Shane Long

Yep, good point. I'm not saying it's an anyone versus anyone else thing either. I just think that between Walters and Long they did the job. It might have been better if used in different combinations or scenarios, but who knows?

I actually think Doyle was prematurely discarded but I don't go on moaning about it. And for the record, 12 months ago I was tired of O'Neill and didn't see things getting better. They did, partly by luck and partly by design, but at this point in time he deserves the benefit of any doubt.

I love the infighting.

Oh ya and ban stutts and Delores too.

No, and no

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

No, and no

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That Dolores is bad news though.

Oh yeah. Charlie Darwin, late to the party and in over the top with a right hook after the fight was over. Typical Rovers... ;)

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Oh yeah. Charlie Darwin, late to the party and in over the top with a right hook after the fight was over. Typical Rovers... ;)

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Have to find some use for my umbrella in this weather...

Firstly, I think most people would agree that Long should have started more games during this campaign. The brute force approach of Walters/Murphy was generally criticised on here, by myself included. I agree with Irwin (and probably everybody else) that Murphy ever starting over Long is a hard one to explain. To be fair to O'Neill though, he seemed to explain it indirectly the other day with his remarks about it being so important for a centre forward to have the ability to hold the ball up. He obviously didn't think that Long did this well enough and that pretty much explains why he went with Murphy over him a couple of times. Whether this was unfair on Long is certainly open to question, but clearly that was the logic behind it.

O'Neill's comments much further back probably explain why Long wasn't first choice in the earlier part of the campiagn. I remember him saying that playing out wide for his club wasn't an adequate excuse for not scoring enough goals, sighting his own playing days at Nottingham Forest. Again, maybe Long's goal ratio tells another story but O'Neill obviously still felt that Robbie Keane was the best bet to put the ball in the net, which was probably compounded by Keane's hat-trick against Gibraltar early on. To be fair to O'Neill also, he identified reasonably quickly that Keane wasn't the player you could trust against decent opposition any longer, dropping him for Glasgow and giving Long his opportunity to shine.

Unfortunately, and through very little fault of his own I think, that game did more harm than good for Long, as it probably confirmed any preconceived notions that O'Neill had about him (i.e. not a big enough goal threat and incapable of holding the ball up). And so it was back to Keane for Poland, and one last chance to impress against decent opposition. It took until the Georgia home game to realise that Keane isn't even our best option against semi-decent opposition any longer.

It's Long's underuse prior to this campaign that I think is worth debating, stats are nothing without context.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Del, I think that having less than 2 starts per season (less than 1 competitive start per season) does not constitute a fair crack at the whip at finding your feet in the team and gaining confidence as an international player. That he did not do well in 2013 is not surprising as he was really only being given a prolonged run of starts for the first time since 2007 and his exposure had been stop-start before that. Just because Long was behind Doyle for that long doesn't mean that he should have been.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

There is no doubt in my mind that he has been underused in his international career. To illustrate this Walters nearly has the same amount of minutes as Long, despite Long being in the squad 3-4 years more than Walters.

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Was it not generally accepted that Doyle was ahead of Long on merit up until Euro 2012 at least though? I can't remember any major outcry for Long's inclusion in the first team up until then anyway. Therefore I think stats dating back to 2007 from that point in time are a bit irrelevant, it's all about context.

Long was generally used as a substitute and given opportunities to start in friendlies, which was fair enough at the time I think. It is international football after all, two starts a season is probably fairly standard for a player who isn't first choice. There aren't that many opportunities to help guys find their feet if there are perceived better options ahead of him.

So, for me, the only real question is whether or not he has got amble opportunities post-Euro 2012. I've already discussed the current campaign so that only leaves the WC14 qualifiers. Like I mentioned, he started our four key games, against Sweden and Austria. He possibly should have started more of the other games but it was a fairly disjointed campaign anyway, and I don't think he really grabbed the very good opportunities he did get. Overall he definitely could and probably should have started more games for us, but I don't think it's been quite a big an injustice and ye guys seem to think. If he was always as consistently good as he has been this season, I would have an entirely different view.

For me it was more a concern of MO'N resorting to hoofball tactics in the awful spectacle against the Swiss and in that scenario Walters and Murphy are seen as better.targets and where Long's talents are under-utilised.
If MO'N has since attended addiction therapy in order to wean himself of his compulsions to resort to mentally challenged hoofball, then we can write off that Swiss game as a final hoof binge where MO'N reached rockbottom and we now seek other intelligent ways to counterattack with Long as his nr 1.

This thread is a classic example of the problem with International football. Such a big gap between games that fans resorting to talking ****.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I haven't considered numbers really, I'm just going from memory and I know he started against Sweden twice and Austria twice in our last campaign, our four biggest matches. He did well in the first half of the Austria home game but was ineffective otherwise. He was ineffective in Glasgow in this campaign. I would have certainly started him ahead of Murphy in this campaign though, no doubt. It's not remotely comparable to the way Hoolahan was frozen out imo.

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I think he was better than Walters in Glasgow and the problem was Walters was shoehorned up front with him. when Long playing as the lone striker would've caused Hanley more problems. In fact Hanley could have been sent off for a last man foul on Long.

He's been hard done by a long time. Sure Andy Keogh and Simon Cox were getting games ahead of him out wide when Long's pace, link-up play and crossing were far better.

The only thing worth responding to in your post Delirium (only because we'd both be repeating ourselves) is related to him v Doyle and the merits of a start. Just looking through this thread, it looks like the serious calls for Longs inclusion as a starter (ahead of both Doyle and Keane btw) began in late 2010 and early 2011. It coincided with his 20+ goal season in the championship coupled with Doyle's 3 goal season w/Wolves and Robbie's loss of form. It also came after his complete dismantling of Uruguays defence in a friendly after they reached the semis of the World Cup. They beat us of course but his performance was the stand out. Some posts complained that Trap just didn't rate him and questioned why.

Anyway, I still believe that Long didn't get the chances in green that he deserved until way too late in the day. Sure he had some games in 2013 and, sure, he missed a couple of chances but he has been generally very under utilized by Trap and MoN. Hopefully this is his tournament!!

Europa League football for Shane-dog next season too! Nice!

Southampton have gone from 8th to 7th to 6th (probably but maybe even 5th) in the last three seasons despite losing Lovren, Shaw, Chambers, Clyne, Shaw, Schneiderlin, Lallana, Lambert and even Alderweireld (although he was only on loan) in that time. Seriously impressive resilience especially taking in the fact that they lost Pochettino as well.

They lost Shaw, you say ?

To lose Shaw once might have been unfortunate but to have lost him twice is outright careless.

Thanks for making it clear Stutts, I had no idea what Crafty was on about, but somehow I knew that the joke was on me. :)

What was it Wilde said? There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about. Shaw-ly some mistake?

Wilde? I was absolutely livid.



(You need to be approaching 50, or older, I think)

Still a few years off, Stutts, but old enough to remember Prof Fielding and Gerald. Thanks for the reminder to watch it again!

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

What was it Wilde said? There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about. Shaw-ly some mistake?

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There is only one thing worse than playing squash together and that is playing it by yourself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxXW6tfl2Y0