something for lovers of our language

Ireland tables formal proposal request official and working status

for the Irish language in the European Union


The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mr. Dermot Ahern, TD, has announced that Ireland is today tabling a formal proposal requesting that official and working status be accorded to the Irish language in the European Union.


The decision to table the formal proposal follows the Government’s decision in July to initiate a process of discussions with the other EU Member States and EU Institutions in this regard.



In undertaking discussions on this sensitive matter, the Government has sought to identify the issues arising and the practical options open to it in pursuing the objective of obtaining official and working status for the Irish language.



In effect, the Government is proposing that certain key EU legislation (that adopted jointly by the Council and the European Parliament) would be translated into Irish. Under the proposal, the possibility of extending the range of documents to be translated into Irish would be the subject of a review to take place not later than four years after adoption of the current proposal.



“This proposal, if agreed by the Member States, would represent a significant positive and practical step forward for the Irish language in the EU,” said Minister Ahern.



The proposal requires the amendment of Regulation 1 of 1958, which governs the Union’s language regime, to include Irish as an official and working language of the Union. Amendment of this Regulation requires the unanimous approval of partners.

Perhaps their time and money might be better spent promoting the language at home. Then we might have a need for EU documents to be translated into Irish, which doesn't really exist atm...

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Perhaps their time and money might be better spent promoting the language at home. Then we might have a need for EU documents to be translated into Irish, which doesn't really exist atm...

adam

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eh?

There are c. 250k afaik that use Irish in everyday life. Why should these people be denied their constitutional right?
We are spend a good deal of money at home (finally). You can get most acts in Irish now (www.achtanna.ie) and the Official Langauges Act has finally enforced what our constitution set out to do years ago. A lot of resources have been pumped into this in recent years.

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Originally Posted by SÓC

There are c. 250k afaik that use Irish in everyday life.

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Where? Perhaps you're right but I find it very difficult to believe that 250,000 Irish people use Irish as their primary language, so I'd like to see stats. Even with that, 250k is 1/16th or 6.25% of the population, which brings me back to my original point: Wouldn't the time and money be better spent on promoting the language at home? Which would you prefer, access to documents that a miniscule percentage of people will read (in English, never mind in Irish), or more people speaking the language? Which do you feel is more practical?

adam

I speak fluent Hector Irish - its mostly just english with a navan accent

wow - hector - what a fad that was

adam i think u have this one. how many people actually read this stuff in english any way? maybe as high as 1%. meaning that approz 0.0625% of irish people can't read eu documents in their first language but can instead read it in the language that they read everything else.
but at the root of this is the principle of it all. irish is our national language even though it is very rarely spoken.

Think dahamsta's right there - have to promote Irish at home before there's any need to go wasting money translating thick legal documents which no-one's going to read in English, let alone Irish.

There are nowhere near 250000 Irish speakers in the country - even in the Gaeltacht, not everyone speaks Irish.

A much better way of doing something for the language was what I heard on the news there just last week - Harry Potter is being translated into Irish. There's something young people can read and foster an interest in the language. More of that sort of thing would be a much better use of money.

The 250k is quite accurate if looked from outside of business (ie in the home and with friends). There are swathes of Dubs who speak Irish in the home, from all sectors of society might I stress, that for obvious reasons don't use it at work and in the pub.

What most people neglect, probably because it was covered up by whatever eejit did it, is that the ONLY reason Irish doesn't have official status is a clerical error. It wasn't some big bad nasty government/EU policy. The error was actually made about eighteen months to two years before it when the government was asked if they wanted it and someone said no. That sounds conspiratorial until you realise that it wasn't noticed by anyone in or out of government until it was too late. The only reason I know is becasue a small number of initiatives/academic courses were told that they couldn't count English as part of a foreign language requirement (which in the course I was coming from was discriminatory although normally it's just common sense)unless the applicant was schooled at second level as gaeilge/spoke Irish at home/came from a designated Gaeltacht area. A postgrad course I considered going for required this, so I was fine as I fit the first option.

This is the one thing that no-one has brought up in the entire debate because only a small handful of people, both Irish and English speakers know about it.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Where? Perhaps you're right but I find it very difficult to believe that 250,000 Irish people use Irish as their primary language

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Ah I never said primary language. People who use it as their primary language is somewhere near 74,000 last I heard but Im open to correction. Just people who use it every day

I underestimated, way underestimated. The figure is actually 339,541 according to the 2002 census. (http://www.cso.ie/census/pdfs/vol11_entire.pdf page 54)

The Government is spending money here in putting Irish forward, finally. In Ó Cúiv we have a great Minister who actually cares and who words have carried force at the cabinet table. Look at the number of gaelscoileanna. Look at the sucess of TG4 and RnaG. The Official Languages Act in the most important piece of Language law in this counrty ever.

European statutes should IMO be available if the English ones are. Why would someone who speaks the State's first official language have to resort the English when the constituiton guarantees them their rights, rights the Supreme Court affirmed a few years ago.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

- even in the Gaeltacht, not everyone speaks Irish.

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Mind you, you try rolling up there with an English accent, and you just watch 'em. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Aberdonian Stu

What most people neglect, probably because it was covered up by whatever eejit did it, is that the ONLY reason Irish doesn't have official status is a clerical error. It wasn't some big bad nasty government/EU policy. The error was actually made about eighteen months to two years before it when the government was asked if they wanted it and someone said no.

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I thought that it hasn't been an official EU language since we joined (seem to remember Conor blaming FG for it ;) ). It only came to light in the last while because of some stupid email campaign...

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Originally Posted by SÓC

Look at the sucess of TG4 and RnaG.

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Don't get me wrong, as I think TG4 is the best of the Irish stations, but a hell of a lot of it's content is english language, from documentaries to films.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Don't get me wrong, as I think TG4 is the best of the Irish stations, but a hell of a lot of it's content is english language, from documentaries to films.

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True but their mainstays of Hector, Ros Na Rún and Nuacht ar all as gaeilge. They haev a very decent Saturday Night Chat Show too. The Sport they do is in Irish too.

They have to use English language materials, there is just not enough material out there in Irish. They use it to fill the gaps and attract new viewers which IMO is fair enough.

RnaG dont allow any English which I think is a bit silly.

I don't want to be misunderstood here: I have no problem with promotion of the Irish language, in fact if anything I'm asking for more promotion here, not less. I wish I could speak the language properly myself and I hope that someday in the next few years I'll have the opportunity to do so. (Spanish first though, which comes back to practicality again.) However...

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Originally Posted by SÓC

European statutes should IMO be available if the English ones are. Why would someone who speaks the State's first official language have to resort the English when the constituiton guarantees them their rights, rights the Supreme Court affirmed a few years ago.

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...don't you feel that you're putting rights above practicality here? I'm all for rights as everyone here should well know, but exactly how many people will actually go and read those documents? I honestly couldn't see it being any higher than a couple of hundred, if that. Again, wouldn't the time and effort being put into this right now be better ploughed into promoting the language at home, adding to what's already being done? And come back to this particular issue at a later date, when these initiatives are more successful?

Fighting for minorities is great, but surely a little balance is in order?

adam

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Originally Posted by Conor74

Don't recall.

But as I blame FG for everything else, including the weather and the inavailability of King Crisps in most pubs, I may well have fired that one at them too... ;)

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Sure it's okay as I held FF equally responsible as they backed the yes vote in the referendum - Labour, the true keepers of the Irish language, were against it... :D

Labour...the true keepers of the Irish language...give me a break! Just because they have more people with an interest in the arts doesn't mean they can claim that title. (Incidentally if you were being sarcastic I humbly apologise). If anything that should go against them as half te battle is trying to make it more than just an arty thing, which is a bit of a problem but that's a whole other debate that I truly couldn't be bothered getting involved in right now.

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Originally Posted by Aberdonian Stu

(Incidentally if you were being sarcastic I humbly apologise).

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Apology accepted. tbh there's far more pressing concerns, and these kind of stories just distract attention away from them tbh (and imo). I just assume this has been used to bury the decentralisation fook up's from yesterday....

Well it's an odd way to bury it, O Neachtain was harping on about it for a few days builiding up to the announcement and the only ones picking up on it were TG4/Lá/Foinse and it seems to have only picked up momentum since the Euro elections. I'm not a big fan of his, but he seems to be the man that gave the government a kick up the rear end on the issue.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

However don't you feel that you're putting rights above practicality here? I'm all for rights as everyone here should well know, but exactly how many people will actually go and read those documents? I honestly couldn't see it being any higher than a couple of hundred, if that. Again, wouldn't the time and effort being put into this right now be better ploughed into promoting the language at home, adding to what's already being done? And come back to this particular issue at a later date, when these initiatives are more successful?

Fighting for minorities is great, but surely a little balance is in order?

adam

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Thats grand if the Government was some form of business interest where funds would be diverted to one area or another if they were not used in a certain sector. That doesnt tend to work with public money in my experience of the Civil Service/State Bodies.

Lets just say the translation of the Euro statutes costs €100. The Government are spending €400 on Irish Language promotion. IF you decided not to go ahead with the Euro translation that €100 will not be sent to add to the €400. It'll be send back to the central coffers and most likely used to build a horse racing venue or the likes.

True not many people would read them but sure not many people read them in English. Not many lawyers/law students ever get round to them either:o . I just think if they are available in English they should also be available in Irish.

I knew this was coming next and I was going to try to preempt you, but it just would have confused the debate. It was either that or "but we'll be creating jobs," so I'll address that first, get it out of the way: Creating translation jobs for the sake of the aforementioned minuscule number of people that would actually read the documents would be a rough equivalent of setting a new street-cleaning standard that requires the pavements to be hoovered and buffed by hand. Sure, loads of jobs will be created, but seriously, let's be a bit realistic here. Now, moving on...

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Originally Posted by SÓC

Thats grand if the Government was some form of business interest where funds would be diverted to one area or another if they were not used in a certain sector. That doesnt tend to work with public money in my experience of the Civil Service/State Bodies.

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It doesn't, I agree with you.

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Lets just say the translation of the Euro statutes costs €100.

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Or we could say that a pint of lager costs two shillings and sixpence. €100 per paragraph maybe...

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True not many people would read them but sure not many people read them in English.

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(I did make that point earlier. It has about as much bearing in your post as it had in mine. :))

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I just think if they are available in English they should also be available in Irish.

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As an idealist, I agree with you absolutely. In an ideal world these documents would be available in English, Irish, Ulster Scots, and possibly even Navajo. However the realist in me wins hands down on this occasion: This is a complete waste of time and money until such time as a lot more people are literate in Irish. A hell of a lot more people.

However I'll rephrase my "wouldn't the money be spent on the promotion of the language at home" comments, since we both agree that that won't happen by default. Try this: Wouldn't your time be better spent lobbying for promotion of the Irish language at home than lobbying for the translation of documents that will be read by a tiny minority of people? And if you were successful, and Irish wasn't assigned working status, wouldn't they have somewhere to pull that money from?*

You are lobbying aren't you? You have written to all of your TDs, MEPs and local councillors, and the Ministers responsible, and the Taoiseach, and the Opposition leaders and Shadow Ministers, and European Ministers, and respresentative organisations, and all of the media outlets?

(I'm being facetious of course, and I don't want an answer, because that's your business and none of mine. But of course if you really do want something, that's what you should be doing. Going to the polls is unfortunately just 1% of democracy. But I'm lecturing now, so I'll shut up.)

adam

[size=1]*Again, this is a ridiculous assertion. I'm just making a point.[/size]

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I have no problem with promotion of the Irish language, in fact if anything I'm asking for more promotion here, not less.

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Hé - cad mar gheall ar fórum Gaeilge ar foot.ie? Ansin beimis in ann Gaeilge a rá agus i nós na gaoithe beimis go léir ag caint le chéile i nGaeilge!

It sounds sad, but I honestly reckon the best chance Irish has to survive is by translating the Harry Potters, Agatha Christies, Douglas Adamses, etc., into Irish and encouraging a new generation to read Irish. I can speak Irish, but can hardly read a word. Reading Irish at a young age is the briegd between learning Irish in Junior Infants and speaking it fluently in adult life. It's been neglected for ages and it's great to see it being addressed at last. Maybe in 100 or 200 years, we can have a decent percentage speaking Irish. But I can't see it happening before that...