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What round you enter is based on countries rankings, and how teams qualified for europe (cup winners, league placings etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Seedings within rounds are based on club rankings (of which the country ranking is a part of)
Dodge gave you the short answer. If you wanted something more specific.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
We can take this years Access List 2009/2010 Finland are 30th spot.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uef...id=788326.html
If there is no change in the format, 30th spot is one place short of one of the Europa League reps. landing a 3rd. round qualifying place. 'CW' will be the FAI Cup Winners, if the LoI champions win the double then the 'CW' place reverts to the League table and the runners-up in the league will take 'CW'. The FAI cup runners-up still qualify for the Europa League but come in as N3.
A small thing like the Europa League champions of 2009/10 qualifying for the Champions league in 2010/2011 and not taking up their EL place as holders could be enough to push the LoI CW into the qualifying 3rd Round.
(Credit holidaysong amongst others he helped me out with that this season, as I understand Derry City got a EL q2 place because of a change above them and then their own coefficient got them seeding for q2 round.
UEFA use the tecnical term 'Knock-on effect' for this senario.)
I think its great the huge leaps LoI have made up the table and have tried to maximise their position. 40th, 35th, 35th and next year 30th is the sequence of rankings. Big step, consolidation, big step normal development. And because every result is calculated (albeit partial points for early rounds) I trust the measurent over the five year period.
For the 30th spot, clubs have to thank Shelbourne and Bohemian and Longford Town and Cork City and Derry City and Drogheda United and St. Patrick's Athletic. Maybe the small number over five years is a clue to the success aswell.
Up to 29th placed - well done St Pats
excellent stuff. pity bohs and sligo couldnt have brought it higher ...Quote:
Originally Posted by swinfordfc
True, but it has been a very difficult year & yet we have gained 1.25 points (5points/4teams) - this equates well with the year we just lost - 1.333 points (4points/3teams) & we still have at least 2 games to go - it's better than most of us would have hoped for 2 months agoQuote:
Originally Posted by Martinho II
btw you all know that how many teams each country has, which rounds they enter - that has already been determined for next season (2010/11) if LOI teams score a load of points it will be season after next (ie 2011/12) before we see changes in the rounds we enter. . Points scored by teams (ie for deciding seeding within rounds) will count next season however - lets hope Pats qualify (looks like they may need to win FAI Cup though)
Ha good oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
Thanks, had no idea about any of that:rolleyes::rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Soprano
Could some one calculate the Irish Leagues for me................. :embarrasse: :D
At a guess, very close to zero....... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
website hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
NI 49th place with 1.624pts and earned a hefty 0.125pts this year
I've just seen the graphs of rankings that are on the site.
In 1993 there were some "new" countries added with the break-up of Yugoslavia and Soviet Union. Before this there were 33 teams - Northern Ireland were 30th and Ireland 31st. The only leagues below us were Luxembourg and Malta.
There are now 20 more teams than there were and provisionally for 2010 we're up to 29th while Northern Ireland are 49th with Luxembourg and Malta still below them as well as San Marino and Andorra.
Ireland's highest ever ranking was 24th out of 33rd countries - we were last that high in 1985.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JC_GUFC
"1985" is really 1983.
The Dubs took over after that and everything went pear-shaped.
Northern Ireland strenghtend their lead with wins over shamrock rovers and 1:1 or 0:0 results in the Cup-Winners-Cup versus Dynamo Dresden ( and company). The Irish League showed the LoI the route out.
But it's a very shallow ramp.
In 1993-94 LoI were losing to Tavirya (never spelt like that with Irish sources) Simferipol [Of both The Crimea and The Ukraine] in the preliminary round of the Champions League.(Shels were unlucky, they had 3 good chances in the first ten minutes in Dublin including one that rolled along the goal-line before being cleared.)
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl...=46/index.html
Glentoran were in the First Round competing against Olympique Marseilles.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl...=47/index.html
OM eventually won out and went on to win the competition.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl/history/index.html
I have no sympathy for posters that attempt to use UEFA/Co-Efficient history to try to malign Irish League football. The evidence is the reverse.
At present the LoI is above Hungary of the '1980's/1990's target leagues' that LoI supporters would have wanted to emulate. Iceland wasn't on our radar until they stuffed us 3-0 and 3-0. We had to aknowledge them then.
I'm not sure what your point is here HarpoJoyce.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce
The evidence shows that the IL is weaker than the LOI, and weaker than almost every other league in Europe. Are you stating that this isn't the case ?
Whatever happened in the 1980's isn't relevant, and isn't evidence - it's history.
Why don't you re-read the post I quoted.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
NI gets mentioned alot. The UEFA co-efficent is consistent enough that it is used as a continous line through the European history of many different leagues. You are unlucky, the table doesn't lie.
I agree that this is History. It's also evidence, plus the anecdotal individual match stuff.
What comes around goes around. Really wasn't that long ago the LOI where behind the ILQuote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Football has irrevocably changed in the last twenty years. Therefore it is unlikely that what comes around will go around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
That's pretty amazing when you think of it. LoI teams are getting to play bigger and bigger teams each year and not performing badly, although pretty defensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce
I think you've totally misunderstood me Harpo.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce
I was pointing out the Irish League rankings because there are Irish League fans who read this forum - and most League of Ireland fans would have some bit of interest in the league.
It does show how we've moved in different directions since then but that wasn't the point I was making.
To be fair to the Irish League clubs they got very tough draws. Odense hammered Pat's a few years back and the Danish League is the best Scandinavian league at the moment so Linfield were unlikely to get anything. Glens had a tough draw and Crues performed as well as Sligo did.
Obviously being out of season for Distillery didn't help...
I've treated myself by re-reading what you wrote both now and before. And I'm still none the clearer.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce
My out-take of what you've said is 'stop with the superiority over the IL people, as 20 years ago they were better than us'.
If that is a broadly correct summary of your point, then my response is 'so what' ? Huddersfield Town used to be one of the most successful clubs in England, but that doesn't stop Man United and a host of other clubs having bragging rights over them in this day and age.
We don't live in the past.
:ball:
LOI isn't very healthy at the moment financially. Who's to say what will happen inside the next 5 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Maribor
Cork, Bohemians, Derry City, St Pats etc could all be forced to turn part-time (or worse, cease to exist)
The IFA president Kennedy has publicised his desire for summer football in the IL, which will leave our players fitter and sharper for Europe. Sponsorship, whilst still considerably less than the LOI IS increasing. Crowds at some clubs are going up steadily e.g. Coleraine and with recession a lot of players from England and Scotland are coming home again because clubs cannot afford to keep them on, so the level is gradually getting better.
Linfield have shown in the Setanta cup that we are not that far behind the top teams in the LOI (and we play makeshift teams as the Setanta cup is low down in our priorities), Glentoran have shown they are capable as well last year by getting to the final.
So yes I do believe what comes around goes around and the LOI and ILs gap will close in the future whether that's down to the LOI imploding or the IL getting better, or maybe a bit of both.
Time will tell.
Probably just as well, because Derry Citys history in the IL was very poor;):cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
:D You really think that just because that numpty thinks summer football would be good for us and it is his desire that it will happen? How many IL clubs have come out supporting his stance since he made those comments. The guy is lucky to know what day of the week it is!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
Luxembourg, Andorra, Malta and San Marino are the only European countries with national leagues ranked lower than the Irish League. All four of these leagues picked up more ranking points than the IL this season and are likely to be ranked higher than the IL in the not to distant future. That is to say, it is highly probable that the IL will be ranked 53rd out of the 53 national European leagues in the next 3-5 years, if not sooner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
We also got a vital half point for the co-eff with a home draw ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by JC_GUFC
As I said time will tell. Just like there's a decent chance that LOI as we know it will be completely different in the next 3-5 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I'm not overly concerned to be honest about European results. Our League perform badly, but I know the league as a whole will still be in existance in for the foreseable future. Whilst there are clubs who aren't exactly flush, none of them are close to extinction either.
Foot.ie's clairvoyant reveals all. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
Not sure how you can say that. Have the IL instigated a wage cap yet? I know clubs may be slightly better run than when they were paying silly money left, right and centre. But none of them sailing close to the wind?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
Ok there's easyjet now, but Portadown are still flying a player in every week.
And when the excrement hits the football supporter what happens? Put it down to the usual Derry whinging, if you want, but let's compare and contrast what happened when Derry City were called up on their taxes, with what happened Coleraine.
Just as well really - a poor history for a poor league..... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
Says more about your clubs history rather than the leagues does it not;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
There isn't a wage cap in effect in Irish League football. Coleraine very nearly went out of Business, like Cork nearly did. But Coleraine have appeared to have learnt their lesson, they have new people in charge and the club is run properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by A N Mouse
Portadown are AFAIK are in no financial danger, not flush with money by any means, but hardly sailing close to the wind either.
Glentoran I'd say are the club who are closest club to having real problems but they are taking steps to fix that problem.
In comparison to the LOI, the Irish League is fairly healthy finacially.
Indeed. It really started going down hill after we left it.... :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruce
The 0.125 earned by Derry tonight brings us up to 1.375 for the year so far. We've passed the 1.333 mark which is what we lose for 5 years ago (which I really didn't think we'd do)..
Finland also got 0.125 tonight but with all their teams now out of Europe our (provisional) leapfrog over them in the rankings is now secure.
Just so we're clearQuote:
Originally Posted by holidaysong
Sligo - 0.5
Bohemians - 0.5
2nd Qualifying round
Pats - 1.5
Derry - 1.5
3rd Qualifying round
Pats - 1
Derry - 0.5
1.375
Decent year so far. If pats can manage a draw or even two it starts to look very good. Especially as it's a 4 team score compared to the old 3 team score. It's probably a bg ask to expect 4 Irish teams to do very well in Europe every year. A lot of the experience tends to be at 2/3 clubs.
Still, as the standard rises, we're definitely getting closer. Especially considering that it's not exaclty a great year for the league in a number of other ways.
That's great, I'm very happy, but if you respond to my celebration of a Pats European victory again with the words "It's great for the co-efficient", I should not have to be held responsible for my actions. :D It's not human!Quote:
Originally Posted by holidaysong
Should be higher. We let the side down. Looking back we should have taken them.
Definately, we should have beaten them out the gate in the Showgrounds on the balance of play and chances, especially in the first half. Such a shame we couldn't progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by redobit
OK, two co-efficient related questions:
This page referenced in the Champions League thread says that the champions of the top 12 countries (countries rated 1 - 12) get straight into the group, but I cannot for the life of me understand who gets into the 4th qualifying round (the play-offs). I get that two third-placed teams and three fourth placed teams and all that... but to put it simply, fill in the question marks:
"The champions of the countries rated 13 - ?? get an automatic place in the play-offs."
---
Question number two - am I right in saying that, theoretically if the champions of a country NEVER qualify for the Champions League as they NEVER manage to win a qualifying round, they could still win an automatic place the following year because the second placed/third placed/cup winners gain so many co-eff points in the Europa League that it pushes the country into twelfth place?
No champions get an automatic place in that round. They all have to get through the previous round.Quote:
Originally Posted by ped_ped
It's possible. I don't know if a country has got an automatic group stage spot before a team qualified though.Quote:
Question number two - am I right in saying that, theoretically if the champions of a country NEVER qualify for the Champions League as they NEVER manage to win a qualifying round, they could still win an automatic place the following year because the second placed/third placed/cup winners gain so many co-eff points in the Europa League that it pushes the country into twelfth place?
So Wisła Kraków must play through two qualifying rounds after winning the Ekstraklasse... yet fourth-placed Arsenal must only play one tie after finishing 18 points off the mark... so much for the UEFA 'Champion's League,' eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
That point has been made for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by ped_ped
In fairness though, the top team in Poland are probably no better than Arsenal, so the idea from UEFA's perspective is to allow more in from the better leagues to take account of the difference in quality.
The Champions League is all about stopping Europes top clubs from running off and setting up the proverbial European Super League, and the price that's paid for footballing unity is the likes of Arsenal getting parachuted into the CL at the stage just before the groups. Footballling politics is the art of the possible.