Eligibility Rules, Okay

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Originally Posted by Newryrep

Never particularily thought about it TBH I doubt many have, I am confident enough in who I am so dont particularily see the need for it and thats without going into the financial mess re pensions, NI contributions etc. If some view me as some sort of inferior irishman then so be it, I couldnt really care less. Much like the erections of flags (apart from Euro 2012 of course) it smacks of insecurity

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I wouldn't call you an inferior Irishman, I would regard that as a subjective adjustment which in no way diminishes your objectivity. And that reasoning could well apply to a nationalist player choosing to represent NI in international competition.

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Originally Posted by Predator

That is a dreadful squad in comparison to Trapattoni's.

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Indeed. Lafferty made 5 league appearances in the championship (albeit, having played well for Derry City, but this wasn't sufficient for Nigel Worthington), while Donnelly played reserve football at Swansea (making his debut at this level only 2 months ago). Both are sufficient qualifications for a call-up to the NI squad. It's testament to the limited playing pool they have.

Jeff Hughes got his first call-up in 6 years on the back of an impressive showing in League One, while the standout player at the same club, Alan Judge, would only be likely to get an Ireland B call-up at best, as things stand.

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Originally Posted by bwagner

at least 7 catholics in that team -

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How do you know that? Perverted guesswork?

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Originally Posted by Predator

How do you know that? Perverted guesswork?

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Haha. Bit of a James McClean-esque comment there by BW. I'd hazard a guess he's referring to past Derry-born players such as McCourt, McGinn, Ferguson and Lafferty and Rory Donnelly has often been mentioned in this context too. Clingan from the Falls Road could be another.

Guesswork again, and I'm not sure if it's relevance given that these players haven't played for Ireland (as far as I'm aware) at any level.

McCourt, McGinn, Ferguson Lafferty, Donnelly,Clingan , Duff - I just sadi this to counter argue what certain people have claimed - that people are trying to make Northern Ireland a one religion only side. i support the north and their players (all players)

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

Indeed. Lafferty made 5 league appearances in the championship (albeit, having played well for Derry City, but this wasn't sufficient for Nigel Worthington), while Donnelly played reserve football at Swansea (making his debut at this level only 2 months ago). Both are sufficient qualifications for a call-up to the NI squad. It's testament to the limited playing pool they have.

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In fairness to Lafferty a) left-backs are always at a premium and b) Michael O'Neill will know plenty about him from his time at Rovers. He deserved a call-up when at Derry imo, and regardless of his Championship record to date, there's every chance he'll go on to be a useful international, possibly even first-choice, for years to come.

I do agree with how limited their pool is though - not much O'Neill can do about that right now.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

that doesn't make senss tho.James mclean and mcginn etc held Irish passports.the only difference between robbie keane and James mclean - IN the context of ' irishness' - is the place they were born yet 1 of them is clearly eligible to play for NI.

what geysir is saying is that being Irish ajd Irish alone and being born in NI is enough to qualify to play for NI.

fifa dont go through some rigorous checks of pre-requisites amd required documentation

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Not sure if that's exactly what geysir is saying, but that would mean that Irish nationality is considered a shared nationality under FIFA's rules, thereby invoking article 6. Such is not the case - Irish nationality is relevant only to the FAI and is not shared by any other association - as was confirmed by CAS. If Irish nationality was indeed shared by both the FAI and IFA, Irish nationals like McClean/Gibson would not be eligible to play for the FAI.

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

If someone, who plays for Northern Ireland, we'll say Niall McGinn for arguments sake, paid the £229 to renounce his British Citizenship (which is given to most born in Northern Ireland, whether they choose or not), would he still be eligible to play for Northern Ireland? I assume not.

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I don't see how he could be.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I wouldn't call you an inferior Irishman, I would regard that as a subjective adjustment which in no way diminishes your objectivity. And that reasoning could well apply to a nationalist player choosing to represent NI in international competition.

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But are they not actively promoting a sense of Northern Irish as a distinct identity which is precisely the reason why their supporters are so vociferous in protecting 'their team' - as there are very few outlets to champion a northern irish identity, which does seem to be flavour of the month now as opposed to formostly british amongst unionist leaning circles?

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Originally Posted by geysir

Yes Fly, I got NB's point straight off. I don't need the explanation as I made it perfectly clear that I understood his point, I do understand that nationality is the core of eligibility. I have been saying that for years.
And my point was that it can bear absolutely no relation to the Irish national identity of the player and Irish nationals born in NI are probably the only players who do not have to produce the passport of the association they represent, to the FIFA match official.

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Apologies if my post was somewhat patronising in tone. Replying to AB does engender that however, and it can linger for a while. ;)

I know you've had a clear grasp of the issue from very beginning.

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Originally Posted by geysir

But, Gerry Armstrong is quite welcome to labour the point ad nauseam in one of his inspirational motivating talks, 'that By playing for Northern Ireland, a player is confirming/exercising his British Citizenship'.

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You're correct to point out the distinction, as it's not something to split hairs over.

It was perhaps a little cheeky of NB to phrase it in that way, but that's more a reflection of thread and not the poster.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Including the sharpest poster on this MB.
Yeah, right.

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If you seem to draw some comfort from believing that Danny was under a similar misapprehension to yourself, then good for you. However, I wouldn't confuse a minor, and quickly corrected, misunderstanding in the last few days over an inter-associational agreement, with your lengthy bewilderment over the last few months. Perhaps Danny can enlighten you as to the truth?

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Originally Posted by Newryrep

But are they not actively promoting a sense of Northern Irish as a distinct identity which is precisely the reason why their supporters are so vociferous in protecting 'their team' - as there are very few outlets to champion a northern irish identity, which does seem to be flavour of the month now as opposed to formostly british amongst unionist leaning circles?

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I suppose that's a consideration, but I'd be reluctant to place such a responsibility onto such young players seeing as their local community accepts their accomplishments with pride, even if that community doesn't support the NI team and probably will never do so.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

eh, i know a lad who was called up at underage for NI without any passport - didnt need one, was young and hadn't travelled abroad, so hadn't applied. Identity or citizenship didnt matter, he considered himself irish.

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Was this at schoolboy level?

You don't need a Passport to be a Citizen of a Nation - although, if you intend to play away internationals, a Passport comes in handy.

Nationality sits at the core of FIFA's eligibility rules - the simple fact is that to represent Northern Ireland, you have to be a British Citizen - to say that "citizenship didn't matter" leads me to think the lad you know was called up to a schoolboy representative side - different kettle of fish, in that scenario.

In terms of eligibility, certainly at Under 19 and above, Citizenship matters very much. A player can "identify" whatever way he likes - it is his British Citizenship (or "Nationality") that renders him eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

As stated previously, Citizenship of the Republic of Ireland absolutely does not make a player eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I suppose that's a consideration, but I'd be reluctant to place such a responsibility onto such young players seeing as their local community accepts their accomplishments with pride, even if that community doesn't support the NI team and probably will never do so.

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Fair point.......... who is anybody to judge ?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

that doesn't make senss tho.James mclean and mcginn etc held Irish passports.the only difference between robbie keane and James mclean - IN the context of ' irishness' - is the place they were born yet 1 of them is clearly eligible to play for NI.

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Because being born in NI means the player is a dual national. British and Irish, the British nationality is required to play for NI

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what geysir is saying is that being Irish ajd Irish alone and being born in NI is enough to qualify to play for NI.

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Yes, because being born in NI entitles you to British citizenship

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fifa dont go through some rigorous checks of pre-requisites amd required documentation

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If a player for example is transferring from one association to another, then the beneficial association has to ensure that the documentation is sent to FIFA for approval.
For the most part, FIFA entrusts all the responsibility of ensuring that the player is eligible, to the association. After that, in an official game that comes under the UEFA/FIFA authority, the players are required to present their passports to an official for inspection. This is to ensure that the player has the nationality of the association he represents. However, as we know there are a number of examples that demonstrate that a passport alone is not sufficient proof of eligibility.
I presume that passport details are recorded by the official. If for any reason there is a perceived cause for an objection to say a player's eligibility to play, there is a procedure that an objecting association can follow.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Was this at schoolboy level?

You don't need a Passport to be a Citizen of a Nation - although, if you intend to play away internationals, a Passport comes in handy.

Nationality sits at the core of FIFA's eligibility rules - the simple fact is that to represent Northern Ireland, you have to be a British Citizen - to say that "citizenship didn't matter" leads me to think the lad you know was called up to a schoolboy representative side - different kettle of fish, in that scenario.

In terms of eligibility, certainly at Under 19 and above, Citizenship matters very much. A player can "identify" whatever way he likes - it is his British Citizenship (or "Nationality") that renders him eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

As stated previously, Citizenship of the Republic of Ireland absolutely does not make a player eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

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Yes at schoolboy to U17, isn't that still Northern Ireland?

I think my point was confused with the different stages to what entitlement, eligibility, and actually acquiring citizenship are.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Yes at schoolboy to U17, isn't that still Northern Ireland?

I think my point was confused with the different stages to what entitlement, eligibility, and actually acquiring citizenship are.

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think you only need a passport for competitive underage internationals. Not sure if schoolboy counts.

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Originally Posted by bwagner

McCourt, McGinn, Ferguson Lafferty, Donnelly,Clingan , Duff - I just sadi this to counter argue what certain people have claimed - that people are trying to make Northern Ireland a one religion only side. i support the north and their players (all players)

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Again, how do you know the spiritual beliefs of those players? It seems to me to be nothing more than perverted guesswork. No need for it really, since, frankly, who cares what religion (if any) these players are?

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Originally Posted by Predator

No need for it really, since, frankly, who cares what religion (if any) these players are?

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James McClean cared about such matters - it dictated his "comfort" level.

Although, judging by some of the friends he keeps around HMP Maghaberry, I'd have thought some people might not be overly comfortable in young James's company.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

James McClean cared about such matters - it dictated his "comfort" level.

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If that were true then he must be in a state of chassis in the Republic's squad.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

James McClean cared about such matters - it dictated his "comfort" level.

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Unless you're plain silly, or being intentionally obtuse, you know what kind of sentiment McClean's naive statements amounted to - the alienating atmosphere of the environment of the Northern Ireland football team in its entirety. However, clearly there is an unwillingness within the Northern Ireland fan base and the IFA to do anything about this.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Although, judging by some of the friends he keeps around HMP Maghaberry, I'd have thought some people might not be overly comfortable in young James's company.

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Go on, spit it out.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Yes at schoolboy to U17, isn't that still Northern Ireland?

I think my point was confused with the different stages to what entitlement, eligibility, and actually acquiring citizenship are.

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Not sure about this, but isn't eligibility at schoolboy level dictated by where a player goes to school rather than his nationality?

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Not sure about this, but isn't eligibility at schoolboy level dictated by where a player goes to school rather than his nationality?

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Dale Gorman, a St. Eunan's Letterkenny student, seems to contradict this through his appearances for the Northern Ireland schoolboy team. I'm sure there are others who are schooled in England who have also played for IFA (and probably the FAI too - when we think of James Wallace and Gerard Kinsella). Possibly it used to be the case... or maybe it never was. Perhaps it was one of those myths that got out of hand.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

If you seem to draw some comfort from believing that Danny was under a similar misapprehension to yourself, then good for you. However, I wouldn't confuse a minor, and quickly corrected, misunderstanding in the last few days over an inter-associational agreement, with your lengthy bewilderment over the last few months. Perhaps Danny can enlighten you as to the truth?

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Clarified my confusion here. An inter-associational agreement would fall foul of FIFA's rules as it would impinge upon the right of players not party to such an agreement to switch association once. I wouldn't envisage an internal, informal declaration like NB seeks to have any problems in relation to the statutes, however.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Clarified my confusion here.

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Sorry I missed that Danny. I can just imagine AB's sense of deflation. ;)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

An inter-associational agreement would fall foul of FIFA's rules as it would impinge upon the right of players not party to such an agreement to switch association once. I wouldn't envisage an internal, informal declaration like NB seeks to have any problems in relation to the statutes, however.

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Dale Gorman, a St. Eunan's Letterkenny student, seems to contradict this through his appearances for the Northern Ireland schoolboy team. I'm sure there are others who are schooled in England who have also played for IFA (and probably the FAI too - when we think of James Wallace and Gerard Kinsella). Possibly it used to be the case... or maybe it never was. Perhaps it was one of those myths that got out of hand.

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I'd imagine Gorman qualifies for NI underage teams but not schools teams.

Thanks for finding that Danny. I've long suspected such an agreement would fall foul of FIFA.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I'd imagine Gorman qualifies for NI underage teams but not schools teams.

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That is possible, but I think it unlikely. I'm inclined to believe that there is no distinction made, but I could be wrong. Now, where are the player eligibility rules for schools teams? :)

The IFA's website lists their squad profiles thus: "Senior, U21, U19, U17, U18 Schooboys, U16 Schoolboys, U15 Schoolboys" and this is their U16 Schooboys profile.
Patrick McNair played for the NISFA teams while being schooled in England.
Here's a source: http://www.nisfa.co.uk/Under_16.aspx

Interesting to see that Conor Thompson never went to school in NI, ever.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

If you seem to draw some comfort from believing that Danny was under a similar misapprehension to yourself, then good for you. However, I wouldn't confuse a minor, and quickly corrected, misunderstanding in the last few days over an inter-associational agreement, with your lengthy bewilderment over the last few months. Perhaps Danny can enlighten you as to the truth?

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Actually I had 'no lengthy bewilderment', except in the obtuse terms it was proposed pretty pointlessly by its originator. Though I am surprised you have chosen to speak for him. Surely he's capable of repeating the same tedious point for infinity?

Or were you anticipating yet another third party's 'sense of deflation'?
;)

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

James McClean cared about such matters - it dictated his "comfort" level.

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Perhaps it was related to these particular 'dreams' you keep referring to...

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Although, judging by some of the friends he keeps around HMP Maghaberry, I'd have thought some people might not be overly comfortable in young James's company.

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If you'd bothered to read his thread on here recently, you'd have seen that the 'Uachtarán na hÉireann' clearly thinks differently...

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Actually I had 'no lengthy bewilderment', except in the obtuse terms it was proposed pretty pointlessly by its originator. Though I am surprised you have chosen to speak for him. Surely he's capable of repeating the same tedious point for infinity?

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If you find simple straightforward ideas, succinctly expressed in short and snappy single line sentences, confusing...then I can't say I'm surprised.

(look at that alliteration!)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Clarified my confusion here. An inter-associational agreement would fall foul of FIFA's rules as it would impinge upon the right of players not party to such an agreement to switch association once. I wouldn't envisage an internal, informal declaration like NB seeks to have any problems in relation to the statutes, however.

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This may need further discussion.
If an association was to suddenly request players at the age of 18 to take an oath of allegiance, then shouldn't that oath of allegiance also state that this in no way impinges upon the player's rights to change his mind according to the FIFA statutes, which kinda defeats the purpose of the oath.
I'm swaying towards an Ardee Bhoy type position and my world hasn't collapsed :)

If 2 associations were permitted by FIFA to make an agreement, then that agreement would have to be included in the statutes to make it CAS proof.
And if it were included in the statutes then would the terms not have to apply to all similar situations, just like article 6?

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Originally Posted by The Fly

Sadly however, I doubt that he provides an insight into the mindset of your typical NI fan. Perhaps NB can gives us an update on that?

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I'm not so sure there is such a thing as 'your typical NI fan' The Fly.

Such terminology is born from typical stereotyping.

Northern Ireland fans, like Republic Of Ireland fans, come from a variety of backgrounds and have a huge array and diversity of opinions.

The thing all Northern Ireland fans have in common is that they are very patriotic.

How that patriotism is expressed is at the core of change.

I sense a growing number of our fans becoming mature and confident enough to understand that expressing 'Northern Irishness' at a Northern Ireland match does not dilute one's Britishness.

I have met many Northern Ireland fans on my travels - they range from being total arseholes to lifelong friends.

The Anthem will change - not to appease our detractors.

Will that make a difference in support from the nationalist/republican community? - I don't think so.

The very nature of nationalism/republicanism is that it wants to see Northern Ireland no longer exist - it would therefore seem to me that no matter what changes are made by the IFA it would be difficult for a nationalist/ republican to support Northern Ireland - especially as they can support the Republic Of Ireland.

That certainly doesn't exercise me - in fact, I find it perfectly logical.

Many Northern Ireland fans, and indeed the IFA, got it all wrong on the eligibility issue.

The challenge now is to make the best of a bad job - and prosper.

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Originally Posted by geysir

If an association was to suddenly request players at the age of 18 to take an oath of allegiance, then shouldn't that oath of allegiance also state that this in no way impinges upon the player's rights to change his mind according to the FIFA statutes, which kinda defeats the purpose of the oath.

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No one has suggested an 'oath of allegiance'.

Nothing I have proposed impinges on any player rights under the FIFA Statutes.

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Originally Posted by geysir

This may need further discussion.
If an association was to suddenly request players at the age of 18 to take an oath of allegiance, then shouldn't that oath of allegiance also state that this in no way impinges upon the player's rights to change his mind according to the FIFA statutes, which kinda defeats the purpose of the oath.
I'm swaying towards an Ardee Bhoy type position and my world hasn't collapsed :)

If 2 associations were permitted by FIFA to make an agreement, then that agreement would have to be included in the statutes to make it CAS proof.
And if it were included in the statutes then would the terms not have to apply to all similar situations, just like article 6?

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A player would still be entitled to switch from the IFA to the FAI if he liked. (And from the FAI to the IFA if he liked; I don't think NB has any issue with players switching to the IFA after having first represented their association of preference, except for when that player is Alex Bruce.) NB wishes to put his faith in the honesty of players. They're asked to declare where their allegiance ultimately lies, they declare and, from there, the IFA decides if they're interested in selecting them. (Isn't that more or less what Bruce did though?) No need for any formal oath with quasi-legal/contractual obligations or anything. Of course, such a system would be vulnerable to bad faith, but NB is clearly prepared to accept that in the hope that most, or at least some, players will be honest rather than see the IFA do nothing and continue to select under-age players who might harbour hopes of ultimately playing for the FAI. There are merely practical issues, but that's the IFA's business. I've no issue with it in principle and don't see how it would fall foul of the rules.

I'm just thinking of the furore last year over the FFF potentially introducing racial quotas; certainly, they'd have defied the spirit of the game and maybe FIFA/UEFA would have persuaded the FFF to drop the idea on that basis if it ever looked like taking off, but I'm wondering would they specifically have fallen foul of the eligibility rules/articles 5 to 8? Associations aren't under any obligation to select/train anyone they don't want to select, after all.

'The very nature of nationalism/republicanism is that it wants to see Northern Ireland no longer exist - it would therefore seem to me that no matter what changes are made by the IFA it would be difficult for a nationalist/ republican to support Northern Ireland - especially as they can support the Republic Of Ireland'. Not Brazil

NB, Taking your point, people from republicans come from a variety of backgrounds ranging from the extremists who advocate violence, to those who are realistic enough to realise that a united Ireland will never occur. It could certainly be argued that it is the political aspect of the IFA as well as the extreme nature of many of its fans that continues to alienate Nationalists.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Such terminology is born from typical stereotyping.
.... The very nature of nationalism/republicanism is that it wants to see Northern Ireland no longer exist

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No - you're wrong. Do you actually know any nationalists? Most who identify themselves as such don't give a flying f*ck about the status of the northern irish state (or soccer team). It is utterly inconsequential to them.

Can you back-up your statement? How many nationalists have personally told you they want to see northen ireland no longer exist?

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Originally Posted by gastric

It could certainly be argued that it is the political aspect of the IFA as well as the extreme nature of many of its fans that continues to alienate Nationalists.

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What exactly do you mean by 'the political aspect of the IFA'?

What exactly do you mean by 'the extreme nature of many of it's fans?

I don't think that Northern Ireland fans are any more 'extreme' than anybody else's fans - whatever extreme means.

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Originally Posted by rellik

No - you're wrong. Do you actually know any nationalists? Most who identify themselves as such don't give a flying f*ck about the status of the northern irish state (or soccer team). It is utterly inconsequential to them.

Can you back-up your statement? How many nationalists have personally told you they want to see northen ireland no longer exist?

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Really?

I know lots and lots of Nationalists and Republicans - I work with, and socialise with, many Nationalists and Republicans.

All of them, who are proudly Nationalist or Republican, would like to see a 'United' 32 County Irish State - that means there would be no Northern Ireland.

Read the manifestos of the SDLP and PSF - then look at the numbers who vote for them.

Your ludicrous post is akin to saying that Unionists don't care about the Union.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Now, where are the player eligibility rules for schools teams? :)

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That's a very good question.

The Northern Ireland Schools' Football Association Rules state:

"A pupil may represent the Association in International matches in accordance with the rules of the Schools' Association Football International Board"

However, the Schools' Association Football International Board website does not provide details of said rules.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

What exactly do you mean by 'the political aspect of the IFA'?

What exactly do you mean by 'the extreme nature of many of it's fans?

I don't think that Northern Ireland fans are any more 'extreme' than anybody else's fans - whatever extreme means.

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I don't want to get dragged into an argument with you, but the extremity of comment on OWC is an example of what alienates many Nationalists. On the political aspect of the IFA, I think this has been commented on many times on this thread.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

If you find simple straightforward ideas, succinctly expressed in short and snappy single line sentences, confusing...then I can't say I'm surprised.

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Really?
Where and when were these?

Clearly your memory doesn't stretch back as far as two days ago...