LoI/GAA discussion

I know it's all rumour and supposition right now, though is there an inkling of why they were turned down?

Just following on a point from PS - re. supporters owned clubs, in my general experience with them there have been a handful who are well run or even worthwhile, the rest live year to year or are a nest of internecine strife with the richest gunslinger in town running the show until his money runs out or his promises fall short. It has been always spoken about how the continental model (Germany and Spain in particular) are good ways to go, but ego can always outstrip sense and clubs like Kaisersalutern, Dortmund and the financial wrecks in Spain (who get sweetheart deals with local councils to rescue them) are not paragons of virtue. However Irish efforts can work far easier if (I'm prepared for the usual nonsense and blowhardism on this one) a GAA-type model is followed. It runs contrary to the prevailing attitude which is ingrained in Irish football and all the way to the top of the FAI, but utilising the best bits of the GAA in the running of a football club can make a long term sustainable business and competitive club.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

However Irish efforts can work far easier if (I'm prepared for the usual nonsense and blowhardism on this one) a GAA-type model is followed. It runs contrary to the prevailing attitude which is ingrained in Irish football and all the way to the top of the FAI, but utilising the best bits of the GAA in the running of a football club can make a long term sustainable business and competitive club.

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What would the 'best bits of the GAA in the running of a football club' grafted onto the LoI look like?

I mean, as far as I can see 'a GAA-type model' is where players play for nothing and managers get....well, something.... (I'm not clear on the legal implications for this website if I say anything less vague).

You're not talking about volunteerism on and off the pitch, though, are you?

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Originally Posted by born2bwild

What would the 'best bits of the GAA in the running of a football club' grafted onto the LoI look like?

I mean, as far as I can see 'a GAA-type model' is where players play for nothing and managers get....well, something.... (I'm not clear on the legal implications for this website if I say anything less vague).

You're not talking about volunteerism on and off the pitch, though, are you?

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Well volunteerism already exists in the LOI (Dundalk is an example I can quote right off) while GAA players get better looked after than many in the LOI. I'm totally against payment for players or managers in the GAA, expenses yes, though as soon as professionalism comes in the code is over.

There are a great many things the LOI can take from the GAA to make it a viable entity - in fact the FAI can borrow quite a bit to move on with itself. Just two things that can easily be done to give the LOI a boost. 1. Get properly into local Primary Schools (within the catchment area) - weekly coaching sessions, assisting with school teams - and this links to the second point. 2. Have a proper club structure in place from the youngest age category up to the LOI team - this takes alot of joined up thinking, effort and long term planning, but it pays off in every way. Using these two points you'll put numbers on the gate, gain a deeper identity, get young players into your system right away, compete with rival sports bodies and create a club community.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Well volunteerism already exists in the LOI (Dundalk is an example I can quote right off) while GAA players get better looked after than many in the LOI. I'm totally against payment for players or managers in the GAA, expenses yes, though as soon as professionalism comes in the code is over.

There are a great many things the LOI can take from the GAA to make it a viable entity - in fact the FAI can borrow quite a bit to move on with itself. Just two things that can easily be done to give the LOI a boost. 1. Get properly into local Primary Schools (within the catchment area) - weekly coaching sessions, assisting with school teams - and this links to the second point. 2. Have a proper club structure in place from the youngest age category up to the LOI team - this takes alot of joined up thinking, effort and long term planning, but it pays off in every way. Using these two points you'll put numbers on the gate, gain a deeper identity, get young players into your system right away, compete with rival sports bodies and create a club community.

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Thats a laugh.
The GAA could learn a thing or two from the LOI and actually pay the people who generate the money.
I know the LOI falls short on the above on more than one occasion but at least we actually try to pay our players.
This romantic bullcrap that its somehow progressive not to pay players who generate profits is ridiculous and insulting.

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Originally Posted by Rasputin

Thats a laugh.
The GAA could learn a thing or two from the LOI and actually pay the people who generate the money.
I know the LOI falls short on the above on more than one occasion but at least we actually try to pay our players.
This romantic bullcrap that its somehow progressive not to pay players who generate profits is ridiculous and insulting.

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There is a slight difference in that if players here weren't getting paid to play they could go across the water and get paid over there. GAA have never paid players (apart from "expenses") whereas soccer players have generally always been paid.

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Originally Posted by passerrby

I'm not talking about making the break from junior to senior ,that's not a bad idea by the way but I'm referring to loi clubs hovering up the best under 12, 13 14 in an area which causes resentment in the underage game and stifles potential support

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I think you might have misunderstood the dynamic - plus how likely is it that all the young players will go to the LOI club and that all will progress up the leagues - it just doesn't happen. If LOI clubs don't have the structures in place to coach from children (under-9's) up, and I'm not talking about this "Academy" stuff, but actual teams with an overall plan, then they don't deserve to be in the League. I attended a meeting yonks ago to listen to Fran Rooney speak with LOI club reps, one basic tenet he proposed was that in order for clubs to be allowed compete in the LOI they had to have a full structure for boys and girls from 7 years old up to senior, as they have in many clubs on the continent. It's been a long time ago but I am certain the only person who spoke in support was from Bray and uniformly the other reps said it strained resources, was a waste of money etc. Done right, have a structure to incorporate from kids up to seniors means a stronger club - I can speak from experience of (just one place) Hessen where Eintracht had teams down to little kids yet there was interaction between them and other clubs and fees pay (as Peadar describes) for players moving etc. It makes sense, except for the LOI and Irish football.

Rasputin, your reaction is exactly what I expected, yet it's alone. Focusing solely on paying players (in any sport) is the last reserve of the defeated - it's beyond players, it's down to structures, game promotion and community engagement. No need to go on a defensive attack.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Rasputin, your reaction is exactly what I expected, yet it's alone. Focusing solely on paying players (in any sport) is the last reserve of the defeated - it's beyond players, it's down to structures, game promotion and community engagement. No need to go on a defensive attack.

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Last reserve of the defeated? Oh jesus wept.
The players generate the entertainment, they do the labour hence they deserve the fruits of their labour with the money and profits they generate.
Just because the GAA is an expert at exploiting the naivity of farmers sons does not mean we should jump on that parasites bandwagon, its disgusting.

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Originally Posted by Rasputin

Last reserve of the defeated? Oh jesus wept.
The players generate the entertainment, they do the labour hence they deserve the fruits of their labour with the money and profits they generate.
Just because the GAA is an expert at exploiting the naivity of farmers sons does not mean we should jump on that parasites bandwagon, its disgusting.

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If you can just move past the bias and try objectivity for a moment, and just focus on what was suggested as a way for LOI clubs to stabilise and grow rather than petty slagging of another organisation, it would be really helpful. You've made the points, in our own way, that you don't view anything positive from the GAA to be used in football, point taken, nothing more for you to see here, fair enough.

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GUST did offer the 2 clubs an olive branch to come to some arrangement which would strengthen Galway football in the forseeable future, but they were told where they could stick it.

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Terry, what kind of co-operation was suggested, do you know? Since all 3 clubs would be in the 1 division and (as was mentioned earlier on the thread) at least 1 of the other clubs is struggling to field teams, player swaps don't look likely and a merger would be like turkeys voting for Christmas.

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Originally Posted by Rasputin

Last reserve of the defeated? Oh jesus wept.
The players generate the entertainment, they do the labour hence they deserve the fruits of their labour with the money and profits they generate.
Just because the GAA is an expert at exploiting the naivity of farmers sons does not mean we should jump on that parasites bandwagon, its disgusting.

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More and more pressure on the "amateur" nature of bogball as it is. To be fair they did milk the amateur status and ploughed all money into facilities etc over the years. This model would not be sustainable (to start) now in bogball never mind trying to introduce it to LOI football.

Bogball also mastered the art of sourcing funding - Govt grants especially. And parish/local identity was a major factor in the ability to source funds (involvement of local T.D.s etc).

Constantly hear the refrain about "learning from the Gah" and no doubt the Gah did a great job over the years for their sports but I am not sure what aspects we could realistically adopt in LOI now.

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Originally Posted by Longfordian

Fairly harmless now that neither of us are doing spectacularly well! When we were winning things there was a fair bit of resentment over there, and probably vice versa when they were winning things though I'm too young to remember that...

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Ouch. Just ouch.

MB, referring to the sport as bogball kinda ruins anything else to follow - though I'll point to what you pointed out yourself - engaging the local community (and their reps). Also getting into schools, starting structures from the youngest age up and complementing what is existence (in terms of Junior and underage clubs). Simple, effective and outside the realm of possibility in LOI.

Longfordian, what's the situation in the club this year in terms of sponsorship and funding? I ask simply as I met one of your reps over here for the Irish match and he was talking about 2012 being a strong season for the club. I cannot for the life of me remember his name - he was/is 5'5"/5'6, heavy set, grey haired, moustache, hates the Monaghan boss and loves a jar. Probably doesn't narrow it down much.

But spud I don't know a loi club that is not doing exactly that including your own but this takes time and remember there is strong opposition in certain quarters so while loi is working hard in these areas it is a uphill struggle

There are political problems with regard to access to schools too. The GAA clubs are very strong in the primary schools and even the IRFU have been involved for a long time. To add to the parish/local identity example cited by marinobohs, there's a parish priest on every school board in the country. I know Rovers have been putting in a big effort in Tallaght since long before the stadium was built and they're only starting to see results now.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

MB, referring to the sport as bogball kinda ruins anything else to follow - though I'll point to what you pointed out yourself - engaging the local community (and their reps). Also getting into schools, starting structures from the youngest age up and complementing what is existence (in terms of Junior and underage clubs). Simple, effective and outside the realm of possibility in LOI.

Longfordian, what's the situation in the club this year in terms of sponsorship and funding? I ask simply as I met one of your reps over here for the Irish match and he was talking about 2012 being a strong season for the club. I cannot for the life of me remember his name - he was/is 5'5"/5'6, heavy set, grey haired, moustache, hates the Monaghan boss and loves a jar. Probably doesn't narrow it down much.

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.....just as well I didn't mention "stick fighting" so :o.Seriously Spud, many clubs have schoolboy/under age set ups in place, Bohs and Shels have and shams annexed the (very successful) Tallaght Town set up. While some clubs have done work in schools etc oppurtunities are limited by time constraints etc. One area that could improve is the work done by FAI coaches - this should interact more with LOI clubs in the locality.

Again, many clubs have interacted with the community but given clubs sometimes change location and the fact that clubs tend to be more urban than Gah I am not sure this is as big an area of oppurtunity as people think. In gah all players are from the area/parish so a sense of (team/club) identity is ingrained,this isnot the case in LOI.

I found it almost the opposite Charlie when I was CPO. Bar a few country schools with a strict gaa influence and one secondary school (unfortunately the best Target audience for us as it was an all boys school with over 500 students) schools were delighted to let me in. Some even complained that the gaa were always annoying them about something and charging for coaching while i was doing it for free. If it had been possible to continue the programs I have no doubt that it would really have paid off in long term.

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Originally Posted by Longfordian

, and probably vice versa when they were winning things though I'm too young to remember that...

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Excellent.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

Longfordian, what's the situation in the club this year in terms of sponsorship and funding? I ask simply as I met one of your reps over here for the Irish match and he was talking about 2012 being a strong season for the club. I cannot for the life of me remember his name - he was/is 5'5"/5'6, heavy set, grey haired, moustache, hates the Monaghan boss and loves a jar. Probably doesn't narrow it down much.

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Donald Keogh by the sounds of it! Our FAI delegate and club PRO. Yeah we should be fairly alright this year money wise, a couple of decent sponsors still on board which is a big help. The aim is to be contending at the top end.

All of this is off topic, but...

Talk of doing things like the GAA is pie in the sky without major reform of the FAI. That'd take the school boy and junior clubs turkeys to vote for christmas. It should be that school boys and junior clubs feed into LoI clubs, who then feed into the National Team and/or abroad. Too many school boy clubs want to skip even their own senior teams to go straight to sending kids across the water in the hope that every few years they get a former player capped to put a name on some plaque in their club house.

Just for information, Leinster are currently having problems getting access to schools players, as the schools cup is more important that player welfare and long term development. Secondly, the GAA aren't exactly guiding lights when it comes to player welfare either - look how many burn out in their mid to late 20's? Finally, it's an open secret about the "expense" amounts that GAA managers get, to such a degree that I've heard recent debates that it should be a fixed wage for the job. Amazing revenue will come after the LoI clubs over defacto wages being paid as expenses, but the GAA has never been touched. They'll go after pensioners, but the GAA is the last untouchable of Irish society.

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Originally Posted by Magicme

Some even complained that the gaa were always annoying them about something and charging for coaching while i was doing it for free.

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Jesus... don't talk to me about that sort of craic. GAA crowd in my home village have been trying to kill off the local soccer club for as long as I can remember, and before that no doubt. The same morons that swear at under 12s for playing soccer in their own time are the same people in the pub on a saturday shouting for Arsenal, United, Chelsea etc. You couldn't make it up. The FAI ran a coaching course of some sort on the local astro in recent years and the "helpers" they employed were all part of the local gah mafia, but €100 a day caused them a strange sort of 3-day long short-term memory loss.

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Originally Posted by Longfordian

Donald Keogh by the sounds of it! Our FAI delegate and club PRO. Yeah we should be fairly alright this year money wise, a couple of decent sponsors still on board which is a big help. The aim is to be contending at the top end.

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Ah sure you can always dream........reality is much better though:cool: