What hope for change?

JD, from Emmet Malone's story in the Times today.

"He subsequently repeated the claim that eight of the 22 clubs will make a profit this year, but conceded the point made privately by a number of clubs: that the association includes among the clubs described as profitable even those that make substantial trading losses which are then covered by owners or other benefactors. "If somebody wants to put their own money without any recourse then that's something that they're entitled to do," he said."

What hope is there for serious change when the CEO continues with his Pavada like news management. Even the most ardent of LOI fans amongst us accept that nearly ever club is in severe difficulties.

Will there be serious changes for as long as this mindset remains? Clubs will continue to "get away with it" for as long as this view exist. I had many issues with the P1 proposal, but it didn't beat about the bush in terms of the financial state of the game here was.

Drury and Roddy's plans may have been ill judged, but their analysis of the current state of the game was a lot more grounded that Delaney's view.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Will there be serious changes for as long as this mindset remains? Clubs will continue to "get away with it" for as long as this view exist.

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If clubs could be bothered running themselves right and not into the ground then there might be a chance. The attitude that clubs " continue to get away with it" probably sums up the league really. Lets make up budgets off the top of our heads, over estimate attendance by thousands - cut the budget mid-season, release players, cry when it doesnt work out and blame the governing body.

Until each club looks at themselves seriously and want to actually run within their means then the league wont change; no matter how many controls are put in place. I hope the "quick win" attitude adopted by clubs dies off completely so we can get back to run a league that actually makes headlines for it's football

Care to speculate as to the 8 teams likely to make a profit? I presume it's across both divisions?

Premier:
St Pat's - I assume they're covered by Kelleher's investment.
Sligo - Had some cut backs and a major fund raising drive, possible, but not likely.
Shamrock Rovers - Very tight budget. Will be borderline.
Galway - Cut costs big time and did it early, had a good cup run and survived, might be a surprise.

First:
Monaghan - A tightly run ship.
Wexford Youths - League cup run, decent crowds, no wages, astro facilities.
Dundalk - Sealed promotion, reports all season from Dundalk fans that they were going to have a good year financially.
Sporting Fingal - Outlay guaranteed for 5 years by their investors.

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Originally Posted by passinginterest

Care to speculate as to the 8 teams likely to make a profit? I presume it's across both divisions?

Premier:
St Pat's - I assume they're covered by Kelleher's investment.
Sligo - Had some cut backs and a major fund raising drive, possible, but not likely.
Shamrock Rovers - Very tight budget. Will be borderline.
Galway - Cut costs big time and did it early, had a good cup run and survived, might be a surprise.

First:
Monaghan - A tightly run ship.
Wexford Youths - League cup run, decent crowds, no wages, astro facilities.
Dundalk - Sealed promotion, reports all season from Dundalk fans that they were going to have a good year financially.
Sporting Fingal - Outlay guaranteed for 5 years by their investors.

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We look very likely to post a profit, which is amazing. We look likely to make a 2 year budget as well this year instead of a one year budget so that we just don't go all out for next season being that we are in Europe and the Setanta which is quite forward thinking imo.

Galway lost E150k last year, budgeted for E300k (?) higher wages but got stung at the gates. Even getting rid of players, I'd say they still made a six figure loss.

Would doubt Sligo too, even if their mid season woes did seem to be cash flow rather than profit. (Edit - above post wasn't there when I said that!)

We're not one, for the record. Though we are one of the five teams between break even and a E50k loss.

Remember though, it's all coming (presumably) from the management accounts, which can be complete nonsense. Did Bohs bring ground sale income into their accounts early, for example?

He also said he hoped there'd be four full time teams next year. Pat's obviously; Cork, Bohs and Derry the others? Rovers, Sligo and Dundalk at a push, but Sligo saw how hard it was this season.

But he does seem to want the full-time stuff kind of blindly, which is worrying. Bit like Fran Gavin holding Drogheda up as a model club, or saying Bohs were unlucky with their recent misfortunes.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

"If somebody wants to put their own money without any recourse then that's something that they're entitled to do," he said.".

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In hindsight (after this years problems) I feel the FAI need to readjust this policy to have some protection for owners who walk away leaving debts,

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Originally Posted by pete

In hindsight (after this years problems) I feel the FAI need to readjust this policy to have some protection for owners who walk away leaving debts,

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They have to move to a bond system - the two high profile financial bombs were somebody putting their own money in and then just pulling the plug. They have to take their own wage cap seriously - from what Delaney is saying they've no intention of going that route.

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Originally Posted by neutrino

Until each club looks at themselves seriously and want to actually run within their means then the league wont change; no matter how many controls are put in place. I hope the "quick win" attitude adopted by clubs dies off completely so we can get back to run a league that actually makes headlines for it's football

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Whilst ultimately it is the clubs fault for over spending, surely the reasoning behind licencing is that the clubs have to be run properly. So it is back to the FAI as the licencing body.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

He also said he hoped there'd be four full time teams next year. Pat's obviously; Cork, Bohs and Derry the others? Rovers, Sligo and Dundalk at a push, but Sligo saw how hard it was this season.

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I wouldn't like to see us going down the Galway route of gambling on full time football. Especially with the uncertain climate we're in at the moment..

According to Nick Leeson in today's Connacht Sentinel Galway United are looking at a loss of €300,000 to €400,000 this season. That loss will be covered by the board but the club will revert to part time next season.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Remember though, it's all coming (presumably) from the management accounts, which can be complete nonsense.

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100% agree. Wouldn't trust the paper they are written on. only after a proper audit could these accounts be classified as reliable.

BTW No way do I want dundalk to go the way of professionalism if we cant afford it. Even if we get bankrolled, in a couple of years we'll be back to square one .
We couldn't sustain it with our gates at the moment

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

We look very likely to post a profit, which is amazing. We look likely to make a 2 year budget as well this year instead of a one year budget so that we just don't go all out for next season being that we are in Europe and the Setanta which is quite forward thinking imo.

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A two year plan is forward thinking? Whatever happened to four or five year plans? Not a dig at Sligo btw, just on the state of the league, where a two year plan counts as long-term forward planning.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

He also said he hoped there'd be four full time teams next year. Pat's obviously; Cork, Bohs and Derry the others? Rovers, Sligo and Dundalk at a push, but Sligo saw how hard it was this season.

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Dundal would be extremely foolish to go full-time next season. This season with quite a few full-time teams and three going down it was easier to make the argument that promoted teams needed to be full-time or at least be making tracks towards it to be able to compete: with maybe four full-time next season, you do not need to blow all your money on full-time wages to be competitive. The most important thing is to stay up and consolidate over a few years.

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Originally Posted by thischarmingman

A two year plan is forward thinking? Whatever happened to four or five year plans? Not a dig at Sligo btw, just on the state of the league, where a two year plan counts as long-term forward planning.


Dundal would be extremely foolish to go full-time next season. This season with quite a few full-time teams and three going down it was easier to make the argument that promoted teams needed to be full-time or at least be making tracks towards it to be able to compete: with maybe four full-time next season, you do not need to blow all your money on full-time wages to be competitive. The most important thing is to stay up and consolidate over a few years.

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Who mentioned a 2 year plan? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

Who mentioned a 2 year plan? :confused:

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Isn't that what a two-year budget is? :confused:

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Originally Posted by GuisaSaigon

According to Nick Leeson in today's Connacht Sentinel Galway United are looking at a loss of €300,000 to €400,000 this season. That loss will be covered by the board but the club will revert to part time next season.

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Ouchee.

Didn't the board say they were covering the loss last year too?

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

I wouldn't like to see us going down the Galway route of gambling on full time football.

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Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite

BTW No way do I want dundalk to go the way of professionalism if we cant afford it.

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Originally Posted by thischarmingman

Dundal would be extremely foolish to go full-time next season.

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Agree with all that; just trying to work out who Delaney's four full time clubs are to get a look into his mind.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Agree with all that; just trying to work out who Delaney's four full time clubs are to get a look into his mind.

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Bohs, Pats, Derry and Cork.

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Originally Posted by thischarmingman

Isn't that what a two-year budget is? :confused:

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Do you think a budget and a plan are the same thing? :D

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Originally Posted by mrtndvn

Bohs, Pats, Derry and Cork.

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That's what I thought alright. But I can't see how Bohs can be encouraged to continue full time, and even Derry's pushing it. Just makes you wonder what he's thinking inside.

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Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac

Do you think a budget and a plan are the same thing? :D

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1. An itemized summary of estimated or intended expenditures for a given period along with proposals for financing them:
2. A systematic plan for the expenditure of a usually fixed resource, such as money or time, during a given period:
3. The total sum of money allocated for a particular purpose or period of time: a project with an annual budget of five million dollars.

v., -et·ed, -et·ing, -ets.

v.tr.

1. To plan in advance the expenditure of: needed help budgeting our income; budgeted my time wisely.

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Yes, isn't it?

A plan can be strategic and developmental and other stuff. A budget's primarily concerned with money. They're related, and you don't ususally have one without having the other, but they're not the same.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

and even Derry's pushing it.

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Just want to note that we're probably more accurately described as 'all but' full-time. Most of our players are on full-time contracts, most of our staff aren't.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

They're related, and you don't ususally have one without having the other, but they're not the same.

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This was what I meant. Surely a football team can't do one without the other?

Surely a football team can't make a plan without making a budget to ensure it has money for said plan?

What planet have you been living on the last, ooh, five years?

Plan - sell our ground and qualify for the Champions' League and take over the world!

Budget - Duhhh. :confused:

But if that were the case then teams like Shelbourne, Drog- oh...oh...I see.

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Originally Posted by thischarmingman

Just want to note that we're probably more accurately described as 'all but' full-time. Most of our players are on full-time contracts, most of our staff aren't.

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This is dragging the thread off topic but that's incorrect. I'd say one part time staff member of about 10.

Macy- they aren't prepared to envisage a bond scheme, it was asked at the Fans Forum.

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Originally Posted by thischarmingman

Yes, isn't it?

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This is getting rather silly young man, you are trying to say a plan and a budget are the same thing, grow up and take your oil and admit you misread my post ;) :D

Or else go and read a dictionary and compare and contrast both :D

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Originally Posted by thischarmingman

But if that were the case then teams like Shelbourne, Drog- oh...oh...I see.

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Sligo are different though. They just are.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

This is dragging the thread off topic but that's incorrect. I'd say one part time staff member of about 10.

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Fair 'nuff.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

"He subsequently repeated the claim that eight of the 22 clubs will make a profit this year, but conceded the point made privately by a number of clubs: that the association includes among the clubs described as profitable even those that make substantial trading losses which are then covered by owners or other benefactors. "If somebody wants to put their own money without any recourse then that's something that they're entitled to do," he said."

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This reminds me a lot of the government's approach to the recession and the Banks' problems. They must know themselves that things aren't right but bringing in the big changes that are needed would force them to admit that they were wrong in the past. They're afraid that admitting that would put their own jobs at risk so instead we get much smaller adjustments in the hope that the problems will eventually fix themselves.

clubs need to relaise that putting everything into teh football team will only get them so far. Longer term plans need to be put in place so that we are no longer living from hand to mouth.
Players will move on sooner or later, paying 100% of income, and in a lot of cases more than 100% of income to players is foolish at best, facilities and structures need to be put in place to secure the long term future of our clubs and our leagues. I thought that was the point of the 65% rule. So we could focus on other aspects of our football clubs.

this is silly if you have a plan then it folllows that you have a budget otherwise your plan will....fall....apart .. ive just realised where the clubs have gone wrong

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Originally Posted by El-Pietro

Players will move on sooner or later, paying 100% of income, and in a lot of cases more than 100% of income to players is foolish at best, facilities and structures need to be put in place to secure the long term future of our clubs and our leagues. I thought that was the point of the 65% rule. So we could focus on other aspects of our football clubs.

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Not wanting to pick on Drogs in particular but if they spent their 12m on facilities they would have something to build on for the future - they could have probably built the stadium without the need for houses. Instead they had a few good years & some trophies but nothing left now.

What hope for change?

Sod change, sure don't we have the most entertaining league in the world? Seriously, there's never a dull moment :)

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Originally Posted by Macy

They have to move to a bond system - the two high profile financial bombs were somebody putting their own money in and then just pulling the plug. They have to take their own wage cap seriously - from what Delaney is saying they've no intention of going that route.

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This was asked at the Fans Forum. They are against a bond as apparently it may turn away further investment. My view would be if the investors aren't prepared to commit to a bond then they may not be the right type of investors. People may claim that beggars can be chosers etc, but we have to draw the line somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Whilst ultimately it is the clubs fault for over spending, surely the reasoning behind licencing is that the clubs have to be run properly. So it is back to the FAI as the licencing body.

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My view is that they have the wage cap is a bit like licensing, another " Look sure don't we have this". Both of them are completely useless if they are not implemented. If the association don't take them seriously then the clubs think they don't have to.

We are rapidly running out of investors and fans to save the clubs, and the general populous are becoming more and more disinterested in the League of Ireland. European success is not attracting the crowds back. We need to get the domestic game in order, particularly in terms of infrastructure, and then try and build again though.

However if we never get honesty from all the stakeholders, we'll be in a constant tailspin until the next implosion.

Continue the marginalisation of football fans who don't have the best interest's of the LoI at heart.

I guess optimism in the face of the facts is a prerequisite for supporting a club in this league, but maybe this close season might be the first chance in a while for a little sanity to return to the scene. Only one club, as far as I can see, can budget without regard to possible current income for next season (Pats). We're in limbo, some unguessable place between a return - probably not next year, though - to semi-pro status, and modest prosperity; Cork and Derry will survive as pro- or largely pro- set ups but won't be paying silly money to anyone. As a consequence, the 100 or so players out of contract and looking for new deals will not have the same bargaining power as they have had an any time since the turn of the century, since only one club will be able to meet extravagant wage demands, and even Johnny Mac doesn't need 100 players to win the league. Once they cherry pick whoever they want, the rest will be faced with short and relatively unlucrative deals, or going abroad - some will, obviously, but the majority will have to settle for what they can get. It might be boring for a while, but maybe - as with the economy in general - the bubble has finally burst.....

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Originally Posted by pete

Not wanting to pick on Drogs in particular but if they spent their 12m on facilities they would have something to build on for the future - they could have probably built the stadium without the need for houses. Instead they had a few good years & some trophies but nothing left now.

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100% true. If they really cared about drogs thats what they would have done.

Another case of a bunch of clowns running a club.

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Originally Posted by sonofstan

It might be boring for a while, but maybe - as with the economy in general - the bubble has finally burst.....

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Agreed.

The chance was there for Delaney to outline that the clubs are having a very tough time, there are going to have to be serious changes, that we need to start of scratch again, refocuse on reducing cost base.

Talk any speech by any reasonable business figure in the last six months, replace the relevant sector with the League of Ireland and you've the template.

No, instead he bumbles on regardless. The rest of the country thinks the game here is a joke, most of us accept that it is on its last legs. At what point will the FAI agree with us and start the change required?

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Originally Posted by CelticTiger

Interesting thing from rte.ie

Have a look,its a good listen.Troubled Times In eircom League

Theres also this
No Title Sponsor For League


And this This Week: eircom League difficulties

And......The State of Irish Soccer: Panel Discussion

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None of those links work.

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Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite

Wouldn't trust the paper they are written on. only after a proper audit could these accounts be classified as reliable.

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Damned untrustworthy paper. It's the real cause of the LoI's problems, you know.