You know what, that's unfair. Westwood is in superb form and showing why City were linked with him; long may it continue. It's good to have good back up for Forde.
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You know what, that's unfair. Westwood is in superb form and showing why City were linked with him; long may it continue. It's good to have good back up for Forde.
I, and a few others, feel that Westwood should be our number one, but it's not solely off the back of his performances over the past few weeks. I simply think he's a better all-round keeper than Forde. I've long thought that. In fact, he probably would be our number one had it not been for his injury giving Forde the opportunity to solidify his place. Despite Westwood's club form, I don't see how the management can drop Forde without him committing an awful clanger or two, however. I'd like Westwood to be number one, but Forde committing clangers isn't something I want to see either.
Yeah I think that's fair but isn't management about making the hard calls? I mean, the goalkeeping position shouldn't be different to any other, it should go to the best player. Just because Paul Green did well in Stockholm, it didn't stop Glenn Whelan walking back into his midfield spot for Austria. That's not to say that MON agrees that Westwood is the better keeper in the first place of course, but saves like those at the weekend could genuinely be the difference between making it or not. At least two of those saves were deep in bonus territory and Westwood would have been blameless had they gone past him. I think even Forde's spectacular saves are generally ones that would have been poor had they gone in, and some of the goals he concedes I feel Westwood could have done better. We're lucky to have them both but I think Westwood is significantly better.
I agree with you general point, in fact I believe an in-form Westwood to be a better keeper to. But, again, I totally disagree with the emboldened point.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Forde got an opportunity from injury but he essentially wrestled the gloves off Westwood by given our shellshocked defence some stability and command. Westwood can do the same, but he didn't do when he had the chance. Not the way Forde did when he came in. He pretty much demanded to be picked.
Not to harp on this point too much, but I do think there's a general forgetfulness about how surprisingly safe and assured Forde was when he came in, at a time when our defence was anything but.
Anybody could have been in goals for that German game and it wouldn't have made a difference. Westwood was very assured when he came in for Given. My memory was that Westwood was replaced by Mannone at Sunderland after picking up an injury, and couldn't get back in because Mannone had a decent spell while he was out. I thought he lost his place to Forde then as he wasn't playing first team football at his club? Or was he actually injured when Forde took over?
My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
We can agree to disagree, and I'm not getting at Westwood for his German performance, but I think Forde was far more commanding in his area and of his defenders when he was introduced. Particularly given how confidence-free they were when he started.
I wouldn't harp on about it so much except a) I think there is Forde's early performances are deeply undervalued by some and b) I'm a big fan of the three fish supper legend that is Fordey, as a person as much as keeper.
You ask me who's the better keeper on top form, it's got to be Westwood. But selection is trickier than that and Forde took advantage to claim the shirt.
EDIT - You might be right about it being based on club form rather than injury. Although it could be said Forde partially asked the question after getting a couple of starts through injuries etc.
DeLorean you have it spot on, thats exactly what happened.
I have to say though, looking at the saves again 3 out of 4 were either at him, or he had plenty of time to get over and react. The 4th one less so as he is moving backwards buts still gets a hand up and over to keep it out.
Forde, bar 2 games, provides aerial solidity, and that gives confidence to defenders.
The fourth one is probably the best, but the second is my favourite - something about him clawing the ball off the line when it looks like it's all but in. It was slow moving, but with the ball coming off the ground it still took fantastic reactions to keep it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I'm happy with our goalkeeping position right now. Bothnoyr best keepers are doing fine and playing regularly. While I think Westwood is better there'd need to be a catalyst for him to take over. For a competitive game. I suspect Westwood might start the USA game and if he plays well he could be seen as the guy in charge.
I really haven't seen any reason why Forde should be dropped for Westwood. There is not much between them. Go back to Westwood's Irish performances and if you look hard enough he's far from perfect either. As someone has alluded to (this thread I think) attitude and desire might be playing a part in the decision making too.
Westwood is in fine form so far this season after 11 games, and he's had a couple of masterclasses, but Forde has had lengthy patches of form last season that were integral to Millwall staying up with a patchwork defence.
Around the time of the Greece game, he went something like 7 clean sheets in 11 games. Around the time of the Austria (h) game, he went something like 6 clean sheets in 7 games; and the dropped points against Austria can hardly be attributed solely to him, as the entire team from top to bottom was a collective bag of nerves. I think he won Player of the Season on the back of last season's form. You wouldn't find many Millwall fans doubting his use to the team.
The Paddy Kenny analogy went down badly, and his career is in the doldrums, but it was only two or three years ago that he was in great form with Leeds after getting his weight and personal life back in order and people were calling for him to be reinstated to the team.
What I'm saying is that Westwood has been class (hardly perfect) after a shaky couple of years; people are forgetting that his form didn't go unquestioned when he got one of his runs in the Sunderland team. Forde has been POTY contender at Millwall for half-a-dozen years now and has adapted grandly to Intl. football.
There is no need to change something that ain't broke. LB, 3rd choice CB, the Whelan conundrum, the Hoolahan conundrum and whittling down who plays with Keane and McGeady from the likes of Long, Walters and McClean are more pressing issues. IMO.
We should be glad we have two goalkeepers in such good form at a decent level, and arguably a third in the omitted Henderson. Until Westwood is playing in a higher league than Forde, we have to assume they're at the same level and Forde is the man in control.
Was anyone calling for Kenny to be reinstated to the team? Were many people calling for Kenny's return to the squad? My recollection of the time is that I wouldn't have been averse to him being number 3.
Definitely, I agree. Dropping a goalkeeper is often seen as amounting to a bolder statement or a greater upheaval for some reason than were an outfield player to be dropped for a better player. I don't know why, to be honest, but I'd like to think that O'Neill has it in him to make such tough, potentially-contentious decisions and I'd be fully in favour of him making such a call with regard to the Forde/Westwood question. Then again, as you acknowledge, maybe O'Neill simply does favour Forde as the better keeper...Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Actually I think you have the more accurate memory on this matter, you should just know you're right when Paul says you're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
When Forde made his first start in that friendly v Italy in Belgium, Westwood was injured.
the friendly against Poland came after that. Forde was first reserve to Given in a qualifier before that Italy game.
That Italian game is long before what we were actually talking about though. I presume Westwood was injured for that qualifier you're referring to because he was definitely first choice reserve at that point.
Time is flexible on these matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
SXD wrote "My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there."
Forde got his chance to start v Italy when Westwood was out injured.
Later Westwood was first choice to replace Shay, but when benched and injured with Sunderland for 6 months, then Forde became nr at that Poland game.
How can you be benched and injured at the same time or are you trying to run the two together to make it look like you're right and mask your assertion about benching rather than being injured initially when forde got his chance?
Technically it could be spun that way but, given the article SvD linked, I reckon we were on the same wavelength, and discussing the coming about of Forde overtaking Westwood post-Euros.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I'm not spinning anything. SvD was just recalling a memory, that Forde got a look in when Westwood was injured, his memory was vague when that event happened. I merely pointed out the game where it did happen, not at the Poland game as he thought but at the italy friendly.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
One can have mixed in time memories :)
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Perhaps if I had written that Westwood was benched/ injured at Sunderland for a 6 month period prior to the Poland game. it might have been clearer for you.
He was injured for some of the time and when he was fit he mainly sat on the bench. His shoulder and neck injuries are a matter of public record. He only played 3 league cup games for Sunderland and none since Oct 2012 before the Poland friendly Feb 2013 when Forde started. For that game, Forde was chosen ahead of Westwood.
In your paranoid head, what exactly was I trying to mask?
Well you said SvD's memory was more accurate on this matter. That depends on what SvD meant by...Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
"My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there."
If SvD did mean that Forde got a look-in, when Westwood was injured back in June of 2011 against Italy, then you are correct. I don't think that's what he meant though. We were talking about when Forde took over from Westwood post-Euros, and he thought that an injury to Westwood gave Forde his chance at that point, when in fact it was Westwood's lack of first team football, albeit caused by an injury! If it is the latter, then I think you could say...
You Geysir, are the wicked deflection.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
:D
Reading a bit of the Keane book last night actually and he was talking about goalkeepers. He was saying how Craig Gordon was applauded off the field by the other players, after his first training session with Sunderland. Keane said it was the only time he's ever seen that. He was out of this world by all accounts.
He then talked about how he didn't quite take goalkeepers for granted (eg. Schmeichel, Packie) but that he always felt that they were only doing what you'd expect them to do. He said it's only when you have a bad one that you fully appreciate the good ones. Shay Given didn't get a solitary mention in the book, make of that what you will.
I see shades of Roy Keane in Paul O'Shea.
Considering I edited it for clarity and said those rarest of rare foot.ie words ('You might be right...') AND then said previous injuries possibly allowed Forde to ask the question, what exactly is the debate over what I said? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Why do you continue to question Paul's reasoning?
He's on a higher intellectual plane. You have no right to question him Danny.
Cop on Bonnie. A Mayo man with a high intellectual plane. A misnomer if ever there was one!;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
He's from Roscommon I'll have you know.
Then I will repeat the claim leaving the smiley face out! Definitely a misnomer.
After a string of horrendous performances, Mannone has been dropped for Pantillimon. Obviously the move was right for Westwood at the time, but still goes to show Mannone is no great shakes and Westwood could have played him out of the team.
More praise for Eastwood, this time from Steve Evans.
http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/sheff...vans-1-6939136
I doubt Westwood would have. Mannone was SAFC Player of the Year last season and started the well this year. The last couple of weeks he's been poor and needed to to be dropped as his confidence had been hit big team. Westwood was unlucky at Sunderland but Mignolet and Mannone are better keepers. That was the problem for Westwood. He got his chance when Mignolet got injuried and did well but got a knock before the City game and lost his place to Mignolet. When Mignolet got sold to Liverpool, Westwood got his chance but got injuried again and lost it to Mannone. Both keepers ended up begin the clubs Player of the Year. He's not a bad keeper just very unlucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Although he did have a good spell last season, there's no way I'd agree that Mannone is better than Westwood. He looked poor at Arsenal, started to look extremely dodgy near the end of last season and has been nothing short of horrific in recent weeks.
I had seen Mannone at Arsenal and over a year ago and never rated him at all. I thought Westwood was by far the better keeper. But Westwood had a very shaky start to last season. Sometimes a keeper can look good behind a shaky devence, but Westwood looked as lost as his defenders sometimes. Mannone was given his chance and he took it well but I think he was in exceptional form by his standards. Now he's back to normal. I feel for him though. When things go wrong for a keeper they often go very wrong. He may have looked stupid but at least his worst errors didn't actually cost them any points.
His errors definitely cost them points at the end of last season, notably against Man City and I think he was pretty poor for a Wes Brown own goal against Everton also. He had a bad night at WHL when they lost 5-1 but they were well beaten anyway.
I remember Westwood being blocked off from a corner that lead to a goal early last season, but did he really have a very shaky start otherwise? My memory is that he was going quite well before he got that injury.
That corner incident was in my mind alright. I thought a few inswinging balls were causing him bother. No errors as such, but failure to impress was more the issue. Agreed, wrt Mannone, though I was really only talking about this season. By themselves last season's errors can be excused but his late season form combined with his early season form this year suggest to me he is being found out now.
Crucial block by KW on 85 mins to keep SWFC level at 0-0 at Huddersfield. And he has a tricolour on his goalie gloves.
Murphy in nets at the other end. Scannell also playing.
Murphy just saves really well, one on one vs Drenthe on 91 mins. Mad finish to the game.
The whole team looked bad under di Canio's dictatorship. If Westwood hadn't got injured as Hull he would have kept his place. It was just bad luck that Mannone (a bit like Mignolet) came in played out of his skin! Westwood was one of the few positives from those first 8 games.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Being a keeper is difficult. You could point to 3/4 games Mannone caused Sunderland last season and you easily point to 3/4 games he got Sunderland the points
I assume you didn't sit through the first 70 minutes of tedium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Another clean sheet for Westwood. Ropey enough start for him by his standards but then produced his usual excellent saves and accurate clearances. Not too many comments I see about him leaving the squad injured and then playing early on the Saturday. Must be extremely frustrating for him to see Given back as No. 2 apparently. At his best Westwood is also a better keeper than Forde but the latter has done nothing to be unseated.
Murphy did well but Scannell flattered to deceive. His opponent, Helan, was equally as pacey so Scannell didn't achieve much.
http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/sheff...rray-1-7000882
There are growing fears Westwood could be lured away from Wednesday when the transfer window reopens in January. His form has been of the highest standard.
Murray said: “Keiren didn’t play enough at Sunderland but he has shown he can stay fit and play regularly at Wednesday.
“Because of how good Keiren is with his feet, I think he would be even more suited to the Premier League because it’s more about shot-stopping and distribution at that level.
“Keiren will be getting noticed and on people’s radar. He is 30 and coming into his prime.
“If Wednesday don’t tie him down on a long deal soon, someone could come in for him but I think Premier League clubs will looking at him and thinking more next year.
“If Wednesday don’t get him on a longer deal, then clubs will know they can get him on the cheap either in the summer or definitely this time next year.”
Unless he's guaranteed first team football, I doubt if he'd leave. I'd say he's had enough of warming the benches in the Premiership. I don't know enough about the EPL to see whether there are any vacancies there between the sticks, ignoring the temporary crisis at Newcastle.
He's also too injury prone to take a risk on perhaps? He missed the last Irish game due to injury (apparently).