Geunine question regarding examinership

Printable View

16/10/2008, 11:33 AM
Rovers Maniac

Geunine question regarding examinership

Ok lads still a little ignorant about the whole process and what exactly a clubs hope to get out of it. So, i am hoping maybe some of you could put me straight of what exactly a club that enters this process hope to acheive.

I understand it is a process of protecting the club/company that runs the club from its creditors. Thats fine, What i can't figure out is that this seems like a perfect solution to racking up a load of debt and then dumping it of for �0.10 or �0.15 cent in every euro? It just seems like a god send, all good no downside and so easy to get that we should all be at it every couple of seasons.

With Shamrock Rovers and Cork City i could see that new owners wanted to come in and take the club over, and that in that respect they both understood that things could not continue as they were and change was needed. The main argument seems to have been, by the current owners of both Shams and Cork (400 c and TC&Foras), that they felt the previous owners were not capable or incompetent of running the club and that they could run it at cost, thus both allowing their communities to benifit from a decision of allowing them to start ove again.

But the thing that pickles me about the whole process is, lets take Drogheda, to me it is going to be the same faces running the club after? Vincent Hoey (who comes across on TV as an awful nice man and a man any club would love to have) stated that he hoped that the club would remain full time ! I mean surely this is a case of them applying for this, hoping to get their slate wipped clean and then continue on again paying way to much wages and racking up debts? Is examinership the new in-thing in Irish football? Seems to be.
16/10/2008, 11:34 AM
jebus

For the record you can't just say that you are going to pay off 10c of every euro owed. The people you owe money to have to accept these terms
16/10/2008, 11:40 AM
6yardpunisha

http://www.examinership.ie/examinership.htm

might be of some use
16/10/2008, 11:40 AM
red bellied

Drogheda owe the Revenue half a million. Dont think they will accept 10c in the euro.
16/10/2008, 11:49 AM
SMorgan

You're right Mr. Hoey does come across as a very nice man who has DUFC's interests at heart. However, sometimes I wonder to myself, is he up front, spinning or in denial.

It appears to me that the non-payment of E1/2m in taxes has little to do with plans to move to a new ground. As with any other club, these are bills that should have been paid regardless of any hard luck story.
16/10/2008, 12:24 PM
finnpark

Quote:

Originally Posted by red bellied

Drogheda owe the Revenue half a million. Dont think they will accept 10c in the euro.

How do they owe the revenue money when they are making losses? :confused:

Is it VAT or something?
16/10/2008, 12:26 PM
Jeebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by finnpark

How do they owe the revenue money when they are making losses? :confused:

Is it VAT or something?

Paye & Prsi.
16/10/2008, 12:38 PM
Buile Shuibhne

Rovers & Cork were different in that they didn't own their ground - whereas Drogheda do.

Presumably this counts as a core asset and can't be touched by creditors yet?

Drogheda must be fairly confident that the Examinership will work out and they won't be put into receivership?

More of a gamble for Drogs though than it was for Rovers & Cork?
16/10/2008, 12:38 PM
Conor H

An examiner is an officer of the Court appointed by the Court.
Examinership is commonly refered to as the "Breathing Space".Basically no legal action can be brought against the Co. during the process.

An examiner will only be appointed if the courts believe the Co. has a chance of survival.
At the end of the process he proposes a "Scheme of Arrangment" which can be accepted/rejected by the Court.
16/10/2008, 12:38 PM
blackholesun

Dont forget that players can reclaim tax paid under the sportsman revenue thingy when they retire if they have played here for 10 years or whatever that was brought in to stop the likes of O'Driscoll going to France.

In the Rovers & Cork case the previous players lost out bigtime because the tax was never paid so can never be reclaimed!

A subtle point that is probably overlooked by many dopey players!

So its not really the tax man who is losing out but the players themselves in the long run.

bhs
16/10/2008, 12:39 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fintan Cassidy

More of a gamble for Drogs though than it was for Rovers & Cork?

Did they have a choice once Hoey threw his toys out of his pram?
16/10/2008, 12:41 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fintan Cassidy

Rovers & Cork were different in that they didn't own their ground - whereas Drogheda do.

Drogheda don't own the ground.
16/10/2008, 12:42 PM
Buile Shuibhne

He didn't do himself any favours with the planning authorities - if they survive, secure investment for a new ground and go looking for planning permission.
16/10/2008, 12:43 PM
Buile Shuibhne

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Drogheda don't own the ground.

Was it not tied up in some exchange deal with the developers of the proposed new ground?
16/10/2008, 12:48 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fintan Cassidy

Was it not tied up in some exchange deal with the developers of the proposed new ground?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...069691359.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by IT

It was hoped to use the proceeds of the sale of United Park, a ground not owned by the club but vested in the FAI, to fund the development of a new stadium, residential units, offices and leisure facilities.
16/10/2008, 12:49 PM
holidaysong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fintan Cassidy

Rovers & Cork were different in that they didn't own their ground - whereas Drogheda do.

Actually, the FAI own United Park as far as I know.
16/10/2008, 12:53 PM
pineapple stu

But if it's sold and Drogheda get a new ground, Drogs buy it back off the FAI for a notional E50k and keep the balance I think?
16/10/2008, 12:54 PM
Buile Shuibhne

Fair enough they don't own it outright as such but presumably they hold some 'interest' in it from which they would benefit?

Quote:

It was hoped to use the proceeds of the sale of United Park, a ground not owned by the club but vested in the FAI, to fund the development of a new stadium, residential units, offices and leisure facilities.
16/10/2008, 3:16 PM
iceman

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But if it's sold and Drogheda get a new ground, Drogs buy it back off the FAI for a notional E50k and keep the balance I think?

Correct Stu , more or less , its was IR�35K , so whatever that works out at.
17/10/2008, 10:38 AM
Mr A

Can a club that has been in examinership play in Europe the following season? I think there is a UEFA rule that says that clubs that have been in administration cannot within 3 years take part in European competition.

Does anyone know the full picture on this?
17/10/2008, 10:44 AM
Dodge

Good point Mr A. I think one of the northern teams was stopped going into europe this year (Coleraine?)
17/10/2008, 10:46 AM
Steve Bruce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

Good point Mr A. I think one of the northern teams was stopped going into europe this year (Coleraine?)

That's correct
17/10/2008, 10:57 AM
Schumi

The examinership process here is different to what happens in the UK though isn't it?
17/10/2008, 11:00 AM
Dodge

Similar though, and if its a UEFA rule surely they'd have to cater to individual member countries and their varying legal systems?
17/10/2008, 3:46 PM
blackholesun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schumi

The examinership process here is different to what happens in the UK though isn't it?

Huuh? Arent they very similar! Whats the difference?

Any club that lives beyond their means and screws up deserves to be punished according to the laws as a penalty to them and a deterent to others.

If Cork are barred from Europe, then I think it could be between the Rovers' for the 4th spot unless Galway win the Cup. Next weeks game at the Showgrounds might be extra spicey now!

bhs
17/10/2008, 4:00 PM
blackholesun

From Coleraine's wikipedia page ...

"The club's well-publicised financial problems had already overshadowed much of the 2003-04 season and at its end the club was forced to operate on a reduced budget, with several top players leaving. Despite this a top six finish was still achieved. The summer of 2005 saw more budget cuts and several big names leaving the Showgrounds, but this time the main concern for fans was the very future of the club. In August, the Inland Revenue filed for a winding-up order against Coleraine due to debts of �1.3 million. The Friends of Coleraine, worked tirelessly to persuade the High Court to postpone the hearing to allow them to put together a business plan to show that the club could be viably run. Eventually the court ruled in the club’s favour and they were allowed to enter administration and a steering committee was set up to run the club."

It appears in the UK, its administration followed by possible winding up.

In .ie it is examinership, followed by possible winding up.

http://www.kavanaghfennell.ie/insolvency.aspx

bhs
18/10/2008, 3:34 PM
BulmersKid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr A

Can a club that has been in examinership play in Europe the following season? I think there is a UEFA rule that says that clubs that have been in administration cannot within 3 years take part in European competition.

Does anyone know the full picture on this?

I was under this impression as well, but I couldn't see anything in the UEFA licensing manual about a ban.

From the little of the manual i have read (too boring to read all of it), a club can't get a licensing if it is currently in administration. But I can't see anything about banning a team that have come out of administration. It just has to meet of the other criteria for obtaining a licensing from what i can see.

But someone might know that me. Acgtually someone will know more that me :)