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I haven't manufactured anything. FIFA haven't ruled on the issue and it is still under consideration for over 18 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
DG has a right to Irish citizenship. That is not in dispute. It is open to interpretation whether or not he qualifies to play for the RoI football team. I think he does but it is not cut and dried.
Maik Taylor would not qualify for NI now but the rules are not applied retrospectively. He did qualify when he was first picked.
Your right :) I apologise but you see my point?!Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
IF FIFA rule that he is ineligible for us then he will be allowed play for NI. He has however stated it is us or nobody.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
No need for apologies I abuse everyone on the site.Quote:
Originally Posted by livehead1
thats about all you do!! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Why wouldn't he qualify now? He's a naturalised British citizen. He can pick any of the four British teams provided he hadn't played for someone else in a full international. Don't the four British teams have an exemption?Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
Their player options are probably double to what they admit too. There are more naturalised British citizens in Britain than there are people in the whole of O6C. That's where they can pick their players from in the unlikely situation of all nationalists, and the odd rotten prod, 'defecting' to Mexico.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
And don't give me this 'we want our own players from our own wee country [sic.]'. The IFA have had no problem picking naturalised Britons for years, which sort of damages the poor, victimised IFA picture they are currently portraying. As does the previous booing of these players they claim to love and not want to let go. Won't mention the death threat as that was, according to some on ourweeminds, Uncle Gerry and Martin with a 20p piece, who made that call. :rolleyes:
By FIFA's Legal standards this is a ruling. Why do think they are still considering it? In particular reference to the present situation, Oct 2006.Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
"letter from Heinz Tannler, Director of FIFA's Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of their General Legal department stated 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'."
Only by the IFA interpretation, not by FIFA Legal dept. as evident in the letter from Oct 2006 and as evident by the consistent FIFA arbitrations over the yearsQuote:
DG has a right to Irish citizenship. That is not in dispute. It is open to interpretation whether or not he qualifies to play for the RoI football team. I think he does but it is not cut and dried.
I don't know Maik Taylor's status.Quote:
Maik Taylor would not qualify for NI now but the rules are not applied retrospectively. He did qualify when he was first picked.
Darron is ruled eligible now. No matter what FIFA may change in the future he will remain eligible. And he would not be allowed to change even if he wanted to.
Which, to the devastation of many Northern Ireland 'fans', he has no intention of doing!Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Why can’t they just leave it? Even if they are successful in proving Gibson should not be playing for us, all that will come out of it is a young 19 year olds dream of playing for the country he always dreamed of will be shattered. He has made it clear he does not want to play for the North so that should be the end of it.
In their defence, they are also looking at the wider issue. There are a number of young players born in the North who have chosen to play for us. Of course, this is irritating those north of the border and they would like FIFA to rule that this is not a legal move. This is what is being debated, however badly I believe it has been debated. Mainly down to the fact that I don't see where the debate arises from, he has an Irish passport, therefore he can play for Ireland!Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeag
You are quite correct that Maik Taylor would still qualify, since the specific Exemption to which you refer in FIFA's Regs is still in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by lopez
However, you greatly overstate the actual availability of naturalised Britons who would both play for NI and whom we would also have. The vast majority live in Great Britain, so would inevitably opt first for England, Scotland or Wales who between them offer a wide range of standards. Which explains why in the last 30 years, there have been only two that I can think of whom NI have picked that way, (both keepers, as it happens).
The first was Trevor Woods who gained a solitary cap as a second half substitute in a game vs Liechtenstein in 1995. Being Jersey-born, had he not been eligible for a British Association, he would not have been eligible for any international team, which is hardly fair imo. (It was the same with Matt Le Tissier, even if England never knew how to use his talent properly!)
The second was Taylor. Although born in Germany (father was in the forces), afaik he was brought up in South Africa, at a time when it was not a member of FIFA, so international football was not an option available to him. And by the time SA was readmitted (1992), Taylor had moved to England, where he was starting his playing career with Farnborough Town.
Further, it is 8 years since he made his debut for NI; since then, no Naturalized Briton has played for NI under the UK Passport exception, nor even been seriously considered (to my knowledge). Indeed, both Sanchez and the IFA publicly took a hard line on not picking players with some NI connection when the subject was raised a couple of years back.
Anyhow, whilst interesting in its own right, this deviation towards discussing the cases of Taylor and Woods has no real relevance to the Gibson case, since both are specifically covered by a FIFA exemption in a way which Gibson is not (whether he is eligible for the ROI by another means or otherwise)
Lee Trundle turned down Lawrie Sanchez IIRC.
As the IFA have consistently pointed out, this is nothing personal against Gibson. If he doesn't want to play for NI there is no way we could or would force him (even if he seemed happy enough to play for us as a youth).Quote:
Originally Posted by FarBeag
However, there may well be other players who aren't actually bothered either way i.e. they just wish to play football, without regard to political considerations, and will pick the most attractive options open to them.
As such the IFA risks a significant dilution of an already small player pool, which in itself would be bad enough. But invariably the players concerned were first discovered and nurtured by the IFA, inc. Gibson, whose professed lifelong affinity to the ROI only is perhaps questionable, considering he has disclosed that a falling out with an IFA coach over being allowed leave from the NI team he was playing for (to attend a trial at MU) was partly behind his switching.
Further, all the Northern players who have been selected, plus those who have been approached but declined, are from the Nationalist community, so that the NI team risks being turned into a de facto Unionist-only team, through no fault of its own and completely contrary to its wishes.
And, of course, we are only facing this situation now because the FAI, under Brian Kerr, unilaterally broke a Gentleman's Agreement, brokered by FIFA in 1950(?), whereby the FAI agreed not to select Northern players and the IFA not to select Southern players (which both had been doing). which again would be bad enough, were it not for the fact that with the Agreement broken, the flow of players is only ever going to be one way, to the disadvantage of only one party (and not the one which broke the Agreement, either).
Or put it another way: how would ROI fans feel if the UK and Irish Government came to some sort of agreement, for purely political (i.e. non-footballing) reasons, which suddenly meant that all ROI citizens were suddenly eligible for a UK Passport, so that a section of your player pool now had the option of representing England? It would not ever be likely to be many players in practice, but even if it was only a few who were attracted by the huge extra money, prestige etc associated with playing for England, that would be significantly to the detriment of your team, especially since it would likely be the better players.
There would be a serious outcry in the Republic, of that I'm certain.
I don't know any NI fans who would be "devastated". And even the MU fans would be considerably more upset if for some reason we lost Jonny Evans (or even young Craig Cathcart).Quote:
Originally Posted by livehead1
From what I can gather, the reaction has ranged all the way from disappointment Gibson's not available, through not being bothered about him if the player himself is not bothered about us, to a minority(?) who resent him for choosing as he has done.
For myself, whilst I find it disappointing that his preference is for another team, I am in no position to wish him ill; indeed, if it should turn out that FIFA finally considers he should be eligible, then I wish him good luck in his career.
Equally, should FIFA decide he is not eligible, then I would be quite prepared to welcome him back for consideration for NI (even if it is v.unlikely he would avail of that option)
18 pages down lads only another 70 to go on this topic and we have outdone OWC.
Except that in FIFA's 3 main criteria on eligibility, holding a passport is not mentioned once.Quote:
Originally Posted by livehead1
When it comes down to it, FIFA will judge based not on bi-lateral political settlements to which they are not signatories, but to protect the interests of their member associations. Losing the dubious ability to select players outside of the FAI's jurisdiction will do no harm to their credibility long term, losing the ability to select from all sections of the community in NI would do untold damage to the IFA.
Depending on the amount of bile this post attracts, this is probably my first & last on this board/thread.
You are not on OWC now, you are welcome, and thats a fair post. we wont come on saying something like "grow a pair of balls will ye" or use such a terms as "northern prod" etc, as i noticed to me at least a term of the same emotional effect was used to describe a poster on your site from ROI.Quote:
Depending on the amount of bile this post attracts, this is probably my first & last on this board/thread.
EG, in fairness your second last post was a very fair post and for once I couldn't sense any hidden subtext of bitterness. On that fair play.
Why on earth would your post attract any amount of bile? Or, as I've seen one poster on the OWC's mirror thread, have you come here to feel oppressed?Quote:
Depending on the amount of bile this post attracts, this is probably my first & last on this board/thread.
The holder of an Irish passport is a de facto Irish national, citizenship is the means by which FIFA test eligibility, QED. We don't hand out passports/citizenship willy-nilly [anymore], you know.
I'm glad you read us ;) It's just a few of the posts I've read on this thread aren't exactly on topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by eelmonster
FIFA test eligibility based on whether the player -Quote:
The holder of an Irish passport is a de facto Irish national, citizenship is the means by which FIFA test eligibility, QED.
1) Born in the country
2) Lives in the country for a period of at least 2 years
3) parents/grandparents born in country.
The extra-territorial decree by the Republic on what it thinks an Irish citizen would appear to be irrelevant to the above straightforward rules. As I said there is a lot for OWC to lose in all of this, less so for the FAI.
ps O'Shea don't confuse passion for hatred!!!!
Fhtb what are your own views on this matter?
I believe you are one of those unique individuals who were born and bred in the south yet support NI so I think we would find your opinion illuminating on this subject?
How about the more likely scenario -Perhaps not questionable Irishness' - perhaps it is as both Darron and his parents say it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I detect a reluctance to accept that it is possible for a young footballer to be fully Irish. A reluctance to accept the value of what is included in the GFA on the nationality issue.
FIFA have determined based on years of experience that young kids such as Darron should not be tied to a country even if they appeared happy at the age of 16 to do so. Who knows how happy he was, maybe he realised at 17 that he was not so happy.Quote:
(even if he seemed happy enough to play for us as a youth).
FIFA allow a young player plenty of time, up to the age of 21 before making a final decision.
There would be no outcry because no one would play for england. EG you really have no idea of our mindset at all. I admire you for your efforts at interaction but you just don't get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
:D Simple enough really - I believe the 3 basic rules should be adhered to.Quote:
Fhtb what are your own views on this matter?
I believe you are one of those unique individuals who were born and bred in the south yet support NI so I think we would find your opinion illuminating on this subject?
btw - i qualify to support NI via the 2nd rule... :rolleyes:
He is not allowed to change now. However if FIFA rule (they have not ruled on this) that he is ineligible then he would be allowed to declare for NI if he wanted to.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I don't understand how Maik Taylor qualifies under the new rules.
He was born in Germany, holds a British passport however he has not lived in NI for 2 years, nor has a parent or grandparent born in NI.
He qualifies for NI because he qualified under the old rules. However had he not played International football before now I can't see how he could now declare for NI.
You support NI because you lived there for 2 or more years?Quote:
Originally Posted by fhtb
I thought it would be have been because of something more meaningful or substantial.
On what specific rule or precedent are you basing this?Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
sorry i thought you were refering to the dryer machinations. You can read much more of this on owc but basically if NI didn't exist I wouldn't feel Irish. I like the place so much/needed to get a job/an education, I moved there. Quite a few in my position did and do the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 7
Well that all sounds a bit odd but fair enough.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by fhtb
But to be fair you could hardly have any complaints then about the likes of Darron Gibson wanting to play for ROI.
I understand where he's coming from (up to a point).Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 7
But, the issue is about FIFA eligibility not the whims of a few border hoppers like me or him.
I might've asked you this over on OWC a good while back FHTB but ...does this mean that in the event you were good and able enough to play football professionally you'd happily resign yourself to playing for ROI? ...leaving your two year residency aside now as we can assume you wouldn't get called up if it was an IL side you were playing for?Quote:
Originally Posted by fhtb
I'm a realist. I accept there's a border - if FIFA's rules prevented me playing for OWC, so be it. But you'se would be getting a great asset mind, so i'd shut up about this whole thing if I were the FAI :cool:
>>>Originally Posted by gspain
He is not allowed to change now. However if FIFA rule (they have not ruled on this) that he is ineligible then he would be allowed to declare for NI if he wanted to.>>>>>>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Basic natural justice. If FIFA rule he is not eligible to play for us he cannot be tied to us for International football. He would then be eligible for NI.
Nor fortunatly is it based on IFA perceptions of what FIFA statutes are about.Quote:
Originally Posted by fhtb
It is about FIFA statutes protecting the right of footballers in choosing the country that gives them automatic citizenship. Cast in stone.
Where did you dig that up from:)Quote:
Originally Posted by gspain
I asked on what FIFA statute is that based on or is there a precedent that you can refer to.
I can hardly quote your idea of what natural justice is.
I think what GSpain is saying is that if FIFA rule that he cannot play for the Republic of Ireland it therefore means that he should play for Northern Ireland and they cannot also rule that he cannot play for Northern IReland as he already played for the Republic of Ireland.
That is why they are not going to rule on it at all.
Then residency rules okay, he can play for England :)
Although Gspain's reasoning is valid enough (imo), it doesn't actually need "natural justice" to support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
In this whole issue, the one single certainty which should not be overlooked is that Gibson was unquestionably eligible for NI.
Of course, if his switch to the ROI is confirmed by FIFA, then he is now tied in. However, if FIFA eventually determine that he should not have been told he was eligible for ROI, it is still open to the player to pursue an international career with NI (should he choose).
There was a precedent a wee while back whereby Brian McLean had represented Scotland, his country of birth, as a youth player. He then wanted to represent NI, his parents/grandparents(?) birthplace.
Due to a typical screw-up by the IFA, they omitted to register his switch during an amnesty period for over-21's. FIFA therefore determined he should not subsequently have been allowed to represent NI. He is still eligible for Scotland, however. (Though whether they will ever pick him is highly unlikely, as it happens)
I don't know what part of this people do not get
a letter from Heinz Tannler, Director of FIFA's Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of their General Legal department stated 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'."
Sent to the IFA on OCT 2006.
in reference to the present situation of Irish citizens born in the North declaring for Ireland
This mythical waiting for a FIFA ruling,
its like they are all Waiting for Godot
And he'll have no need to get a British Passport, either, just permission from Sir Alex.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
So he's buggered on that one, as well...;)