Lisbon Treaty

While the Coir minimum wage poster appears at first glance, mad, when you think about it, it does have some merit. Minimum wages across the EU are lower, some cases like the UK considerably lower than ours, and there are regular calls for ours to be lowered for business reasons. So while the amount on the Coir ads is not going to happen tomorrow, it could be dramatically lower than it currently is in the next few years, and if the EU issue uniform rates for everyone, then who knows what it will be?

The Yes side have come up with mad slogans such as Labour's. What jobs? :confused::confused: or "I'm safer in Europe" (we are in Europe), and "We Belong", with probably the worst referendum marketing campaign ever, a lukewarm "You Decide" as their slogan.

It is unfortunate that Dunphy, Myers, and McGrath have caved in to economic terrorism, and thrown their weight in behind the government. So of course, have the press.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/ed...n-1891737.html

Well, at least they respect our concerns, before they dismiss them.

The key line of course is:

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Technically, voting No will not change those fundamentals

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Whether the editor likes it or not, away from the elites and the power-freaks, most of Europe are hoping and will celebrate it's rejection. The British people desperately want to reject it, the Germans want a referendum, the French and Dutch want their votes to be respected, the Czech President is relying on us to stick to our side of the bargain and keep our word from last time.

I look after those people before I look after those whose only reason to endorse it is to feather their own nest at the expense of their own people.

Its relentless at this stage by the media in their disgracefully biased "reporting" on this debate.The usual suspects are there again,RTE and Independent Newspapers.


Charlie Mc.Creevey,December '08 Edition of Hotpress Magazine-"Given the chance,i'd say 90% of Europeans would vote NO to this Treaty"!!!!!!!

There's not much Independence in Independent Newspapers on this. They're unashamedly willing to sell the country and our constitution down the Liffey, so that in 5 years time, when the public is revolting while Ireland barely exists in the EU, and decisions that affect us are taken behind closed doors and without our consent, they can convince themselves that the decision made in 2 weeks time, was in the best interests of the Irish people.

:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

"No to nuts; Yes to Lisbon", with a monkey. Like, WTF?

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Presumably a reference to the fact that many of the vocal backers of the No side are nutjobs from both extremes of the political spectrum.

The people backing the No campaign like Coir and Sinn Fein remain the biggest asset the Yes side has.

It could be argued that if there are nutjobs on the No side, there are conmen a plenty on the other side.

Conmen? There are plenty on the No side who have opposed every single European Treaty, and yet the EU overall has been very, very good for us. Why would the EU suddenly turn on us and act contrary to our interest now?

The real con men in my eyes are those that constantly predict that Yes will bring Armageddon, and continue to do so despite being wrong every time.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Presumably a reference to the fact that many of the vocal backers of the No side are nutjobs from both extremes of the political spectrum.

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That's the meaning I took alright, but (a) I'd expect a more mature level of debate from the Yes side (or else ban posters, as I've suggested before) and (b) it's not actually a reason to vote Yes.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

...(or else ban posters, as I've suggested before)...

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I'd vote for that. They contribute nothing but misleading, vacuous, rabble-rousing soundbites to every election, and then eye level ziplock tags for cyclists to clip afterwards.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

That's the meaning I took alright, but (a) I'd expect a more mature level of debate from the Yes side (or else ban posters, as I've suggested before) and (b) it's not actually a reason to vote Yes.

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People vote for all sorts of reasons though, including which side they think is more trustworthy. People were voting no the last time because they feared 'their sons would be conscripted into an EU army'. It is a bit of a crap poster though.

Irish Times Editorial on Lisbon today pretty well sums up my views on it: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...254908194.html

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Originally Posted by Mr A

The real con men in my eyes are those that constantly predict that Yes will bring Armageddon, and continue to do so despite being wrong every time.

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Um, you haven't noticed those on the Yes side maybe, slightly, just a tad, suggesting that a No will bring Armageddon? Hello?

I certainly think a second no will have negative consequences for the country and will probably damage us in Europe. Those seem a hell of a lot more credible to me, even if some do go too far with them, than any of the stuff from the No side.

And that's Armageddon is it? Ireland will collapse in on itself in totality if we don't vote for Lisbon? Well, collapse in on itself more. Funny, that sounds almost exactly like what the Yes posters are trying to say.

It's not Armageddon obviously, but certainly more credible than claims about the minimum wage etc as made by the No camp.

They're both ridiculous claims. Citing them is equally ridiculous.

I don't think the idea that Lisbon will damage us in Europe to be ridiculous at all.

And in any case, ridiculous claims certainly do influence how people vote, and personally I think the No side has been way more guilty of this, and some of them have been at it since we joined the EEC.

In fact I always look forward to the first SF claim of 'increased militarisation' as a source of amusement.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Conmen? There are plenty on the No side who have opposed every single European Treaty, and yet the EU overall has been very, very good for us.

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How many treaties have the Greens supported before? How many have the social partners rejected? How many have business heads rejected?

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Why would the EU suddenly turn on us and act contrary to our interest now?

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Because under Lisbon, they'll have the means to do it.

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The real con men in my eyes are those that constantly predict that Yes will bring Armageddon, and continue to do so despite being wrong every time.

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You're giving another history lesson in your post, which is meaningless. This affects our and Europe's future. This is the first EU Treaty which contains a constitution. That's a hell of a lot different to treaties we voted and passed before. There will be significant changes and it won't be long before we see the effects of them.

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I don't think the idea that Lisbon will damage us in Europe to be ridiculous at all.

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It is scaremongering, plain and simple.

If jobs leave this country, it won't be because of Lisbon, it will be because the country is too expensive to operate in. And passing 1 or 20 EU Treaties can't cover that up.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

Presumably a reference to the fact that many of the vocal backers of the No side are nutjobs from both extremes of the political spectrum.

The people backing the No campaign like Coir and Sinn Fein remain the biggest asset the Yes side has.

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WTF whatever about the Shinners, surely you cant beat FF for riding the country up the arse.
I was thinking about good no posters - something along the lines of having Cowen and Harney, "vote yes, trust us we are policitians"

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Originally Posted by mypost

How many treaties have the Greens supported before? How many have the social partners rejected? How many have business heads rejected?

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No answer. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, the Minister who can't count, is lecturing us on the economic "benefits" of voting for his treaty.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...255061775.html

If you like, you can read his rose-tinted nonsense, however you can skip to the most important bit which is:

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“The No side says that the EU will stay the same if the Irish people reject the treaty. that is formally correct, as a matter of law..."

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Therefore everything else in his argument is automatically meaningless.

So let's get a few things straight here- the Yes side are scaremongering and using 'Economic Terrorism' but there is credence to what Coir have been saying?

On the Greens, and I'm not sure how this is really relevant, I think the last time they took no position and may have previously opposed treaties. Good to see they've grown up a bit from the shrill, whiny McKenna politics is how I see that.

And you really think that having our standing in Europe damaged won't have a negative impact on our influence in the EU? Like it or not, rejecting the treaty will be seen by many as a rejection of Europe.

And you're really arguing that the history of the EU is no guide to what it will do in future? I really don't buy the idea that they're somehow intent on screwing us over.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

So let's get a few things straight here- the Yes side are scaremongering and using 'Economic Terrorism' but there is credence to what Coir have been saying?

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I'm not sure at whom this is directed, but I can't recall having read anyone say that of Coir.