Shelbourne FC Demoted to First Division - All Purpose Thread

its not bohs, but you did it by analogy, of bringing in supporting the little man in the corner shop, and then throwing the capatlist analogy of enron in there. thats what gets my goat, you having to throw in irrelevant analogies to your ideoligies( idioligies ) when they are of no importance to the issue at hand.

I am a well balanced individual. I have a chip on both shoulders :D

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And ratehr than see the danger the man presented, Shels fans were delighted to have him as Mr Shelbourne. How lonbg have people on here and else well been telling you that Ollie Byrne is a liability, and was unhelathy for your club ? How many times have fans of other clubs pointed out that Shel's financial position was completely untenable ? And in return, how often did you and other Shels fans brush off such comments as mere jealousy, constantly singing Ollie's praises - 'He's saved us before, I have faith in Ollie to do it again'. Well Gareth - you can tell from the festering pile of sh!t currently smothering Tolka that the chickens have finally come home to rest en masse....

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ok so how would you get rid of him, assuming here the fans didnt have the money to buy him out?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

its not bohs, but you did it by analogy, of bringing in supporting the little man in the corner shop, and then throwing the capatlist analogy of enron in there. thats what gets my goat, you having to throw in irrelevant analogies to your ideoligies( idioligies ) when they are of no importance to the issue at hand.

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Its not irelevant. Shels achieved great success through fraud and are now reaping what they sewed.
Much like Enron.

PS. I have no interest in your goat.

Hope shels dont go to the wall as it is bad publicity for the league to have such tradition go.

But I have no sympathy for a club that let a convicted criminal run it into the ground. Relegation to the graveyard should be the solution and I'm glad to see a gentleman like Finbarr Flood restore some class to a club that has been lacking it for a long time.

Someone else mentioned CHF here. They deserved no goodwill at the time of their death simply because they were a franchise, a joke that should have never been foisted on us. No comparison.

Limerick 37 are a welcome replacement for the Rathbane outfit and a genuine football man like Mick Wallace could be a fine advertisment for the league.

KOH

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PS. I have no interest in your goat.

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i was going to share its milk with the village, and then make it government property, are you sure about that ;) :D

Well we covered this already, but the shels fans are much like the 20,000 enron locals who got screwed by a few powerful people. I thought that analogy was obvioius from above!

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

but the shels fans are much like the 20,000 enron locals who got screwed by a few powerful people.

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I agree but we've been warning them about it for years and they simply laughed at us and said look how rich we are, look at how successful we are you peasants. Or words to that effect.

Gareth, I'm still not really sure of the difference between your situation and the Rovers fans. I mean they were in the same position - a club owned/ in debt to property sharks, club sitting on a potentially valuable asset, club on the verge of bankruptancy. Maybe the fans would've been in more of a position of strength if they had fought the regime instead of proping it up?

I do have sympathy for some of the shels fans, unfortuantely they've been defined by Ollie Byrne and those fans that brought his lines hook, line and sinker over the years while all around were saying it wasn't sustainable. They certainly weren't the only club, (my avatar is another club that followed that well trodden path), but they were also largely responsible for the crazy wage inflation in the league as other clubs struggled to remain competitive.

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Originally Posted by brendy_éire

[I]Setanta Cup Regulations 2007:
Entry Process
The Tournament shall be on invitational basis only and invitations shall be issued by
both Associations to four clubs under their jurisdiction taking into account the following sporting criteria listed in order of priority:

Clubs under the jurisdiction of the FAI:
· 2006 season Premier Division League championship winners.
· 2006 season FAI Cup winners. In the event of a club winning the Premier Division League championship and the FAI Cup, then the runner-up club in the FAI Cup shall be invited.
· 2006 season League Cup winners.
· 2006 season Premier Division League championship runners-up.

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Where did you find that? The bit in bold seems different that seen previously... :confused:

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I agree but we've been warning them about it for years and they simply laughed at us and said look how rich we are, look at how successful we are you peasants. Or words to that effect.

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DCFCSTEVE usually takes a good 20 mins to word and correct the grammar and spelling in his responses, I respond straight away without giving much thought, but I have asked him that question previously when I was also responding to your post about flaming. so what would you have proposed? I am not in the know of how you could do this and I would like to see how one ( or many ) would/could?

Paul_oshea - Your Limerick comparison isn't right, as Limerick 37 are backed by the majority of football people in Limerick from what I can see, and Limerick FC only has the support of one man. To use that as a stick to beat the league does show a fair bit of ignorance to the facts

The shels fans are not like enron workers, as they've been told for years that their club wasn't sustainable but continued to buy in, enron workers were consistently told how great enron was.

Part of what defines football fans imo is who they hate. Some here hate Shels. I don't see this as wrong or surprising or in anyway disappointing, even as someone who hopes they do survive, hopefully as a fans run club (something football world wide needs more of).

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Paul_oshea - Your Limerick comparison isn't right, as Limerick 37 are backed by the majority of football people in Limerick from what I can see, and Limerick FC only has the support of one man. To use that as a stick to beat the league does show a fair bit of ignorance to the facts

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Note, in my post i used "for whatever reasons", obviouslly i was trying to point out one team should be there, I wasn't saying which one ;). its how people not involved will see it, that "are ignorant to the facts", such as myself I spose, I have only spoken to one fella and read whats been on here so I dont know, fair enough!

not enron workers, small town enron investors. anyhow again that doesn't really matter too much.

I read your last post after I had posted and I have to agree with this point:
". Maybe the fans would've been in more of a position of strength if they had fought the regime instead of proping it up?"

If that were the case, then my previous question is irrelevant as there was NOBODY there to do what dcfcsteve was proposing.

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Originally Posted by Macy

hopefully as a fans run club (something football world wide needs more of).

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If that happened I would say fair play to them and I wouldn't mind them surviving (once it took them a few years to recover). Can't see it happening as there doesn't seem to be the will. I'm also not sure if the Schooligans junior cert business studies will prepare them for running a major football club ;)
Paul, what people were proposing was that they do what the rovers fans did and take over the club as above. Which reminds me of another example of EL good will. Rovers, our fiercest rivals had a battle on their hands against the GAA to secure their home in Tallaght. More or less everyone including Bohs fans supported them. If we were just being small minded and petty we'd have been supporting the GAA.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

When these people see ( who your clubs need to be attracting ) the "best club in the EL" folding, it will confirm in their minds how badly run and sh1te the league and standard of football really is!!!

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how do you equate the badly run part with the "standard of football"

players dont run clubs - they are of a standard which is already quantifiable by objective measurements via performance in UEFA competition and the increased fees that their services command. I take your point in the last paragraph - all bar the last 6 words - which is not connected and related.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Gareth, I'm still not really sure of the difference between your situation and the Rovers fans. I mean they were in the same position - a club owned/ in debt to property sharks, club sitting on a potentially valuable asset, club on the verge of bankruptancy. Maybe the fans would've been in more of a position of strength if they had fought the regime instead of proping it up?

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That sums it up for me. I don't want Shels to go to the wall but the fans sat back and watched Ollie lie and cheat his way to the top and did nothing.

Why didn't you do something about it? It truly baffles me and I'm left with very little sympathy for you.

Someone on Shelsweb even berated me when I suggested that you should have demanded the club off Ollie. That attitude explains why you're fooked.

To put it simply, when the crap hit the fan at Rovers I and countless others were incandescent with rage and we used that rage to make positive changes. I've seen no anger from Shels fans. You made your bed....

KOH

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Originally Posted by Macy

Gareth, I'm still not really sure of the difference between your situation and the Rovers fans. I mean they were in the same position - a club owned/ in debt to property sharks, club sitting on a potentially valuable asset, club on the verge of bankruptancy. Maybe the fans would've been in more of a position of strength if they had fought the regime instead of proping it up?

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The 400C was set up to build up Rovers and make the club successful again.

When it became clear that the old regime under Magoo was raiding the 400C coffers to pay for day-to-day expenses instead of doing their job properly and creating normal revenue - the 400C first withdrew their cooperation with the Rovers board - and then changed the rules to ensure that Magoo couldn't get his hands on the 400C money anymore.

That's when Rovers starting turning the corner.

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how do you equate the badly run part with the "standard of football"

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I didn't think I had to explain everypost in detail, I thought people were astute enough to read and understand what I was saying. If you were to ask the average soccer supporterer in ireland ( that doesnt attend EL matches ) that would be what they would say about the EL. that given along with the other 2 things they would probably say directly relates to seeing shels folding!! Mr pedant :D As I say I dont need to think about my posts for 10 or 15 mins before I reply.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I didn't think I had to explain everypost in detail, I thought people were astute enough to read and understand what I was saying. If you were to ask the average soccer supporterer in ireland ( that doesnt attend EL matches ) that would be what they would say about the EL.

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look, i'm pulling you up here, because you are talking fluent arce.
The standard of football played is in no way connected with the issue of how Ollie Byrne ran SFC into debt and destruction. The financial strategy is not connected to the football issue - if anything it led to the creation of the greatest pool of full time players available to one Irish club - thereby increasing the footballing standard.

Now you've made a demonstrably incorrect point here. So lose the smart alec tone it just paints you in an even more ignorant light.

I think the vast majority of eL fans here want Shels to survive. Theres obviously some dublin rivalry but thats to be expected.

The main reason Shels have & were hated is Ollie Byrne. Everything he did & said encouraged others to hate him. I remember when groups of eL fans from the JW message board went to Shels european games but then Ollie p!ssed on the goodwill & most stopped going...

It now looks like he has destroyed Shels as evidenced by the completely realistic way Finbar Flood has run the club since he took over.

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Originally Posted by pete

I remember when groups of eL fans from the JW message board went to Shels european games but then Ollie p!ssed on the goodwill & most stopped going...

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Yep, I was that soldier

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Originally Posted by pete

It now looks like he has destroyed Shels as evidenced by the completely realistic way Finbar Flood has run the club since he took over.

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Finbar was Shels chairman until last March, so he's hardly blameless in the whole mess.

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look, i'm pulling you up here, because you are talking fluent arce.
The standard of football played is in no way connected with the issue of how Ollie Byrne ran SFC into debt and destruction. The financial strategy is not connected to the football issue - if anything it led to the creation of the greatest pool of full time players available to one Irish club - thereby increasing the footballing standard.

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i never said it did, are you really that ignorant that you cna't understand what i am saying, to the outside circles of the EL, those average soccer supporters supporting english teams, that is what they beleive of EL soccer so when they see the "best" club in EL going down, what do you think they will think? That is what I am getting at, I never once tried to directly infer that the "crap" standard of football and ollie byrne running shels were directly related!!! come on wws, that wumin doesnt work with me, your points are never valid to what I am trying to get across either because:
a) you dont understand what I am trying to say
or
b) you dont know how to respond in any informed way and therefore pull out a phrase and take it completely out of context to the point a( the ) post was achieving to make. End of please leave it there.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

so when they see the "best" club in EL going down, what do you think they will think?

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They will think that Ollie Byrne should never have been let near Shels, because he wouldn't even be capable of running a stall on Moore Street.

And they'll be right.

"When these people see ( who your clubs need to be attracting ) the "best club in the EL" folding, it will confirm in their minds how badly run and sh1te the league and standard of football really is!!!"

best club folds - confirms in their minds how sh1te the standard of football really is

eh no - it doesnt

incorrect point

STOP TALKING COMPLETE AND UTTER SH1TE

and crying "wumming" - the get out clause of anyone pulled up on talking sh1te

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

ok so how would you get rid of him, assuming here the fans didnt have the money to buy him out?

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Firstly - unfortunatelty he's doing a fairly good job of it himself....

Secondly - does anyone honestly thing Ollie Byrne will return to overall control of Shelbourne FC after all that's unfolded ? I know their fans and creditors are stupid, but really - that stupid....?!?! :eek:

Thirdly - a football club does not exist without fans. Ollie's time and financial investment in Shelbourne would turn to dust without the supporters. The supporters should therefore get organsied, create some strength and use it to twist Ollie's arm. They don't even have to get all apocalyptic from the start on this. Begin by 'passive resistance' that wouldn't damage the team's perdformances in the shorrt-term :

- Withdraw voluntary stewards, programme sellers, half-time draw sellers etc
- Refuse to buy, sell or write for the programme or work in the club shop;
- Refuse to buy merchandise or display banners/flags at games etc etc.

All very minor actions that - if a club saw them starting to be implemented - would provide a real matchday headache, make them realise who really has the power, and make them concerned about what could happen next ! Then make it clear that that is only Stage 1 of an ongoing campaign, with later stages escalating a boycott of games, protests, media campaigns etc if Ollie doesn't agree to meet the supporter's reps to talk about an honourable way to reduce his involvement.

Give yourself some strength, display that strength, make it clear that there is worse to come, and then offer the target of your efforts an honourable way out of the mess before it gets any worse. This isn't rocket science, and in its early stages is very easy to do without genuinely damaging the club. I can't believe things like this seem so difficult for people to come up with...! :confused:

As for the money to buy him out - Shelbourne is worth less than absolutely fcuk all ! It's allegedly €10m in debt !!! The fans wouldn't need a penny to 'buy Ollie out' - they'd be doing him a favour. If their debts are anywhere near what media reports suggest, then there is absolutely no way Shels can trade out of such a situation this side of the next century. They will inevitably at some stage have to do a Rovers - go into administration, cut a cheap deal with their creditors/the revenue, and then reform as a legally separate entity under the control of the fans this time. But do Shels have the depth, passion and ability of support to do that......? :confused:

Brilliant post Steve.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

PS. I have no interest in your goat.

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I'm in the market for a goat.....!

I'll give you 20 shekels.....

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I'm in the market for a goat.....!

I'll give you 20 shekels.....

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And what do you plan to do with this self same goat???

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Originally Posted by Gareth

I'm pretty disappointed.

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Isn't that a bit of an understatement? :confused:

Shels are effectively gone. There's no way they can clear €12 million of debt now. Playing lower division football is no help either, as there is no money to be made on the desert island. They're the third club to go in roughly 6 months. The only thing they can do now is close up shop, take a couple of steps back, reform the club, and start from scratch in the A league in a couple of years time. With the astronomical debt, no players, and no manager, there's no way they will play any football this year.

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Originally Posted by Magicme

And what do you plan to do with this self same goat???

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If Derry get you lot in the league cup, they're going to bring the goat along with a J€alou$? banner.

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Originally Posted by pete

The main reason Shels have & were hated is Ollie Byrne. Everything he did & said encouraged others to hate him. I remember when groups of eL fans from the JW message board went to Shels european games but then Ollie p!ssed on the goodwill & most stopped going...

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And not just that long ago ! I remember looking into the cost of the Eurostar from London to Lille and hotels for Shels's UEFA Cup game after they lost to Deportivo in the CL in 2004...... :o

Nothing I or a lot of other posters wouldn't do for any other EL club though. Reitoir and myself headed up to mid-Wales to watch that Longford UEFA Cup match against Carmarthen 2 years back. But I wouldn't do that for Shels under their current mainfestation (even though some of their fans were good enough to come and support us against Gretna....).

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

If Derry get you lot in the league cup, they're going to bring the goat along with a J€alou$? banner.

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But our cows are better!!!

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Originally Posted by pete

Where did you find that? The bit in bold seems different that seen previously... :confused:

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The bit in bold in very interesting , it seems that Pats are getting invited because Setanta don't want their cameras to cross the shannon and fat Pat prefers the chippers around richmond park. The setanta money will have an effect on club budgets hence affecting squads for this season which will influence the final placings at the end of the season so a lot more than dodgy invites at stake here , if i wasn't getting setanta for free I would cancel my subscription...

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Originally Posted by GuisaSaigon

The league needs well run clubs not... gangsters with dodgy accountants.

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LOL. :D

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

- Withdraw voluntary stewards, programme sellers, half-time draw sellers etc
- Refuse to buy, sell or write for the programme or work in the club shop;
- Refuse to buy merchandise or display banners/flags at games etc etc.

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Good post Steve, the bit I've quoted is the very least they should have done last season. When I heard that the SSDG were going bankroll the Shels programme I knew there was no way they were ever going to dig themselves out this mess.

When Kilcoyne announced the sale of Milltown the supporters club, who had been responsible for the programme, immediately refused to do it anymore thus depriving the evil one of a few shekels. That's how militant we were 20 years ago and it took us nearly 20 years to learn that that alone wasn't enough.

KOH

the pungency of the gloating on this thread is nauseating. if the schadenfreude brigade really want to indulge their own sense of superiority over shelbourne and its fans, why not try some magnanimity? to sneer at them now for they having sneered at you then is just absurdly hypocritical.

for all its faults, and no doubt i'm ill-informed about many of them, i don't think a rational argument can be made that the disappearance of shelbourne would be good for football in ireland.

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Originally Posted by Magicme

But our cows are better!!!

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Only cuz your wimmin are so rough....!

:D

very good post steve alright, do you think though it was somewhat a cache 22, maybe naively somewhat, or backburner stuff, but these fans thought that by ensuring they were helping the club to pay for these players that were bringing them glory, which is what all supporters of a club aspire and hope for, they kept up doing all this work, not necessarily because they liked ollie, but they thought they were helping the club to stay at the top and pay for being at the top?
Just one other small point, if the supporters raised 10k and tried to buy ollie out, they would still be taking on 10mil euro debts, which they would have to prove they could pay for, along with the differnce the sale of the grounds.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Only cuz your wimmin are so rough....!

:D

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Didnt stop u wanting to see a pic of me in the jersey tho did it!!! :eek:

Freak! :D

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

That sums it up for me. I don't want Shels to go to the wall but the fans sat back and watched Ollie lie and cheat his way to the top and did nothing.

Why didn't you do something about it? It truly baffles me and I'm left with very little sympathy for you.

Someone on Shelsweb even berated me when I suggested that you should have demanded the club off Ollie. That attitude explains why you're fooked.

To put it simply, when the crap hit the fan at Rovers I and countless others were incandescent with rage and we used that rage to make positive changes. I've seen no anger from Shels fans. You made your bed....

KOH

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I think there is a few key differences between our situation and Rovers.

The big one is of course that Shels were so successful, it is very difficult to get fans excited about a potential takeover when the team is playing in their own stadium, and winning cups and leagues.

The “buried in the sand” quote comes up quite a lot, and there is truth in this, fans by their nature are greedy.

When they see their team get into the top three, they want them to push on and try and sign those players that will let them win the league, then when they win the league, they want to get the players that will push them further in Europe etc…etc…Fans get excited about skilful players, winning trophies and European trips, not from steady balance sheets

You ignore the jibs and the warnings from other fans, because you are winning!

Ollie probably did this too to some extent, as he was a fan, I think again there is a difference between Shels situation and Rovers because we were effectively run into the ground by a fan, not some property developer looking for a quick buck.

Ollie’s plans were stupid, idiotic, unreasonable, whatever…but despite this, in his own warped mind, I think he always thought what he was doing was for the good of Shelbourne even if it proved to be the exact opposite.

Football fans have often complained that they have had a businessman as opposed to a fan running their club, our problem was we had the opposite, the lesson to be learned is that the faith of a football club should never really be put in the hands of one man.

Also you have to consider the fact that Ollie was the man who brought the club from the brink of extinction to unparalleled success.

He really has been the cause and the solution to all of Shelbourne’s problems for many years now, looks like he is finally lost his balancing act.

But again, were we Shelbourne fans blind? I suppose we were.

I wonder what the attitude of other fans will be if Drogheda go to the wall in a few years, and indeed how Drogheda fans feel about all this. They are enjoying great success at the moment, and similar questions are being asked of them as were asked about us.

But again, when your winning on the pitch, it is easy to take the warnings of other as mere jealousy.

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Only cuz your wimmin are so rough....!

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if a =b and a= c then b=c

their women are cows!!!! 8:

TheOwl that is what I pointed out to steve in my post above. That is a very very good post, one of the most honest and accurate posts I have ever read on here. POTY for sure! :)

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

the bit I've quoted is the very least they should have done last season

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Well the web team recently announced their departure. And the programme failed to be published several times last season. And the stewarding descended into chaos towards the end of the season. Not sure if that's all a sign of protest or incompetence.

Shels' supporters biggest mistake was to allow themselves to be mouthpieces for Ollie's propaganda. Even when Magoo still had a firm hold of Rovers, nobody was afraid to speak up against him. Quite apart from the public meetings where he regularly got a roasting, he just had to take a look at the Ultras forum to know EXACTLY what everyone thought of him.

Every time Ollie looked at the Shels forum up until last week, he could see that his bullying, bullsh!t and bluster were working.