http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...postcount=1781Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
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http://foot.ie/forums/showpost.php?p...postcount=1781Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Oh. Sorry, he's on my ignore list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
Coir's "economic terrorism" is in the form of a question, not a statement. The government's is the reverse. The quote in my last post shows up how wrong that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
The Greens have opposed every treaty since they were founded, until now when they have to, (as opposed to want) support it. It is relevant in the context of those who argue over the amount of political parties supporting it.Quote:
On the Greens, and I'm not sure how this is really relevant, I think the last time they took no position and may have previously opposed treaties.
It is the political and business class who will be damaged. And you can argue, the way they've treated citizens recently, it's the least they deserve.Quote:
And you really think that having our standing in Europe damaged won't have a negative impact on our influence in the EU?
The citizens, i.e. 99% of the EU will rejoice at us rejecting the treaty, as they were not allowed to do it themselves. They will see our acceptance of it as caving in to political bullying and intimidation.Quote:
Like it or not, rejecting the treaty will be seen by many as a rejection of Europe.
If we follow that logic to it's conclusion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
- Only an idiot or a sulky little bitch would see a rejection of Lisbon as a rejection of Europe.
- Europe is led by idiots and/or sulky little bitches.
- Why are we members of a community led by idiots and/or sulky little bitches?
The "rejection of Europe" argument is positively adolescent, I can't understand why anyone would want to parrot it here.
adam
Thats a lie. And a ridiculous one at that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
OK, so the idea that us rejecting a treaty that all the other governments in Europe have ratified might lead to a lessening of our stature within the community is positively adolescent, but calling them all 'sulky little bitches' is not?Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I guess the divergence here is between those that see Lisbon as a tidy-up exercise that is badly needed to make Europe work better and those that see it as something else entirely, in most cases pretty much a conspiracy of some sort.
Raise your game or don't comment please.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
But he was spot on? The idea that 99% of Europeans would vote No is totally mad. The majority might oppose it for various reasons, but 99%? No way.
Of course he wasn't spot on, however calling it a "ridiculous lie" isn't exactly a calm and calculating way of responding, is it?
It's telling it like it is. The problem was in the original post in my view, not the inevitable response.
Roughly 99% of EU citizens are neither politicians, nor running businesses. As it is that class that want this thing, and trying (not very well it must be said) to sell the "need" of this to their electorates and consumers. Most ordinary folk are content with how the EU works as it is. It's not utopia, but they want their own parliaments to run their lives, not Brussels. Politicians want more power in Brussels, and businessmen want it because it looks good for them.
If anyone else wants it and it's that important to them, well they can turn up at Irish embassies/businesses across the EU next weekend and vent their frustrations, if the result goes against them. If that doesn't happen (and it won't), then that accurately reflects what the vast, vast majority of EU citizens think of the "need" for this treaty imo.
I think this can be solved by mypost not making claims he can't back up with a reasonable explanation, and OneRedArmy responding with some level of courtesy.
mypost has explained himself now, you might not necessarily agree with it - I don't agree with that figure, although I do believe it would be far in excess of a majority* - but it's at least an explanation. I think we should leave it there unless ORA wants to respond civilly.
adam
* Personal opinion.
Why do Irish politicians want more power in Brussels?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Um, is that a rhetorical question?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
Not really, maybe just confusing if read the wrong way. I meant "why do Irish politicians want more power residing in Brussels?" - not why they'd want to be more influential there.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I assumed mypost's reference to "more power in Brussels" was that power would be displaced to Brussels from national parliaments cos he said -
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It's not utopia, but they want their own parliaments to run their lives, not Brussels.
So in effect I was asking, "Assuming, as mypost does, power is to be displaced from national parliaments to Brussels, why would politicians in those national parliaments support something that will apparently see their power and relevance diminished?"
My curiosity remains.
Well we've already got a Ryanair bin service, which FF contested we had no choice about because of EU rules. The EU has steadfastly worked to prize open every part of society for the market and we've been going that way in the realm of health care already. So what's so unbelievable?Quote:
Originally Posted by tipptops
I getcha now, thanks. I can't answer the question, but I guess one could be rather cynical and say: because there's more money in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
More power, for less work.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingdom hoop
The power is given to the European Parliament, giving national parliaments less responsibility for implementing the laws of their country. Any difficult question can be fobbed off with the "that's because of EU legislation" explanation.
I think a lot of the most progressive legislation has come from the EU in the last 30 years. Also I believe that Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are likely to be in positions of power here for at leat the next 30 years so we are going to have a centre right government for all of that time.
The EU is not a socialist body by any means but most of the most progressive legistation in relation to workers rights like paternity leave and other issues in relation to protection of our heritage etc has come from Europe. For someone who seems themselves as a left of centre voter with sympathy to the green issues that are out there, I think the EU rather than my own parliament is more likely to bring in the sort of legislation that I look for.
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Originally Posted by NeilMcD
Back some of that up. The Laval and Luxembourg judgements, the slightly watered down version of Bolkestein have all come out of the EU. These have clearly been anti-worker. And there is really no evidence that the EU is interested ingreen issues. But no government is. Our government is part of the EU establishment. Bottom line is while the EU is a force for pushing neo-liberal policies we shouldn't just see our own parliament as the only alternative. We need to organise ourselves to change things. Voting no to Lisbon is only a beginning.