Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

Been wondering about the "win at home, draw away" narrative that's sprung up on the forum in the last few days with regards to the management team, so I've had a look at the numbers.

In competitive games, the home and away results are almost identical. One more game has been drawn away than at home, the same difference between home and away victories, and two games have been lost both at home and away.

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O’Neill  P  W  D  L
Home    12  6  4  2
Away    12  5  5  2

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For me, this doesn't really prove anything. Draw your own conclusions.

(note these numbers don't include the games played at Euro 2016, where all fixtures were played on neutral territory)

I think it's more that when we are away, the waywe play would suggest a team that has a 'draw away, win at home mentality', but when we're at home, we don't have that mentality.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Been wondering about the "win at home, draw away" narrative that's sprung up on the forum in the last few days with regards to the management team, so I've had a look at the numbers.

In competitive games, the home and away results are almost identical. One more game has been drawn away than at home, the same difference between home and away victories, and two games have been lost both at home and away.

Code:

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O’Neill  P  W  D  L
Home    12  6  4  2
Away    12  5  5  2

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For me, this doesn't really prove anything. Draw your own conclusions.

(note these numbers don't include the games played at Euro 2016, where all fixtures were played on neutral territory)

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To only lose 2 out of 12 games away from home is excellent. To only win 50% of our home games is not good. That's the only conclusion I can draw but I would imagine that the record under Trap is roughly the same with roughly the same type of football. I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.

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Scotland	P	W	D	L
Home	10	6	3	1
Away	10	3	3	4
Wales	P	W	D	L
Home	10	5	4	1
Away	10	5	4	1
N. I.	P	W	D	L
Home	11	7	2	2
Away	11	5	3	3

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

To only lose 2 out of 12 games away from home is excellent. To only win 50% of our home games is not good. That's the only conclusion I can draw but I would imagine that the record under Trap is roughly the same with roughly the same type of football. I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.

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Added in the home and away competitive records of previous three full time managers (Trapattoni's excludes Euro 2012)

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O’Neill  P  W  D  L
Home    12  6  4  2
Away    12  5  5  2

Trapattoni P W D L
Home      16 6 6 4
Away      16 8 7 1

Kerr  P W D L
Home  8 4 3 1
Away  8 3 4 1
       
McCarthy P  W D L
Home    18 11 6 1
Away    18  7 4 7

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Kerr had the same 50% home winning record, but never beat a team ranked higher than 84, Georgia at home in 2003

I think it was established when he departed that Trap was statistically our best away manager ever but worst home (among managers who have managed more than a nominal number of games). It's worth noting that Trap's one away defeat was his last away game (a virtual dead rubber?) in Austria. Noel King was in charge when we lost the last game I think.

He failed to win 10 out of 16 home games. O'Neill has failed to win 6 out of 12. Not great but not quite as bad. I think it just goes to show how similar they are. I argued recently here that not a huge amount has really changed but I was shot down by one poster saying that under MON we've seen nothing even remotely as bad as the 6-1 home defeat to Germany. Well, we can add Denmark as a comparison now!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think it was established when he departed that Trap was statistically our best away manager ever but worst home (among managers who have managed more than a nominal number of games). It's worth noting that Trap's one away defeat was his last away game (a virtual dead rubber?) in Austria. Noel King was in charge when we lost the last game I think.

He failed to win 10 out of 16 home games. O'Neill has failed to win 6 out of 12. Not great but not quite as bad. I think it just goes to show how similar they are. I argued recently here that not a huge amount has really changed but I was shot down by one poster saying that under MON we've seen nothing even remotely as bad as the 6-1 home defeat to Germany. Well, we can add Denmark as a comparison now!

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It seems to me as if O'Neill's "style" (if you could say he has one at all) has regressed more and more into being like the totally-risk-averse style of Trap as time has gone on. Why that is, I don't know, but I definitely remember when O'Neill took over, I felt it refreshing or almost a relief just to see our players pressing again after the mind-numbing dullness, lethargy and stagnancy of how Trap sent us out. I do think O'Neill's teams do press a bit more overall than Trap's teams ever did - it was virtually non-existent under Trap - but our use of the tactic seems to have gradually waned, particularly over this campaign. For example, there was none of it against Georgia away and, although our goal against Wales came from Hendrick pressuring Williams and forcing an error, there wasn't a huge deal of pressing otherwise in that game from what I can recall. That's just my perception of O'Neill's evolution (or devolution, even) as Ireland boss, mind; I have no stats, figures or graphs to necessarily back that feeling up.

Interesting interview here, by the way, from after O'Neill was sacked from his role at Sunderland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5Gf5h1o_s

Some of the questions - particularly the allegation that he had no "plan B" - could still be applied to O'Neill today in respect of his performance as Ireland manager, but he still gets quite tetchy and defensive with the interviewer when he's challenged. He has an evident difficulty in accepting criticism and in acknowledging possible flaws and weaknesses. As one of the commenters below the video on YouTube suggests, is it possible for him to ever learn or evolve if he can't first acknowledge areas of his management that could do with improvement?

Yes, we press more now under MON although the high press against Latvia(?) has regressed since. Full backs get further forward too. But the general style and approach is very similar still.

This is a very well put together piece from Kieran Shannon I think, no hysteria, just fair - http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...xfBj9M5IHfoBU=

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Added in the home and away competitive records of previous three full time managers (Trapattoni's excludes Euro 2012)

Code:

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O’Neill  P  W  D  L
Home    12  6  4  2
Away    12  5  5  2

Trapattoni P W D L
Home      16 6 6 4
Away      16 8 7 1

Kerr  P W D L
Home  8 4 3 1
Away  8 3 4 1
       
McCarthy P  W D L
Home    18 11 6 1
Away    18  7 4 7

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Kerr had the same 50% home winning record, but never beat a team ranked higher than 84, Georgia at home in 2003

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Mick's home record was excellent I see. If only he could have combined the gritty away records of Trap/MON with that we might have been on a par with Germany.

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.

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I hope he goes . I don’t want to watch what Martin O’ Neill has produced football wise for two more years .

I think that would be a good way out for all concerned. It means we can freshen things up without O'Neill having to suffer the ignominy of being sacked.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.

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Koeman being replaced by O'Neill. Ronald will love that....

Would he bring Keane with him, I wonder? If not, Keane would probably be odds on for the Ireland job.

If he goes it will be mixed feelings. The final match was a real letdown and I didn’t agree with all of his decisions. But if we’re being honest he didn’t have a great group of players to select from and the absences of Coleman & McCarthy for important matches in this campaign are in my view a larger reason for our failure to qualify than his tactics or team selections. If our aim is to qualify for Euro 2020 I would be confident that O’Neill is our best chance to do that. I think Roy adds some value to the setup but would have reservations of him being the main man given his temperament & unpredictability.

FAI confident that he'll be staying https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2017...-everton-link/

A bit harsh on Pulis perhaps but something we can easily relate to - http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...re-463522.html

'Opinion: Burnley Are Setting The Blueprint For How Ireland Should Play': https://www.balls.ie/football/irelan...nalysis-378472

Sam Allerdyce has signed an 18-month deal with Everton, so O'Neill won't be going there anyway: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42186164