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Is this site for real ?
http://www.tonycascarino.com
It claims an Irishman under the alias of Tony Cascarino was fighting for the Croats in the 1990s !?!?
I always though he had an air of absence about him when he played for us :D
Might explain the disgraceful incidents that marked the end of the match in Turkey as a few Turks fought in the former Yugoslavia too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
You serious? Never heard of this guy before?? He was all over the European press last year in connection with the escape of General Gotovina. The Irish Independent reported the US government had offered a $5 million dollar reward having received info that the general was under cascarino's protection in Ireland.
see the media reports at: www.cascarino.homestead.com
Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
According to Sean MacBride who interviewed Cascarino for the Croatian Herald earlier this year:
"Possibly the first thing that struck me about Tony, was his uncanny physical resemblance to the uniformed photograph I'd seen of his late grandfather. His dark, almost Mediterranean complexion, was the classic found along west coast Ireland and he could quite easily pass for a Spaniard or an Italian."
http://213.191.154.38/default.aspx?clanak=2294&LID=1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
Honestly I hadnt heard of him at all, I only found the stuff when I was looking for info on foreign fighters in the wars in the former Yugoslavia... Over here in England there wasnt much coverage on the war recently and hardly any on foreign fighters... theres been a bit on the Pakistani/British people who "fought" for the Islamic Mujahideen in Bosnia.
Tan passport to me. Irish passport would have been in Irish and English. This is all a bit surreal though. Why Tony Cascarino, FFS? :confused: Millwall fan per chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by davros
"The international volunteer came in Croatia in October 1991, and our [Croatian] co-veterans named him Tony Cascarino after famous footballer and Irish fellow citizen."Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Globus (Zagreb, 26/9/2003)
.................................................. ..................................................
"Luka Misitec told the Irish News of the World: 'I have seen the reports but I do not know Ante Gotovina's current whereabouts. An Irishman was a member of General Gotovina's unit and a combatant.
'I have seen the reports about him being in Ireland. The information is based on an allegation about the former Irish soldier who joined the Croatian forces in 1991.'
"The mystery Irishman was given the nomme de guerre Tony Cascarino, after the famous Irish international soccer player Tony Cascarino had a high profile at the time and was popular in Croatia.
The President of the HSP 1861 party in Croatia, Dobroslav Paraga, said he was also aware of reports the general was in Ireland and he too confirmed a Croatian fighter had been Irish.
The ultra-nationalist, whose party is also known as the Croatian Party of Rights 1861, said: "Nothing would surprise me with this affair."
(Irish News of the World 18/01/2004)
http://www.cascarino.homestead.com/IRISHNOW.html
Shouldn't surprise anyone that these low lifes end up in Ireland. Didn't Otto Skorzeny and Oswald Moseley live there for a while?
WTF??? Is this some kind of 'all Croats are fascists' sweeping generalisation rubbish?Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Neither cascarino or the general are even right-wingers, never mind fascist.
Couldn't give a f*ck if he was a Trotskyist-Maoist - not that you'd put money on that if you've ever read anything about 20th century Croatian - as opposed to (pan-)Yugoslavian - nationalism. It's the bit about him being 'a war crimes suspect wanted for trial the The International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague' that intrigues. Still, I'm sure he's a decent family man who likes dogs and golf. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
Gottya! Say no more....your from the 'all Croats are fascists' school & people 'suspected' of crimes are automatically low-lifes.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
I've gotta hand it to ya - yer ignorance is plainly outstanding!
Do ya also think that all Irish catholics are IRA and all Blacks are muggers?
Yeah hes right, there were some fascists fighting for the Croats, but most of them were not Croatian, and there werent that many. There was a rather infamous Black Swedish man who was a fascist (I know it sounds a bit strange but it was true), I cant remember his name but a while back he got done in Sweden for executing 2 policemen in some bizzare ritual. There was also a Dutchman killed during captivity in/around Knin, who some say was fascist and some say wasnt, and a spanish journalist. A fair few volunteers fought for the Croats (to some it was like the Resistance to Franco in the Civil War for some) and most of them were not fascists. The Croat armed forces were at times brutal, but in most civil wars soldiers are... events tend to spiral out of control. Certainly every side in the former Yugoslavia at times broke the Geneva convention. What the Serbs did is fairly well documented, the Croats were no saints during Operation Storm in 1995, and the Bosnian Muslims, shelled their own people and imported Iranians and Arabs to de-capitate Serb and Croat civilians, but they were America's darlings of the war so not much attention is paid to their misdermenors, shades of Turkey-Armenia really.
Having been to both Serbia and Croatia, I have to say that every person I met in both countries was very pleasent, positive and charming.
If you're into this cfdh_edmundo I'd recommend you read his manuscript 'millennium memory' - very credible and realistic without the usual exaggerated Hollywood type gung-ho crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
He shatters many of the myths/propaganda surrounding the war's origins/dynamics etc; which some people (no names lopez) seem to have swallowed. Another good book is 'Anatomy of deceit' by Jerry Blaskovitch.
The biggest mistake in my opinion is to consider either all Croats as fascist; or all Serbs supportive of Milosevic and cronies. Out of the two sides IMHO the latter were the more fascist of the two. It wasn't a right/left war, or even a war for or against a 'pan-Yugoslavia' (that died with Tito and Milosevic's actions). It was a fight for post-communist survival and against Serb nationalist expansion.
Sticking to this General Ante Gotovina rather than your own sensitivities over Croatians, if he's such an innocent man, why flee Croatia? Strikes me that he's worried about prosecution in his own country - where I presume murdering 150 civilians for no reason is likely to get a long stretch - let alone in the Hague? BTW, as you're so keen to label me being from the 'all Croats are fascists' school of thought, where did I say this in post #8? I think you're making things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
Being both Irish and Catholic I've been accused of this a few times. Have you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
I think the sketch is Croatia wants to be in the EU. The EU has a huge number of conditions to be met if any country wants to get in, most of them are to do with Human Rights (which buggers Turkey's chance of getting in). Both Croatia and Serbia have to round up all their war crimes suspects and send them off to the Hague. Croats argue that the Hague's impartiallity means they'll try and nail some Croats (just because so many of the suspects in the Hague are Serbs) - to a certain extent they may have a point, but ive not really looked at what Govina's up for in the court.
I will say this tho, Croatia and Serbia are actually moving closer together since 1995. Its a little known fact but the Croats (and virtually every other country in the region) were against NATO's bombing of Serbia during the Kosovo thing. The fact that the Serbs were ejected from the Kraijina (in what was undoubtedly an ugly incident), actually removed the main Serb-Croat flashpoint. Clearly the fact that 150,000 civilians had to move out is highly regrettable (the whole war was regrettable) but without it there would be even more anger between the countries (im not saying that it made Operation Storm right tho). Some Serbs have moved back to Croatia, again part of the EU entry rules, and from what ive read they havent had any problems (at least compared to Serbs living in NATO-governed Kosovo).
The whole Hague tribunal is a complex issue. On the one hand there is a desire to punish those who commited mass crimes, but on the other hand you have to ask the question, does it further the peace ?? Agreements like Good Friday seem to suggest war courts arent as useful as they proport to be. I dont know what the best answer is, but IMO the ICC at the Hague isnt looking very good. Theyve charged Milosevic with so many charges the trial will never be finished, plus his demands to call Blair and Clinton to give evidence cant really be ignored if the court is to give him a fair trial - but then Blair and Clinton almost certainly wont go to the Hague. Theyve still not got Karadzic or Ladic either, who are probably the biggest war criminals in the region. And dont forget that the Bosnian Muslims wont be charged for the most part. They imported their war criminals (mainly mujahideen / Soviet-Afghan veterans), most of whom are now running amock in Chechnya, Nagorno-Karabach, southern Afghanistan etc or living a nice life of luxery courtesy of Saudi Arabia.
cfdh_edmundo: I haven't read much about 'Yugoslavia' since the nineties - when I was visiting the area three times in twelve months to watch Ireland and as part of my MA in Modern European Studies, a module of which I did was 'Post communist Eastern Europe.' Personally I found it all truly depressing.
Marcus Tanner's book on the country - Croatia: A Nation Forged in War - provides an interesting insight into Gotovina: It doesn't mention him once (well not in the index). The trouble is the whole war business was very complex, so much that few insiders let alone us outsiders can make head nor tale of it: Tudjman's and Slobodobachop's secret deal to split Bosnia; Croats living in Serb areas forced to kill Muslims in order to implicate them in; the use of 'rape'. One thing IMO is clear is that without 'outsiders' (from both within and outside Yugoslavia) maybe things would not have been so bad. Maybe I'm just an idealist.
I've no doubt that Gotovina's probably Croatia's lamb to be sacrificed (his death toll is probably an hour's work for Ratko Mladic) because even they recognise that their side was hardly whiter than white. Still, I doubt he's the innocent person some gnat-arsed minds think he is - no names Twelfth Apostle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Lol!!! Lopez are you just basing your arguments on Gotovina on newspaper reports and Marcus Tanner's book here? As you clearly know little on the facts.
You seem to be adept at making presumptions.
How do you know Gotovina's fled Croatia? Are you saying Carla Del Ponte and the actual Hague prosecuter's (i.e the people who wish to prosecute Gotovina) are liars?
You clearly don’t understand any of the key facts surrounding this case. Your contradictory waffle is also outstanding - you say on the one hand Gotovina’s “probably Croatia’s sacrificial lamb” and then state you “doubt his innocent” on the other.
You then state Marcus Tanner’s book doesn’t mention Gotovina. WTF has that got to do with anything? (Other than reconfirming to everyone how little you know on Gotovina.)
What has Otto Skorzeny or Oswald Moseley got to do with either the Croatian war of independence, general gotovina or Cascarino?
If these weren’t fascist inferences then why mention them in the first place?
On what basis do you form this opinion Lopez? On the fact that he's not mentioned in 'A nation forged in war?' Lol!!! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by lopez
Spot on. Some Croats unquestionably committed terrible crimes during the wars and some were even protected by Tudjman's government.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
My position is that anyone who commits a crime regardless of ethnicity should be prosecuted.
The Gotovina case is very different though than all the other indictments. Simply - Gotovina has not committed any crime and this is chiefly why he refuses to stand trial.
See:
http://www.cascarino.homestead.com/ante.html
I dispute that the Krajina Serb population was ejected during Operation Storm. They were in fact ordered to withdraw by their own leadership's president Milan Martic several hours into the operation.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
On what basis do you form your opinions? Through a website of someone who claims to be from one country - mentioning his grandfather's role in its fight for independence - who joins the army of the country that his grandfather fought against to gain independence before finally ending up as a soldier of fortune...sorry, some latter-day George Orwell in a third country? Or do you have first hand knowledge of the General - let me precise here, did you serve as a soldier with General Gotovina throughout the war - and therefore know his innocence? Perhaps your Mr Cascarino himself? Because all it sounds like to me is that you are just a one, maybe two book expert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
I know probably as much as anyone else on this thread. My interest once again is that a war criminal wanted by the Hague is suspected of living in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
Call it seeing too many innocent people being locked up but I tend to be sceptical of any attempt by the British justice system to bring high profile cases to trial. FFS I was even keen to give Ian Huntley the benefit of the doubt. However I'll be interested to hear of the International Court of wrongly convicting anyone from Yugoslavia. Perhaps you'll help here?
Contradictory waffle doesn't compare with such ludicrous statements as asking someone like me 'Do ya also think that all Irish catholics are IRA.' I'm still chuckling over that one. You're however right about my understanding the 'facts' as you call it. It's because I'm not really interested in the case. What has it got to do with me? The Hague court wants some bum for war crimes, he does a runner...sorry refuses to go, and you want me to believe he's innocent. LOL :D Whatever happened to an officer's honour? Sounds like he wants the perks of rank - power, prestige, the right to shoot whoever takes his fancy - but not willing to face up to the consequences. Innocent people don't run and don't commit suicide. It just makes them look guilty.The people interested are the relatives of Gotovina's alleged victims. My interest before you started an argument was the news that a 'suspected' war criminal is living in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
As for the sacrificial lamb bit, this is when someone low down gets sacrificed to protect those higher up. Sorry that you couldn't grasp my argument - even though you say the same in a post further down: 'Spot on. Some Croats unquestionably committed terrible crimes during the wars and some were even protected by Tudjman's government' - so I'll explain it a bit better for you. A similar case was the GAL state-sponsored assassinations in Spain where a number of lowly police and mercenaries were imprisoned before a determined judge was prepared to go after the big fish: in this case politicians. Although he managed to send to prison Spain's Minister of the Interior, there were claims that the order to kill ETA suspects went to the Prime Minister himself. My point is that Gotovina is probably guilty of his charges but that there are others further up above that are more culpable.
Tanner's book was first published in 1997. At the same time Tim Judah's book, The Serbs, had details about all the celebrities on the Serbian 'ethnic cleansing' circuit. Tanner mentioned Croatian war crimes but little on the people committing them. Why the delay?Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
Well if Ireland allowed Poll Pot to live in Ireland I would have mentioned him too. Speak to the Department of Justice if you are concerned about who they allow to stay in the country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
Very touching that you are all for war criminals being prosecuted. When in Belgrade in 1998 I and two friends met this bloke called Milan in a bar in the city centre. Milan was not the sort of bloke that you'd bring home to mum and we noticed after an hour that the bar resembled the outside of the GPO with numerous bullet holes in the wall. Milan was according to his business card a hairdresser but also in his words, a 'top Partizan hooligan'. Inevitably the conversation turned to darker subjects and to cut a long story short after talking about his own career in the war he lifted his shirt to show burn marks all over his body. These weren't cigarette marks but large burns made with an iron or a poker. So thank you my Croatian expert for telling me that some 'Croats unquestionably committed terrible crimes during the wars': I already knew that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twelfth Apostle
Lol!!! :)
Here’s a refresher…Lopez came into this thread and initially branded Gotovina a ‘lowlife’, suggesting he was akin to Otto Skorzeny and Oswald Moseley when Gotovina is neither rightwing nor fascist.
Lopez states Gotovina’s 'fled Croatia' and on that basis claims that Gotovina’s 'worried' about being prosecuted in Croatia; despite both the Hague prosecutors themselves stating that Gotovina has never left Croatia and all the Croatian polls showing the overwhelming majority support his actions.
Lopez then stated “the whole war business was very complex, so much that few insiders let alone us outsiders can make head nor tale of it” then proceeds to make some pretty firm opinions about "Croatian as opposed to pan-Yugoslavian nationalism" and a Croatian General who’s not mentioned at all in a book he claims to have read on Croatia…
Lopez claims Cascarino claims to be from a particular country on a website, and libels him as a ‘soldier of fortune’ whereas the facts are cascarino, who’s family is well known in Ireland, has not disclosed his nationality on any website; and is also well known as being totally opposed to mercenaries. Not even the Serbian side he fought against call him a mercenary. A public UN document which is on the web also states he was not a merecenary.
Lopez then livens things up with his classic contradictory waffle by libelling Gotovina branding him a ‘war criminal’ who ‘wants to shoot whoever takes his fancy,’ then in the next breath states “I know probably as much as anyone else on this thread” and then asserts “he’s probably guilty of his charges.”
Lopez as I previously stated…you don’t even know what the charges are. And each of your posts re-enforces your ignorance. Gotovina has not personally killed anybody, nor is there any suggestion that he has personally killed anybody. Neither is he charged with personally killing anybody. And he has most certainly never been convicted of killing anybody.
What has a dodgy Serb in a bar claiming to be a hairdresser, football hooligan and tortured by Croats got to do with gotovina?
Your providing real entertainment here Lopez!!! Lol!!!!
A lot of chatter…but no substance!
I'd suggest you discard your misguided preconceptions and personal prejudices, get the facts of the matter straight and learn something about the actual case being discussed; otherwise you may appear like a contradictory libelling imbecile and complete cretin.
:)