Raider died after he was stabbed up to five times

http://www.examiner.ie/irishexaminer...496-qqqx=1.asp

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RAIDER died after he was stabbed up to five times in the stomach when he was attacked by locals following a botched supermarket robbery.


The man, named yesterday as 23-year-old Paul Howe from Tallaght, died in hospital just hours after he and a fellow raider were cornered in the car park of SuperValu in Killester in Dublin at 8.30pm on Wednesday.

Local resident and Fine Gael Dublin City Councillor Gerry Breen said the incident was “a terrible thing” and said members of staff and the public involved in the confrontation with the raider may have acted out of adrenaline and fear.

“I am not trying to justify it, but adrenaline is a funny thing,” he said. “If the crime was not perpetrated [in the first place] there would be no fatality now.”

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Tend to agree with If the crime was not perpetrated [in the first place] there would be no fatality now.

No sympathy.

i have a bit of sympathy with the person(s) who stabbed him, could be looking at a manslaughter charge, when they should be getting a medal

Last I checked robbing a store didn't give an automatic death sentence, don't get me wrong this Paul Howe sounds like he's no loss to society but you could also have called this thread 'Angry Mob Murder Robber', and it would have been apt.

Plus this quote is ridiculous

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“I am not trying to justify it, but adrenaline is a funny thing,” he said. “If the crime was not perpetrated [in the first place] there would be no fatality now.”

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Imagine a rapist using this in court. 'Your honour if she wasn't wearing that short skirt none of this would have happened, damn adrenaline got me so worked up'

thats a bit of an extreme example jebus to be fair, im not condoning him being killed at all im just saying i feel sorry for the people who stabbed him to death insofar as they are more than likely looking at a manslaughter charge.

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Originally Posted by hula4

thats a bit of an extreme example jebus to be fair, im not condoning him being killed at all im just saying i feel sorry for the people who stabbed him to death insofar as they are more than likely looking at a manslaughter charge.

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And rightly so. Jesus Christ they're scumbags too

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Originally Posted by jebus

And rightly so. Jesus Christ they're scumbags too

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do you know these people?

All depends on the circumstances, but on the face of it there seems to have been a vicious and premeditated homicide, and the perpetrator should be charged with nothing less. If it was a struggle which spilled over outside the premises and a mutual knife fight ended in this manner, there might be some wriggle room.

I can't believe that idiotic comment about adrenaline. If a robber stabbed someone gratuitously and not in the course of the crime itself, it would be considered an aggravating, not a mitigating, factor. Why was this individual carrying a lethal weapon and why did he pursue the criminal once the danger had apparently passed? Very few people get stabbed in self-defence, much less five times. Stabbing is an unnatural act requiring a tremendous deal of exertion which would be beyond most normal people, whatever the circumstances.

Doubtless he'll get off if it ever comes to trial. I'm sure the Garda's friend Paul Reynolds has the victim's charge sheet at his fingertips and is spinning crazily on behalf of the Guards already.

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Originally Posted by hula4

do you know these people?

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A mob of people chased a guy, caught him and beat him and then some of them decided to stab the beaten man 5 times. What would you call them?

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Originally Posted by hula4

i have a bit of sympathy with the person(s) who stabbed him, could be looking at a manslaughter charge, when they should be getting a medal

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Do you think in future perhaps the sentence for robbery should be changed from a prison sentence to the death penalty?

Its a sad day when we start looking up to the filth that carried out this killing.

Throw the book at them, I say.

Some very judgmental stuff here from both ends of the spectrum. I'd prefer to wait til there's a few more established facts on the table before deciding it's alright to use lethal force on (apparently armed) robbers -OR that the full weight of the law should be brought down on other persons who's only premeditated act may have been to nip out for a paper and a pint of milk.

I will say this -under my bed within handy reach lies a shovel handle with "eircom phonewatch" scrawled on it crudely in marker. If I ever awake to discover there are intruders in my home I intend to inform them loudly that they've activated eircom phonewatch and should get out now. If they proceed up the stairs thereafter -all bets are off.

Given the opportunity and good fortune I'll bludgeon any moving thing til I'm satisfied it's not moving any more and I'll chuck in a couple of insurance slaps to ensure they don't get back up. I will not monitor or keep count of how many blows are delivered. I'll do it all without referal to how it'll look to the cops, to a trial judge or in the papers and I'll rationalise it that I stepped up to the plate when my family needed to be protected.

Having that little plan is probably a reflection of the times we live in -that people feel the response of the proper authorities will be too little and too late. Also -in having that little plan I have an infinitely higher degree of pre-meditation than is likely with any of those involved in this tragedy.

World of difference between you protecting yourself, your partner and your kid in your home to one or two guys stabbing a man that has just been badly beaten by a mob Lionel to be fair. If you hit the intruder with the shovel, knocked him out and then proceeded to walk to the kitchen, get a carving knife, walk back to the unconcious robber and stab him to death I'd probably be calling for you to be thrown in jail as well though. No hard feelings though :p

We probably won't hear much more details either as the gardai have somehow let them off without charge

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Originally Posted by jebus

World of difference between you protecting yourself, your partner and your kid in your home to one or two guys stabbing a man that has just been badly beaten by a mob Lionel to be fair. If you hit the intruder with the shovel, knocked him out and then proceeded to walk to the kitchen, get a carving knife, walk back to the unconcious robber and stab him to death I'd probably be calling for you to be thrown in jail as well though. No hard feelings though :p

We probably won't hear much more details either as the gardai have somehow let them off without charge

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that statement while factually correct, just shows the ignorance some people have in relation to how the system works.

if you want the facts the person who killed him walked up to the first Garda at the scene and handed himself over.

And in relation to "somehow being let of with charge" Guards NEVER decide the punishment for a serious incident like this, they prepare the file and send it to the D.P.P. who decides whether the person should be charged or not.

the Gardai had no reason to hold the suspect further once they had finished interviewing him and taking the relevant samples etc, it obviously isnt a murder case and they were satisfied with the persons identity and he is not a flight risk so they had no reason or power to hold them any further

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1011/howep.html

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A 28-year-old man has appeared before the Dublin District Court charged with the robbery of a supermarket in Killester on Wednesday.

Joseph Rafferty, with an address at Russell Place, Russell Square, Tallaght, was one of two men who allegedly raided the Supervalu supermarket and robbed €3,000.

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Not a small robbery. i read the two question were a security gurad & a husband of one of the shop workers, hardly scumbags. As said here already , if they did over step the mark then they'll face a court. It's bit early to be jumping to conclusions about how the robber was stabbed. I also read that the only weapon was the one the raider had.

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Originally Posted by jebus

World of difference between you protecting yourself, your partner and your kid in your home to one or two guys stabbing a man that has just been badly beaten by a mob Lionel to be fair.

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Absolutely. But my point essentially was that in these confrontational situations people don't check the reference manual to see how much force they can or can't use. The take the next step they deem neccessary, regardless how extreme it may seem in hindsight, and adopt a "bill me later" attitude to the consequences.

There's a lesson for would be robbers and would be have a go heroes in this too. Never, ever pull a weapon unless you're absolutely prepared to use it.

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

Doubtless he'll get off if it ever comes to trial. I'm sure the Garda's friend Paul Reynolds has the victim's charge sheet at his fingertips and is spinning crazily on behalf of the Guards already.

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funny:) - "well known a ss licker" - isnt that what Vincent Browne called him on air once - he is a good friend of the boyz in blue thats for sure

i actually used to visit this shop in Killester quite regularly, the early morning staff there always seemed decent

as for adrenaline - i mean if someone put a knife to your girls throat what would you do? - as alleged in some papers

i remember when i was in bed one morning and the door was kicked in with a fella holding a meat cleaver - i was so shocked i ran for him, and was shouting like a mad man - i did all this without even thinking and it worked as the fella legged it out the door as fast as he could - its funny what you can do when you are confronted with situations like this, and when anger can take over.
In my situation that fact i was in my under wear, and had a ragin hanover might also have been a factor!!!!:eek:

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

funny:) - "well known a ss licker" - isnt that what Vincent Browne called him on air once - he is a good friend of the boyz in blue thats for sure

i actually used to visit this shop in Killester quite regularly, the early morning staff there always seemed decent

as for adrenaline - i mean if someone put a knife to your girls throat what would you do? - as alleged in some papers

i remember when i was in bed one morning and the door was kicked in with a fella holding a meat cleaver - i was so shocked i ran for him, and was shouting like a mad man - i did all this without even thinking and it worked as the fella legged it out the door as fast as he could - its funny what you can do when you are confronted with situations like this, and when anger can take over.
In my situation that fact i was in my under wear, and had a ragin hanover might also have been a factor!!!!:eek:

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I think you in your underwear was probably the reason he ran away.

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Originally Posted by jebus

World of difference between you protecting yourself, your partner and your kid in your home to one or two guys stabbing a man that has just been badly beaten by a mob Lionel to be fair.

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We don't know the circumstances yet. As I understand it, the robber was stabbed in the course of the struggle - no reason to suggest it was premeditated or even deliberate at this stage. The only crime we know of is the actual robbery.

As fas as I'm concerned the world is a better place without Paul Howe cluttering it up and wasting our oxygen. Fact of the matter is that there was a struggle when the armed robber attempted to flea with his stolen money. I don't believe for a second that the 'mob' :rolleyes: took the knife from his back pocket where he'd carefully placed it after his initial crime. He was obviously chased, brandished the knife, threatened again to use it and got his just deserts to be completely honest. No loss at all. If any of the people involved have a history of knifing armed scum then perhaps the possibility of charges should be explored but if, as is most likely, they were just regular people threatened with violence and bodily harm who reacted against that turn them loose and set them on their way.

One of the papers over the weekend (cant remember which one ) said that the guards believe that Paul Howe was held down and then attacked with a knife and a bar!!!

To me IF this is true then those who comitted the act will face a manslaughter charge at the very least.

I heard from people I know who work nearby the shop in Killester that it was a security and the fella of a girl wjho works there that went after the thieves.

However the full story will not come out until the trial, but that said I dont know how a councillor can make that statement quoted in the first post, ridiculous thing to say IMO