Would he not be ineligible like Johansson anyway? Unless he has an Irish passport before playing for England? Rory was born in England, so he's eligible via his grandparents place of birth.
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Would he not be ineligible like Johansson anyway? Unless he has an Irish passport before playing for England? Rory was born in England, so he's eligible via his grandparents place of birth.
He's yet to play in a competitive game for England - but if he did so prior to sorting a passport, he would then be ineligible. Both himself and Louie Barry, who are England's two best players at that age group would be in that category, Barry having played U16 for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColourfulPeanut
Hopefully Mark O'Toole has been in touch with both their families and they're aware the need for a passport before September or whenever... Like in the case of Ciaran Clark, Callum Robinson, Ryan Johansson, Dan Crowley - things change between the age of 16 and 22 and you might find yourself regretting that you closed an avenue...
Does that still apply if he was born after Rory got his passport? Wouldn't he be an automatic Irish citizen, as the child of an Irish citizen?
Your children are only automatically Irish citizens if you were born in Ireland. If you are an Irish citizen but were born outside Ireland then you must apply for Irish citizenship for the child.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Kayode interviewed by the 42 and is very keen on getting into our 21s.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Leaving ego at the door has aided the progress of young Irish striker JJ Kayode https://the42.ie/5139464
Harvey Neville signs first professional contract with Manchester United: https://www.instagram.com/p/CCTv71bJcXl/
I doubt he'll play for Ireland though
Derry born U16 cap Lee Harkin signed a contract with Wolves: https://www.wolves.co.uk/news/academ...tracts-signed/
Hasn't played for Ireland in two years, but also hasn't been selected in the Northern Ireland underage squads
Randomly bumped into NK today. He had good things to say about this kidQuote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Rory Delap's parents are both from Ireland so the young lad would automatically qualify no?Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
No rory or his wife needed tobe born in IrelandQuote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
A mate and I were discussing Rice there and I mentioned how proud his father was of Declan playing for Ireland. I can't believe I didn't see these quotes last year from his aul lad: http://www.sport.net/declan-rices-da...ireland_865878
I don't mean to wake the dead but there was a discussion on this in another thread and how a perfect storm swept Rice from us. The father saying that he never thought in a 100 years his son would play for England really supports that theory.
Just goes to show how difficult this can be.
Or either of their parents, which Rory's were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Liam Delap’s situation is identical to that of Johansson and Crowley, in that their parents were not born in Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Under the current FIFA interpretation, in this instance, they are entitled to citizenship from birth but they are not citizens by default. To be citizens, they need to be registered on the foreign births register (at the very least, and possibly, acquire a passport at most).
If they play a competitive underage game before going through that process, then FIFA deems them to be ineligible.
It’s a ridiculous situation. I’d be critical of the law itself. I think personally that ‘Ms Johansson’ as an irish citizen should have just as much rights as I would regarding my future children. She grew up in Ireland, she happened to be born somewhere else.
I’d also be critical of FIFA’s interpretation. It’s a bureaucratic process that makes him ineligible. The rule was a response to country’s like Qatar giving passports to young Brazilian U20s who had no connection to the country and were financially induced to make the change...
As far as I’m aware, we are fairly unique in our laws
Sorry, I misread you in the first instance. Yeah, this is down to a deficiency in Ireland's nationality law rather than FIFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Not quite.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
The Qatari/Brazilian change you refer to was FIFA clamping down on people surreptitiously acquiring bogus nationalities, for purely financial reasons (player) or team-building ones (Association).
Whereas no-one, including FIFA, is denying that the likes of Johansson is perfectly entitled (in his case) to Irish nationality, as well as Luxembourgish and Swedish nationality.
Rather I reckon the rule which RJ fell foul off to have been FIFA's response to the separate change in their rules whereby you were no longer tied to a particular country by eg having represented them in a competitive under-age international; or in a senior friendly; or after your 21st birthday etc, it is now only a full, senior competitive cap which ties you.
And since there are now thousands of footballers all over the world who have dual, even multiple nationalities, and who are switiching far more frequently, FIFA requires them to have demonstrated some sort of "affinity" to their new choice of country. Otherwise you'd have players touting themselves around to the best offer, or opting for "sloppy seconds" after their "real" country decided they didn't want/need them.
So this "Passport first, Representation second" rule is merely an attempt by FIFA to reinforce what remains of the idea of that you represent someone for genuinely patriotic reasons, rather than mercenary or expedient ones.
P.S. Re your opening sentence above, it is not an "interpretation", since the words are perfectly clear and unambiguous, reflecting as they do the outcome which FIFA desires to achieve ("Patriotic", not "Mercenary" or "Expedient")
But how many players did we have over the years whose parents were born in England but grandparents were Irish?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Loads. They applied and got their Irish passports. But they had to apply it is isnt an automatic right. But if u have one parent born here you are entitled under law to citizenshipQuote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
So what's the problem? Has he not applied?Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
The rule hasn't changed since Callum Robinson or Ciaran Clark changed allegiance, merely the interpretation of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Both Crowley and Johansson were capped at 15 in a competitive underage encounter, rendering them unable to change because they weren't Irish citizens at that point (despite being entitled to said citizenship).Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I wouldn't expect a 15 year old of mixed background to necessarily have fixed ideas when it comes to patriotism - and if that was the spirit of the law, I don't think the law was intended to stop players like Crowley or Johansson from changing to Ireland...
Delap? He has played for England underage so if he hasn't already claimed his Irish citizenship he's ineligible for us now. Possible that he had already claimed it given who his dad is but then again he might not have bothered, given that he is with England at the moment it might not have been a priority for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fixer82
Guys, am I right in saying that Callum Robinson didn't qualify for us so? Unless he claimed his Irish citizenship as a teen before his England underage appearances.
You are correct, under the current FIFA interpretation Robinson almost certainly doesn't qualify for us. No going back on that one now though.
We really should be challenging the wording of the rule though. Too late now for Johansson, but not for Crowley and who knows who else might be caught by it in future.
Yep and this is were it gets confusing. Ciaran Clark who was also an underage England player , is legal even without the Irish passport at the time of playing for England, because his mum was born in IrelandQuote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Ted...... I’m going mad!!
You might be right, but I personally think it is a matter of Application, not Interpretation.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
That is, FIFA won't have been aware that a 2nd generation Irish player's nationality isn't effected until he/she is entered on the Register of Foreign Births, and so won't have acted in previous cases, until the Luxembourg FA brought this to their attention in the case of RJ.
At which point, FIFA had no option but to declare RJ ineligible, since the wording is unambiguous.
As I suggest above, perhaps they slipped through the net?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Or possibly the games they played didn't disqualify them, since it is only competitive U-17 and U-19 games which count towards eligibility, not eg schoolboy, U-16 or U-18? (I don't know their cap details)
No, but FIFA weren't just considering 15 y.o.'s, this applies to players of all ages, from every continent, but esp players born in Western European countries, who were now much freer to play for the former colonies from which their ancestry derived.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
I have a feeling one of the first players to take advantage of the new rules (possibly even a test case?) was Freddie Kanoute. He played for his country of birth, France, up to U-21 level, but was ignored for the senior team for the next 5 years.
He eventually was allowed to switch to Mali, his father's country of birth, making his debut when he was 26 or 27.
Callum O'Hare released by Villa and has signed with Coventry permanently following his loan there. He'll be a championship player next season at 22. I know he was mentioned on here beforem did a quick search and couldn't find much, is he definitely eligible?
Looks like O'Hare has played underage for England. If he qualifies through the granny rule he may well no longer be eligible, similar to Crowley.
Was the underage game competitive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
If so he is gone unless he had an Irish passport at the time
Think he would be fine as his only cap was for England u20s in what is essentially a friendly tournament. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017...0_Elite_LeagueQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
The only u20 tournament that is binding for EU Nations is the FIFA U20 World Cup.
isn't the issue that at the time he played for England he must also have had Irish nationality? That nationality is conferred by birthright if born to an Irish parent born in Ireland, but not if born to an Irish parent born outside of Ireland, and hence needs to achieve nationality via Irish grandparents? So it matters whether it's his parents or grandparents, or where his parents were born.
I was born in UK, to Irish-born Irish citizens. I have only ever held an Irish passport. Yet my UK-born kids needed to be "Foreign Birth Register"ed to get their Irish passports, and to get them on the FBR I needed my parents' birth certs & marriage certs. Horrible process.
I got my kids on the FBR about a month after Brexit! And with the FBR certification I applied for their passports which arrived within about 2 weeks.
If one of them had played for England at any age level before they were on the FBR they'd no longer be Irish eligible. In think we may have capped players who technically didn't qualify because of not being FBRed, but nobody noticed until the Ryan Johansson case.
Is that right? I haven't been paying full attention.
Assuming mother wasn't born in Ireland then yes you'd be correct. It's a ridiculous application of the law that was never intended and we need to change it. Either on our end or FIFA's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
it's a bizzare sight to see you EG spout on about FIFA eligibility matters :) Stick around and you might brush off the rusty bits.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
There was never any issue about Fredddy K transferring from France to Mali after 2003. The rules were changed late 2003 allowing a player to switch national teams (a one time switch) as long as he/she had not a played senior competitive game. Freddy was totally eligible to switch fron France to Mali
Once the rules were changed in 2003, most African nations with eligible players in Europe came calling for them
The Africa Nations Cup was held at Jan & Feb 2004. eg. Algeria and Guinea both called up 13 players each from France and Belgium, on and so forth.
Quinton Fortune (Man U) declined a call up to SA.
On another point
FIFA are quite aware of their own eligibility rules and require full paperwork to be lodged to support an application of a player who wishes to switch countries.Quote:
FIFA won't have been aware that a 2nd generation Irish player's nationality isn't effected until he/she is entered on the Register of Foreign Births, and so won't have acted in previous cases, until the Luxembourg FA brought this to their attention in the case of RJ.
Is there any country on the planet that offers automatic citizenship to the offspring of a single grandparent?
One such document required by FIFA is an official letter from the FA of the country he/she is switching from, outlining in detail all games played for that country.
Then they have the passport of the player and documentation as to when that player acquired the nationality of the country he/she want to switch to. It is a simple matter for FIFA to compare dates to check whether the player had the nationality of that country before playing competitivly for the first country .
Assuming Callum had not his irish nationality before playing for England, either FIFA fckd up when it came to Callum's application (unlikely imo), or the FAI did not present full disclosure in regards to that document from the English FA, or it was the powerful hidden hand of John Delaney exercising balance in magical and wonderous ways.
So how does one prove past citizenship? A valid from on a passport covering the time he or she represented another country?
It would be based on the date of entry on the Irish Foreign Birth Register. That's the date that an individual who qualifies through a grandparent becomes an Irish citizen. That date would need to pre date the first competitive appearance for another country.
Once added to the register the individual is sent a certificate confirming the date of citizenship which they would use to prove their eligibility.
I suppose just a copy of the irish passport alone would also suffice FIFA's purposes, if the date of issue predated the competitive appearance for the first country.
I just read that John Aldridge qualified to play for Ireland through a great grandparent?
How was he allowed play for us?
nope, grandparent from Athlone
https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/...athlone-roots/
Someone needs to change his wiki pageQuote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Actually Wikipedia is right for once, it was through a great grandparent that he qualified. His great grandmother was born in Athlone but moved to England at a young age.
At the time he was considered to be eligible under the great-grandparent rule, which was changed by FIFA in 1986, the year of his Ireland debut, to what we now know as the granny rule.
So he just got in in time. If he had declared for Ireland even a year later he would not have been eligible.
https://www.independent.ie/sport/fai...-26108028.html
We would have missed his ‘mild ‘ interaction with the Fifa Official in the USA amongst other things. He took awhile to get going on the goal front for us in a style that did not particularly suit him but he stuck with it and had a more than decent Irish Career in the End. He put the effort in.
Thanks Aldo.
It really is a case of the 'winner' writes history.
In the first Charlton campaign all the way through to the finals, we had one of the best full-backs, one of the best centre-backs, two of the best central midfielders, one of the best left and right-wingers and one of the best strikers in England, in our side. It would not be an exaggeration to say that McGrath, Hughton, Moran, Whelan, McGrath, Lawrenson, Sheedy, Houghton and Aldridge were in the top 5 of their position in England at the time. And yet we played a style that was to the strength of none of them, yet we'd our greatest success ever as an International team.
It's baffling.