...

In any case if you believe the papers and meedja in general, we don't have a Government anymore per se, we have the ruling junta of Cowen, Lenihan and Coughlan, who allegedly are barracading themselves away together at every available opportunity and excluding the rest of the cabinet from major decisions and generally trying their damnest to grasp the title of Most Out of Their Depth Person from the current title holder (jointly awarded to Pat Neary and Lucy Kennedy)....

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

Surely McCreevys Corporation Taxation policies were commendable for attracting foreign investment, obviously the Section 23 property Taxation breaks contributed to the current mess, but McCreevy was proactive and most of all his own man, Lenihan is a softy a numbskull and he proved it again this morning on Morning Ireland with his civil servant spin about social partnership etc...

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The low corporation tax rates pre-date McCreevy. The property taxation avoidance schemes helped fuel the boom, as did his constant cutting of direct tax base. His over reliance on consumption taxes has directly lead to the sudden massive hole in the public finances, as well as severely limiting what can be done to stimulate the economy now. His privatisation of eircom has also left us with a terrible telecoms infrastructure, further weakening our position.

All I could do is laugh at Cowen talking about our unsustainable levels of public expenditure; as if it was somebody else's fault! he was only the f-ing finance minister that increased public expenditure to current levels

The Dell lay-offs in Limerick is going to put increased pressure on the three Stooges - Oh what the hell wheel out Billy Kelleher again!

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

The Dell lay-offs in Limerick is going to put increased pressure on the three Stooges - Oh what the hell wheel out Billy Kelleher again!

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I am unconcerned about the Dell lay-offs as the Tánaiste has set up a task force that will prioritise job creation in the mid west. Though this will doubtless create problems for her back on the ranch where her predecessor also set up a task force to prioritise job creation in the north-west. Though maybe their work is complete and Donegal has full employment again now. Excellent. Sorted.