Stephen Kenny

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Originally Posted by Diggs246

My view is a that if they sacked him today his compensation would be very small if not actually nothing.
Thats usually how it would work i guess

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I doubt he (or any other manager tbf) would have signed a contract that could have seen him sacked with little compensation after 6 games - sure what's the point of singing a contract at all in that case. I think its good to sit down an review things periodically but its not a contractual issue. Kenny is here to stay and while there are plenty of valid concerns I think he deserves the Euro Qualifiers which are obviously make or break for him now.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Why not push collins into the holding role last night, bring duffy on take off molumby. Something a bit different and a bit innovative. To me it made sense given how far up the pitch collins was playing anyway. Whats he doing up there? he did the same against scotland. Feels like hes an attacking midfielder trapped inside a Centre backs body.

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So playing Collins out of position, a position he has never played before?, in a game we could not lose, is innovative?

We have a history of pushing CBs forward under Kenny when in possession of the ball, see Duffy against Qatar as the clearest example of this. That's the advantage of playing 3 CBs.

We were 2-0 up at home. Taking molumby off was a defensive measure. Having another CB on the pitch was not a bad idea, given collins spent most of his time in midfield in the second half it was a sensible thing to try out along with as you and others have said we were in control of the game - if not now then when?

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Originally Posted by Eirambler

The long range strikes issue comes down to Kenny's single biggest failing of his time in charge - his regular failure to adequately resource his midfield, especially against lower seeded teams.

It had been better recently, because Cullen and Molumby have plugged that hole well and we have had Knight in front of them as well. But as soon as one or both of them become unavailable Kenny goes back to the same mistakes of the previously tried and failed - Hourihane, Hendrick and Browne. Hourihane is so bad that having him in a deep midfield position is as bad as having nobody there, Hendrick drifts out of position constantly and tries to play a passing game that he's not consistently good enough at, Browne can pop up with a goal now and then but he's a liability further back as we have seen.

Kenny has had two years to resource this area and hasn't. He could have brought Coventry in - he's not brilliant but he'd sit in position and fill the hole. So would James McCarthy to be honest and he'd probably appreciate the minutes on the pitch if he's anyways fit. If he was back there last night instead of Hourihane that mess wouldn't have happened. Others have mentioned Taylor and Sykes who haven't been given a chance.

We're not talking about these players as first team regulars - just lads that can fill a hole when needed like last night, a country with a playing pool our size needs those players as well - exactly so we don't end up with Hourihane on the pitch again.

For whatever reason Kenny can't see this. I think it's because he just doesn't have it. He does lots of things well off the field but he doesn't read the game well at all - and doesn't seem to have any in-game management ability. That's why we won't be qualifying for Germany if he is allowed to continue.

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for the love of god. coventry had a poor loan then dropped to l1, hardly a guy banging down kennys door. anyway as 21s captain it would have been mad to call him up mid campaign. sykes has been playing rwb all season. the reaction to mccarthy getting called up would have been worth it tbh. a guy who has no real interest in playing for us anymore and who has no real place in celtics 11.
the whole truth is that we are short of any real options in midfield.
we have 1 good no6 (cullen) a half decent combative midfielder in molumby and not much else. we desperately lack a box to box 8 with a bit of technique. hourihane is finished, hendrick is better more advanced as he doesnt have the legs and knight just seems to run around.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

I doubt he (or any other manager tbf) would have signed a contract that could have seen him sacked with little compensation after 6 games - sure what's the point of singing a contract at all in that case.

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"We're offering you a new contract, but we want to put a break clause in it after the Nations League to see how that goes. We're not entirely happy with results and think it would be a good option for the Association."

"I want a contract with no break clause."

"We're not offering that."

"OK - but I'm not signing one with a break clause."

"Fine - no contract offer so. Good luck!"

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

We were 2-0 up at home. Taking molumby off was a defensive measure. Having another CB on the pitch was not a bad idea, given collins spent most of his time in midfield in the second half it was a sensible thing to try out along with as you and others have said we were in control of the game - if not now then when?

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He had to take Molumby off - that decision was forced on him. He made a like for like change - why change the whole game plan when we were coasting to victory and under no apparent threat? To be innovative?

Whither the as yet unappointed new assistant? If Kenny goes after a bad Euros start, where would that leave the new assistant? Dumped after two competitive games? The new manager would surely bring or recommend his own man.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

"We're offering you a new contract, but we want to put a break clause in it after the Nations League to see how that goes. We're not entirely happy with results and think it would be a good option for the Association."

"I want a contract with no break clause."

"We're not offering that."

"OK - but I'm not signing one with a break clause."

"Fine - no contract offer so. Good luck!"

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Reads like "We'll offer you a new deal but we want the option to sack you after 6 games"

There isn't a manger in the world that would sign that.

"A break clause" - ffs

That's exactly what it sounds like. Because the first two campaigns were fairly poor stuff.

If that's what he was offered, what's Kenny's alternative? Walk? Take a huge paycut and go back to Dundalk?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's exactly what it sounds like. Because the first two campaigns were fairly poor stuff.

If that's what he was offered, what's Kenny's alternative? Walk?

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He obviously wasn't offered that though.

If there is a review and he is sacked it will be with full compensation. If that's the route they want to go down then fine, but lets not dress it up as some sort of clause that will see him get the sack with little or no compensation. Neither of the articles linked go into any detail about his contract. Everything else is pure speculation.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

He obviously wasn't offered that though.

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Why not?

What's "full compensation"? Is it a nominal figure agreed in the contract? (Which may be a lot less than paying off the balance of it)

Why would you need a clause to sack someone with full compensation when you can do that anyway?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Why not?

What's "full compensation"? Is it a nominal figure agreed in the contract? (Which may be a lot less than paying off the balance of it)

Why would you need a clause to sack someone with full compensation when you can do that anyway?

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I'm lost now - I very much doubt there is any clause in Kenny's contract - I'm not arguing that there is one. There is a standard review at the end of the NL but I'm speculating that it does not have any contractual implications.

He has a set amount of time and the FAI will have to compensate him to the full amount of his current contract if at any stage they wish to dispense with his services. If they wanted to review contractually after the NL - he should have been offered a different type of contract e.g. 8 months with an option for a further 12 months (I'm not sure when his last contract expired)

The idea that he signed a contract but can be sacked during the timeframe of that contract without penalty doesn't make any sense to me.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But the others - McGrath isn't good enough and isn't the same player as Hourihane anyway (as Jd has said). Coventry was recalled from his Championship loan last year and dropped a division; I think it's too early for him. Sykes - again, League One. Smallbone - has only played a handful of games.

Again, I know you're just suggesting alternatives, but they're not massively appealing to be honest.

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Agree with the main gist of your post. Two or three, depending on the system, of Cullen, Molumby, Knight and Hendrick should make up our starting midfield. My point is that Kenny needs to add depth. Sykes is playing regularly in the Championship for Bristol City this season, albeit out of position. Smallbone's made 10 appearances for Stoke, including 7 starts.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

take smallbone from the 21s? mcgrath is playing at midtable spl side just a grade up from loi, regardless hes not an 8 so no thank you. coventry again is a key 21 player. hourihane is poor and last night should spell the end but kenny didnt have a whole pile in reserve. remains to be seen what a few of the 21s can do, i assume they get a chance in november. i wouldnt hold out much hope that they'll move the needle for us

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I wouldn't have any qualms about promoting under-21 players, that's the whole point of underage teams. Crawford has plenty of depth, as evidenced by the players he can afford to leave out. Coventry and Smallbone are both 22 - 23 before the end of the season. If they aren't ready for senior football now they'll never be. Wales recently called up a 17-year-old with one senior appearance behind him.

The alternatives I've mentioned aren't like-for-like replacements for Hourihane, but who is?

He's not an 8 either. Neither is he a 6 or a 10. I'm not quite sure what he is other than a luxury player, who'll occasionally ping a shot at goal from the edge of the box or whip in a decent cross, but does precious little else for the remainder of the 90 minutes, often going completely missing for long periods of the game.

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Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Agree with some of that. Two or three, depending on the system, of Cullen, Molumby, Knight and Hendrick should make up our starting midfield. My point is that Kenny needs to add depth. Sykes is playing regularly in the Championship for Bristol City this season albeit out of position. Smallbone's made 10 appearances for Stoke, including 7 starts.



I wouldn't have any qualms about promoting under-21 players, that's the whole point of underage teams. Crawford has plenty of depth, as evidenced by the players he can afford to leave out. Coventry and Smallbone are both 22 - 23 before the end of the season. If they aren't ready for senior football now they'll never be. Wales recently called up a 17-year-old with one senior appearance behind him.

The alternatives I've mentioned aren't like-for-like replacements for Hourihane, but who is?

He's not an 8 either. Neither is he a 6 or a 10. I'm not quite sure what he is other than a luxury player, who'll occasionally ping a shot at goal from the edge of the box or whip in a decent cross, but does precious little else for the remainder of the 90 minutes, often going completely missing for long periods of the game.

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kenny would have been slated for calling these lads up mid campaign. he got grief from some quarters for taking bazunu and the likes up with him 2 years ago. imagine the uproar if he took the u21s midfield from them with qualifying on the line? he was in a no win situation in this window in this regard IMO. time for some change next time out though.

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Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

The idea that he signed a contract but can be sacked during the timeframe of that contract without penalty doesn't make any sense to me.

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Why not though?

If he was offered a contract that said "Two years, but we'll review after the Nations League and we can terminate it at a cost of €x", what were his alternatives?

I don't know what's there either, but reading the articles Eirambler linked in post 1902, there's something there, it seems there's to be a review at the end of the year, and its inclusion caused a delay in Kenny signing the new deal.

I don't see why there a clause that says "We can terminate at any stage and pay up the contract in full" would cause Kenny to delay signing. I do see why a clause that says "We will review performance at the end of 2022 and reserve the right to terminate the contract by means of two months' salary" (or something like that) would cause him to delay.

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

kenny would have been slated for calling these lads up mid campaign. he got grief from some quarters for taking bazunu and the likes up with him 2 years ago. imagine the uproar if he took the u21s midfield from them with qualifying on the line? he was in a no win situation in this window in this regard IMO. time for some change next time out though.

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So what? Who cares if he would have got slated? The senior team comes first. He isn?t there to protect U-21 players from getting senior call ups so that the 21s can be successful. I honestly can?t believe some of the absolute nonsense people are coming out with to excuse Kenny.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

I agree with the point about substitutions. Weird and illogical decisions have been feature of his reign. It's difficult not to think that he's prone to overthinking things under the pressure of a game as it's happening.

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Molumby was another tackle away from a red. Replacing him with Hourihane in a comfortable enough game didn't seem too ilogical at the time.I have always thought Hourihane was powder puff in green but even I couldn't have envisaged how we just went to pot after he came on. I don't think it was weird or illogical, though with hindsight it was a calamity. Even Hourihane's volleyed miss was dreadful.

As much as you can be critical of Kenny?s subs and in game tactical ability (and there are certainly questions to be answered there to say the least) I don?t think midfield issues are his fault. We have a midfield trio of Cullen, Knight and Molumbuy, one very good Championship player, one average Championship player and one very good League 1 player.

The fact is that we have nothing at all after that now. Hendrick in flashes, Browne meh, Sykes maybe. Taylor I don?t know enough about. Coventry probably isn?t ready, likewise Smallbone. McGrath isn?t good enough, Jack Byrne isn?t even standing out in LOI now - someone even mentioned James McCarthy there, which is mind boggling as his career is sadly all but over.

The Collins to sitting midfield role when we are missing players or defending a lead is an experiment that could be worth having but it could go either way, we could take out best player out of position and pay the price for it.

We are exceptionally light in there and there is not much anyone can do about it.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Molumby was another tackle away from a red. Replacing him with Hourihane in acomfortable enough game didn't seem too ilogical at the time.I have always thought Hourihane was powdere puff in green but even I couldn't have envisaged how we just went to pot after he came on. I don't think it wsa weird or illogical, though with hindsight it was a calamity. Even Hourihane's volleyed miss was dreadful.

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I think its illogical to have him in the squad though? He has shown for years that he is a poor player.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Molumby was another tackle away from a red. Replacing him with Hourihane in a comfortable enough game didn't seem too ilogical at the time.I have always thought Hourihane was powder puff in green but even I couldn't have envisaged how we just went to pot after he came on. I don't think it was weird or illogical, though with hindsight it was a calamity. Even Hourihane's volleyed miss was dreadful.

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Would agree with this too, I don?t slate Kenny for this sub last night it was all a bit of a formality. There can be no one that can genuinely say they sat there and thought oh no this is going to cost us the game. If anything I thought it might be a game where Hourihane could ping the ball about and look half decent maybe even get a few shots off from that 20-30 yard range something I felt we didn?t have someone to do in the first half (possibly Brady but not much oppportunity from LWB for that).

As it transpires there are no games in a green shirt left in which Hourihane can look good.

The sub at the time however, was or seemed fine.