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Anyone else think that the Irish Republic's primary schools should all be non-denominational?
The US system of banning all talk of gods and religion has to be the way forward for our country.
The practice of state schools giving 1st preference to 'catholic' children has to be unlawful.
Some time could be given during the week for the local rabbi, druid, mullah or priest to come into the school and preach their thing. (The children of the atheists could then go and play football in the yard).
How would you get the schools off the church? Don't they own a lot of the buildings? Maybe the state should have taken school assts off the church in exchange for abuse victim payments?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilts
US system seems a bit strange given they appear to be one of the most fundamental religious socities in the West.
As we pay for the teachers salaries 100% the church could not run the schools without the state's help.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
The US is only religious in the bible belt - most of the big cities New York, LA etc are not very religious at all. But the no prayers rule or any mention of gods is strictly enforced in ALL state schools. If you want your children to be taught the teachings of your particular beliefs then you would send them to sunday school or something along those lines run by your fundamentalist friends.
Absolutely agree. Religious stuff has no place in state primary schools. Many parents end up letting their kids go through the BS surrounding communion etc because it's hard to explain to a young child that they're going to be excluded what is a core activity for the best part of a year.
If people care that much let them send their kids to Sunday School or some such, the state shouldn't be funding and encouraging this stuff.
Most schools are owned, built and paid for by the state. There may be issues over some land (but it was usually donated for schools anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
All state schools should be none or multi-demoninational. However, the more pressing issue with is primary schools being able to select on the basis of religion. Parents are forced to christain children, and in some cases be seen to be active in the church just to ensure their children get into their 100% state funded local primary school.
The parish priest shouldn't be an automatic chair of the board of management either, as they are then in a position to influence hiring and firing of teachers based on religious beliefs rather than the standard of teacher.
http://www.secularism.org.uk/ireland...cularscho.html
Not the most unbiased of sources, admittedly.Quote:
Ireland should open more multi-faith or secular schools to reflect the country’s growing diversity due to recent immigration, a European Commission anti-racism body said on Thursday. Fully 98 percent of Irish primary schools are still run by the Catholic Church and pupils who do not take part in religious rites "feel singled out", it wrote in a report on Ireland.
Whatever about bias, it's there or thereabouts on the number of primary schools controlled by the church.
what is this, kick christianity month? sorry, remind me again what the nominal religious breakdown of ireland is?
and your source for this is...Quote:
Parents are forced to christain children, and in some cases be seen to be active in the church just to ensure their children get into their 100% state funded local primary school
yes, because the USA's social model is really something we should be trying to emulate. and since when did being a practising Christian result in you being labelled a fundamentalist? i could similarily describe all the self-anointed atheists on here as immoral, hell bound blasphemers and heretics. but i dont, because i dont care enough about them.Quote:
The US is only religious in the bible belt - most of the big cities New York, LA etc are not very religious at all. But the no prayers rule or any mention of gods is strictly enforced in ALL state schools. If you want your children to be taught the teachings of your particular beliefs then you would send them to sunday school or something along those lines run by your fundamentalist friends
you devise an alternative moral code then that people will actually adhere to, and put it to the country. would be interesting to see the results of such a vote.Quote:
Anyone else think that the Irish Republic's primary schools should all be non-denominational?
The US system of banning all talk of gods and religion has to be the way forward for our country.
Shantkelly
What are you afraid of? You can still bring your children up according to your beliefs (just outside school). What I am suggesting is that the state should not have anything to do with religious education. This is the case in the US. You went on about moral codes - well I think it's immoral to brainwash any children with religious ideas.
Should the state be responsible for religious education? In my opinion - No.
Why do you think that the status quo is better?
Do you feel that we should drum catholicism into everybody as was the case in the recent past? Do you feel that catholicism has a special place in state affairs? How should non-catholics be treated in your system?
i was educated in a ccms primary school and a catholic-ethos secondary school. the education i received prepared me for a number of challenges in life, physically, mentally and spiritually. a core element of that catholic education was the examination of other belief systems, both christian and non-christian. i feel that i am better for this, especially in the society in which i live. i encountered many people at university who received state educations (NI-style) with little or no religious or moral instruction. as such, these people that i encountered, i found, were more prone to sectarianism and other such hallmarks of the sub-educated, some of which was directed at me. comparably, some of the soundest fellas i meet at uni were educated either by christian brothers, or priests or attended the protestant equivalent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shilts
i, nor any of my siblings, have ever had catholicism drummed into us, nor did my parents. my paternal grandmother was an honest-to-engels communist, and yet my father is a practising catholic. at 26 years of age, i feel more than equipped to make up my own mind with regard to my life, especially in regard to my spirituality. i dont feel that simply erasing all public reference to religion, be it in school, in work, or elsewhere is an entirely good idea. if thats the route that people want to pursue, then dont take easter holidays, dont take christmas holidays, and dont take st patricks day off. all christian events, the understanding of which is first instilled in school. to do so whilst simultaneously removing all religious instruction is nothing short of hyprocrisy.
as for the place of christianity in state affairs? i would like to see more of our political, social and economic leaders applying a bit more of christ's teachings to their everyday actions. the basis of our morality comes from the teachings of christ. you name a comparable moral and ethics code that encompasses all of it, and ill consider it.
as for 'my' system's treatment of non-catholics? pretty much the same as the treatment meted out to catholics. any different would be wrong. i dont think that the current system is brilliant, and it could probably, like most systems, be improved. but to scarp religious instruction altogether is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
this mb seems to be getting quite good at the catholic/christian bashing. good to see so much rational, reasoned debate going about the pro's and cons of religious education. religion bad, atheism good!
Edit: as for religious instruction being brainwashing? by that veiwpoint, you could argue that all religious, political and philosphical instruction is just brainwashing. i mean, it all basically boils down to systems of belief, doesnt it?
A fair post Shantykelly, I have a few questions about the section below.Should schools spend as much time preparing a non-Catholic student for their respective cermeonies as they do with Catholic students?Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
Should the school board comprise members of other religions, just like the Catholic priest often has a place on the board?
What absolute nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
It's often said that Christ's values hold true regardless of whether we accept him as the son of god, but that's nonsense. CS Lewis, who is nowadays the poster boy of Christian apology, rightly admitted that christ presents us with two scenarios and no middle ground in between. Those of us who don't accept his divinity simply cannot find morality in the idea of a regular man forgiving crimes committed by others against others: this is positively unjust and immoral. So if the man was not divine, he was downright wicked.
To a non-religious person then, Christ's teachings are bunkum. And I've never had so much as a speeding ticket to my name; so where does that leave me morally?
Our morality and ethics are cultural and culturally relevant. They are not the exclusive domain of any section of society and not derived from religious dogma.
And since when are kids told which political ideologies they should favour in Irish primary schools?Quote:
Edit: as for religious instruction being brainwashing? by that veiwpoint, you could argue that all religious, political and philosphical instruction is just brainwashing. i mean, it all basically boils down to systems of belief, doesnt it?
Whatever about the teachings of Christ, the Catholic church isn't in a position to lecture anyone about morals and ethics.
Aye. Bosom buddies with the German Nazis in the '30s and all. Where was the church's "morals" then?Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
No, it doesn't. The moral zeitgeist is completely unrelated to the bible. It is not acceptable to be racist these days. It was accepted 50 years ago. The bible was the same then as it is now.Quote:
the basis of our morality comes from the teachings of christ.
Back on topic, yes I agree that schools should not be run by religions. I do not believe in teaching children untruths, and this is what religion is.
If you mean helping Nazis to escape after the war, that was in the 40s. And it was more than half a century ago. I'm talking about modern issues, like protecting child molestors, and sitting on billions* of euros worth of "relics" in Vatican City while reaching their paws out to their supporters for more, many of whom can hardly afford to feed themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw82
adam
* Trillions?
I think the government is in no position to lecture anyone about morals and ethics.
I don't think Mary Harney's in any position to lecture anyone on healthy eating. I'd still rather that the state ran public information programs in that than, say, McDonalds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
How about we let the parents decide?Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
I can continue listing the failings of the state if you like, I'm pretty sure I can trump anything McDonalds did.
How about giving them a viable choice? I live in a city of 90,000 that has just one educate together school and one non-RC (CoI ...but effectively secular) secondary school.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
...hmmm, I'm not fond of the institutions of this state or of MacDonalds. But I'm sure enough both of them would pass on the opportunity to tell little girls that's it's a more noble and saintly option to chuck themselves on a pitchfork or opt for alternate suicide by proxy than it is for them to submit to durty, durty tings like sexual assault. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_GorettiQuote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
I'd also reckon I'd get a more balanced version of events from either of the former when describing the activities of tax-dodging kidnapper and soon to be saint "Mother" Teresa -or her long since turned to dust colleague, snake-oil salesman (AND champion karaoke singer ...Everly Brothers every time) and two-bit conman Padre Pio.
:D I remember it well from our RE classes. Now kids here's a brief synopsis of why all other faiths are wrong, wrong, wrong. Indian people worship 8-legged elephants ...seriously... aren't they mad or what?Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
...maybe they harbour deep-rooted, sectarian, predjudices against retentive, conceited people.:oQuote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
Easter and Christmas are ancient holiday times predating christianity. The christian element is entirely tacked on. Patricks day is a state holiday ...though I think we should get rid of it and throw our lot in with the nordies ...make July 12th the national holiday. Nicer weather around then.Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
I've no interest in removing "all public reference to religion, be it in school, in work, or elsewhere " by the way. I'd like it out of the ethos, enrollment and employment policies of schools though.
...True and an absolute scandal in this day and age.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I happen to know a couple of teachers who live in very real terror, again in this day and age at the end of the first decade of the 21st century, that the religious cohort in the school board that employ them will discover they are cohabiting. One gets their post sent to a parents address. It's a situation replicated right across the state apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Lional Richie said most of what I wanted to say but just a couple of points. Funnily enough I was just reminded about this yesterday when I was pleasantly surprised to see these posters on the DART- http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...44010471_1.jpg
So if Jesus hadn’t come along we’d all be killing one another? We wouldn’t have any respect for one another? You don’t think humankind would have/already had come to the conclusion that maybe things would function rather better if they didn’t go around killing one another for the most part? I’m an atheist but I seem to get along fine. Of course, if the only reason you’re not going around committing crimes is because you’re afraid you’re not going to get into heaven that’s a different story. Not to mention how it devalues life as some sort of rehearsal for what comes after. But what a horrible idea- that we wouldn’t have a moral compass unless it was for a heavenly reward or fear of hell!Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
I'm just totally fed up, as I suspect others are also, with 'understanding' the beliefs of the faithful. I'm fed up with tip-toeing around religious attitudes. If you want to believe in virgin births, raising from the dead, heaven and hell, saints and miracles, an infallible pope in Rome, and the teachings of a 2000 year old collection of mis-informed, superstitious, contradictory, sexist, homophobic, violent writing, then by all means believe in them. Go for it, whatever you need to believe in. But don't expect me not to laugh at them and ridicule them and think worse of you for believing in them. It's nonsense and it's unfair for you to say people on this forum who disagree wth you are simply following a 'religion bad, atheism good' argument- there are not two separate, but equally valid choices between atheism and Christianity so don't pretend they're on an equal footing.Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
Again, not all beliefs are equally valid. Some are more so than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly