Is the Premiere League rubbish?

So England go home with a miserly point.

I think the Premier league is damaging for English and Irish players
because of all the foreign players pushing them out to the top clubs
and ultimately out of football altogether.

It is interesting when you look at the teams going home early:-

England, Italy, Spain, what do they all have in common?
They all play in an international league packed with foreign 'mercenaries'.
I think that brings a lot of negatives to the national team, too little opportunity
combined with too much money. Player's allegiance is to their club not their country.

Tricky... spelling of thread titles... sort it out...

Having leagues packed with foreign mercenaries didn't do Italy and Spain much damage when they were winning the last two World Cups. And by your logic Irish players are foreign mercenaries so should presumably be doing well out of it all.

Don't Spain and Italy have a much much higher number, and percentage, of home grown players in their leagues?

England's problem is that it is a league run to maximise TV revenue globally. It's a league run by the elite clubs for the elite clubs. The league earns 5.5 billion quod over 3 seasons yet there is a facilities crisis in grassroots football. The FA is a peripheral figure in running its own game. Germany's league is run with producing a good national team as one of its objectives, though it too has a high-ish number of overseas players.

Italy has its own unique governance problems.

i think there's a lot of over analysis though. England lost two very tight games that they could easily have won, especially if their much touted world class Rooney lived up to his billing. He missed a key chance at a key moment in each game. Ballotelli had one chance and took it, Suarez had two and took both. I do, however, think England are unable to go out and utilise a gameplan and I also think Hodgson was too quick to try and satisfy the press by giving them what they wanted, attacking football from young players. If his instinct was to draw against Italy he should have played for it.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Having leagues packed with foreign mercenaries didn't do Italy and Spain much damage when they were winning the last two World Cups. And by your logic Irish players are foreign mercenaries so should presumably be doing well out of it all.

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I think Irish player are a different category altogether, they have a long tradition of playing in english leagues.

As for Italy and Spain winning the last two World Cup well:-

1) We are further down the road than than us Spain they have 59% home grown the Premiership
is down to 32.26%

2) Italy and Spain did better than England both actually won a game!!!

3) There will be a considerable time lag before the damage feeds through, 10 years or more, England have
been rubbish for some time. England had 35.43% in 2007-08 so the rot is well set in, firmly bedded.
Unfortunately I don't have complete stats but just a general impression.

But I think it must be damaging because ultimately you end up with less home grown players
playing the game. Let choice available, player who might have been late developers give up on the
game early because of the stiff competition, and younger players who would have go a club in the past
don't get a club any more.

I think it leads to player losing their national identity and pride too there main concern is their club and raking
in the big bucks.


Why bother busting a gut in the World Cup when it could mean injury and a huge loss in income?

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Tricky... spelling of thread titles... sort it out...

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I can't seem to change the title in the forum listing just in the tread title in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Don't Spain and Italy have a much much higher number, and percentage, of home grown players in their leagues?

England's problem is that it is a league run to maximise TV revenue globally. It's a league run by the elite clubs for the elite clubs. The league earns 5.5 billion quod over 3 seasons yet there is a facilities crisis in grassroots football. The FA is a peripheral figure in running its own game. Germany's league is run with producing a good national team as one of its objectives, though it too has a high-ish number of overseas players.

Italy has its own unique governance problems.

i think there's a lot of over analysis though. England lost two very tight games that they could easily have won, especially if their much touted world class Rooney lived up to his billing. He missed a key chance at a key moment in each game. Ballotelli had one chance and took it, Suarez had two and took both. I do, however, think England are unable to go out and utilise a gameplan and I also think Hodgson was too quick to try and satisfy the press by giving them what they wanted, attacking football from young players. If his instinct was to draw against Italy he should have played for it.

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Yes they do, Spain has 59% as I stated earlier, can't find figures for Italy but more than 59% I expect.

And even Germany could be packing their bags early, remember the USA beat Ghana, Germany could only manage
a draw. Portugal also packing their bags, not sure of the composition of their league though.

Perhaps also worth noting France are actually losing players to foreign clubs which means more French player
coming into replace them creating a greater player pool and France are doing well, as are Holland and Belgium
but I don't have any solid info on them but I doubt they have a huge amount of foreign players.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Yes they do, Spain has 59% as I stated earlier, can't find figures for Italy but more than 59% I expect.

And even Germany could be packing their bags early, remember the USA beat Ghana, Germany could only manage
a draw. Portugal also packing their bags, not sure of the composition of their league though.

Perhaps also worth noting France are actually losing players to foreign clubs which means more French player
coming into replace them creating a greater player pool and France are doing well, as are Holland and Belgium
but I don't have any solid info on them but I doubt they have a huge amount of foreign players.

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And all three of those countries benefit from huge links with former colonial outposts.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

I can't seem to change the title in the forum listing just in the tread title in the thread.

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Another example of you not being sure, so hedging your bets?

Japan is a big country with its own league. Conclusion?

The odds are against European countries in South America. The reasons for Europe and Africa's underperformance are many and varied and let's not forget, it's football, stuff happens.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

I think Irish player are a different category altogether, they have a long tradition of playing in english leagues.

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Without wanting to wander down well-trodden arguments, we really need to stop lumping ourselves in with England and develop our own footballing culture. And we've improved on that in recent years in fairness (Forde, Hoolahan, Delaney, Sammon, Fahey, Coleman, Long, Doyle, etc in the national team). But we need to break free from the shackles of the English game.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Without wanting to wander down well-trodden arguments, we really need to stop lumping ourselves in with England and develop our own footballing culture. And we've improved on that in recent years in fairness (Forde, Hoolahan, Delaney, Sammon, Fahey, Coleman, Long, Doyle, etc in the national team). But we need to break free from the shackles of the English game.

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Perhaps interesting that Coleman developed in Gaelic football, which says something about football coaching I think!!!

But what is that something?

I think to answer your original point -

The Premier League isn't rubbish. That's clear by how well the teams do in Europe. (Even a bad season is better than most other leagues) Stutts' answer covered all the bases, in my opinion.

I just wanted to highlight that we need to get away from the mindset of "Sure England will train our players; we can't do it ourselves" Clearly we can.

I do agree with you that the amount of foreigners in the Premiership is hurting the English national team. But that's different from the PL being rubbish. And if that's where the money is...

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Without wanting to wander down well-trodden arguments, we really need to stop lumping ourselves in with England and develop our own footballing culture. And we've improved on that in recent years in fairness (Forde, Hoolahan, Delaney, Sammon, Fahey, Coleman, Long, Doyle, etc in the national team). But we need to break free from the shackles of the English game.

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(Cole)man is born free, but in England he is in chains -- Keely

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Perhaps interesting that Coleman developed in Gaelic football, which says something about football coaching I think!!!

But what is that something?

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Coleman developed in a very good underage system in St Catherines clubs in Killybegs as well as Gaelic football. The lad grew up playing football every spare hour of his days too. There's a lot to be said for the commitment from a young fella.

Imagine if we had a properly looked after football league system and underage system in this country..we wouldn't have to give a damn what happens in England, or how strong the 'Premiere League' is.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Coleman developed in a very good underage system in St Catherines clubs in Killybegs as well as Gaelic football. The lad grew up playing football every spare hour of his days too. There's a lot to be said for the commitment from a young fella.

Imagine if we had a properly looked after football league system and underage system in this country..we wouldn't have to give a damn what happens in England, or how strong the 'Premiere League' is.

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I'd say he got some pretty good instruction in Sligo too and in Everton.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I'd say he got some pretty good instruction in Sligo too and in Everton.

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How positively Dodgian of you.

I'm hoping that this will be a watershed moment for English football similar to the 5-2 defeat by Hungary with the knock-on effect being beneficial for our young lads, who, (though I wish it wasn't the case), are still going to be moving there in the future.

I've never seen the English react to failure like this, even when Romania knocked them out at the 2000 Euros.

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Imagine if we had a properly looked after football league system and underage system in this country..we wouldn't have to give a damn what happens in England, or how strong the 'Premiere League' is.

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Yes, but unless you undo the last say few hundred years of history for various reasons, we're never going to have the population to justify this. Plus large parts of the current populace, rightly or wrongly, are significantly into other sports!

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Without wanting to wander down well-trodden arguments, we really need to stop lumping ourselves in with England and develop our own footballing culture. And we've improved on that in recent years in fairness (Forde, Hoolahan, Delaney, Sammon, Fahey, Coleman, Long, Doyle, etc in the national team). But we need to break free from the shackles of the English game.

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I agree. It has been said numerous times in the last few years - if I remember Ray Houghton and Packie Bonner were the last two big names to say it - that we need to develop our game at home if the international team is to be successful. If this World Cup has thought me anything it's that teams built around teamwork (wow what a novel idea) with a certain cameraderie built out of longish relationships playing together, and working towards a common goal (ie players not putting themselves in the shop window for their next big money contract) is paramount to success.

The LOI could provide that to some degree if it ever got the finances needed to get going. And I would really love to see our young lads head off to placed like Belgium, France, Holland instead of slavishly to England all the time. The game there teaches them nothing.