All-Ireland League Thread

Here endeth the debate.

A phrase regarding a leopard and its spots comes to mind.

To dismiss a proposal based on the finances being hypothetical when the whole proposal is about getting theoretical support should finances be put in place just shows that you're always fighting a losing battle when it comes to some.

Further evidence of misleading information contained in the Derry City statement. "We have not agreed to jointly examine any new report"

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

A phrase regarding a leopard and its spots comes to mind.

To dismiss a proposal based on the finances being hypothetical when the whole proposal is about getting theoretical support should finances be put in place just shows that you're always fighting a losing battle when it comes to some.

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It was being dismissed since day one on much more the financials being hypothetical, but nearly on every aspect.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

A phrase regarding a leopard and its spots comes to mind.

To dismiss a proposal based on the finances being hypothetical when the whole proposal is about getting theoretical support should finances be put in place just shows that you're always fighting a losing battle when it comes to some.

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The one thing we can agree on (I hope) is that each Association/League is desperate for more money.

Therefore if Lucid come up with some actual hard cash, you could be damned sure that it would break the logjam.

But as this latest newspaper report shows, he's got nothing to offer except hot air.

A shame (imo), but there you go. If we can get through this virus problem, the IL is still in a reasonably good place to grow and develop - I'll leave it to better-informed LOI fans to assess where their league is at.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

It was being dismissed since day one on much more the financials being hypothetical, but nearly on every aspect.

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Well proposals do tend to by hypothetical by their very nature, there's no point proposing something that already exists

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The one thing we can agree on (I hope) is that each Association/League is desperate for more money.

Therefore if Lucid come up with some actual hard cash, you could be damned sure that it would break the logjam.

But as this latest newspaper report shows, he's got nothing to offer except hot air.

A shame (imo), but there you go. If we can get through this virus problem, the IL is still in a reasonably good place to grow and develop - I'll leave it to better-informed LOI fans to assess where their league is at.

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Here's the thing though to get money you need the backing of the associations. He's already said that he's got people saying get the associations to back it and we'll make an offer.

Say you're going to sky to get money off them for the TV rights this is how it'll go
"I want to start a new AIL and I'm willing to offer you first dibs on TV rights if you make an offer that helps make the idea viable"
"do you have the backing of the associations?"
"Not yet"
"Get their backing then get back to us we're interested but we can't allocate that kind of money without their backing"

That's how those meetings go. The IFA know that they just aren't interested in it and I think everyone and their mother can hazard a guess as to why that is

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Here's the thing though to get money you need the backing of the associations. He's already said that he's got people saying get the associations to back it and we'll make an offer.

Say you're going to sky to get money off them for the TV rights this is how it'll go
"I want to start a new AIL and I'm willing to offer you first dibs on TV rights if you make an offer that helps make the idea viable"
"do you have the backing of the associations?"
"Not yet"
"Get their backing then get back to us we're interested but we can't allocate that kind of money without their backing"

That's how those meetings go. The IFA know that they just aren't interested in it and I think everyone and their mother can hazard a guess as to why that is

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"If you can build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door"

In other words, if Lucid's proposal is such a sure-fire hit, then backers will come on board.

And if he has them on board, then the clubs and Associations will follow, since all are desperate for cash.

Time for Lucid to put up or shut up.

(Not misrepresenting the IFA would help him, too)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

"If you can build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door"

In other words, if Lucid's proposal is such a sure-fire hit, then backers will come on board.

And if he has them on board, then the clubs and Associations will follow, since all are desperate for cash.

Time for Lucid to put up or shut up.

(Not misrepresenting the IFA would help him, too)

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Backers would come on board for almost anything theoretical in football, but when you've to rely on the IFA working with the FAI, that's a fairly big obstacle to try overlook given the history.

Where on earth has he misrepresented the IFA?

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

Here endeth the debate.

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#UlsterSaysNo

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Here's the thing though to get money you need the backing of the associations.

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And that was his problem from the outset. He should have begun his conversation them to begin with. Rather he tried to work through one or two clubs to drive his idea.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

And that was his problem from the outset. He should have begun his conversation them to begin with. Rather he tried to work through one or two clubs to drive his idea.

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Because the IFA were always going to be stubborn about it so the only way to get to them was through pressure from the clubs. The FAI meanwhile had Delaney at the time so there was no point going to them.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

"If you can build a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door"

In other words, if Lucid's proposal is such a sure-fire hit, then backers will come on board.

And if he has them on board, then the clubs and Associations will follow, since all are desperate for cash.

Time for Lucid to put up or shut up.

(Not misrepresenting the IFA would help him, too)

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That mousetrap nonsense just wouldn't work in the face of politics in NI, which seeps into everything - including football.

Let's not forget that when the DUP were literally calling the shots within the UK Government they rejected the greatest economic mousetrap Northern Ireland could ever have - with a foot in both the UK and the EU. It would have created the real possibility of a major economic boom for NI, and probably strengthened its place in the Union too. But the rocket scientists in the DUP still rejected it, and have ended up with something considerably worse from their perspective instead. That's the sort of thinking which dominates pretty much every aspect of life in NI.

So Let's call a spade a spade here. There are some elements/individuals within NI football who want nothing to do with the south. Period. I have no idea what percentage that involves, or how influential those people are. But from fans to administrators and every level in between - it wouldn't matter if the mousetraps were gold feckin' plated. They'd still want nothing to do with them because it includes the south.

Ulster always says no.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Because the IFA were always going to be stubborn about it so the only way to get to them was through pressure from the clubs. The FAI meanwhile had Delaney at the time so there was no point going to them.

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There is a rational argument that, for their own narrow benefit, football associations shouldn't support anything which strengthens their clubs. Because stronger clubs means less power and influence for FAs. Everyone's seen what happened in England, where the FA there has been emasculated and effectively left to run everything except the senior club game.

Obviously a football association should want the best for its own clubs, but sadly not everyone thinks that way. Delaney was a machiavellian sh!t, and I have absolutely no doubt that he wanted to stop LOI clubs becoming more powerful as it would only be done at his expense. I've no idea if the IFA heads think like that (though I expect they're not that way minded).

An AIL would arguably strengthen certain clubs, and thereby shift the balance of power away from the blazers.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Because the IFA were always going to be stubborn about it so the only way to get to them was through pressure from the clubs. The FAI meanwhile had Delaney at the time so there was no point going to them.

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Why were the IFA always going to be stubborn about it? If anything the IFA have been more pro-active in working towards cross border competions and relationships in recent years. While in place, Delaney was also very open to such.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Backers would come on board for almost anything theoretical in football, but when you've to rely on the IFA working with the FAI, that's a fairly big obstacle to try overlook given the history.

Where on earth has he misrepresented the IFA?

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14th May 2020 DCFC Statement:
"We are informed that the IFA and the FAI have agreed to jointly examine the report." (post #261)

17th May 2020 IFA Statement:
"We have not agreed to jointly examine any report." (post #322)

If it's not Lucid, then someone's telling porkies.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

That mousetrap nonsense just wouldn't work in the face of politics in NI, which seeps into everything - including football.

Let's not forget that when the DUP were literally calling the shots within the UK Government they rejected the greatest economic mousetrap Northern Ireland could ever have - with a foot in both the UK and the EU. It would have created the real possibility of a major economic boom for NI, and probably strengthened its place in the Union too. But the rocket scientists in the DUP still rejected it, and have ended up with something considerably worse from their perspective instead. That's the sort of thinking which dominates pretty much every aspect of life in NI.

So Let's call a spade a spade here. There are some elements/individuals within NI football who want nothing to do with the south. Period. I have no idea what percentage that involves, or how influential those people are. But from fans to administrators and every level in between - it wouldn't matter if the mousetraps were gold feckin' plated. They'd still want nothing to do with them because it includes the south.

Ulster always says no.

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The DUP has sod-all to do with any of this.

Fact is, Lucid's proposals have been exposed as spin and hot-air.

Causing some people to deflect attention from this by pointing the finger elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

There is a rational argument that, for their own narrow benefit, football associations shouldn't support anything which strengthens their clubs. Because stronger clubs means less power and influence for FAs. Everyone's seen what happened in England, where the FA there has been emasculated and effectively left to run everything except the senior club game.
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The setting up of NIFL in many ways shows that the IFA do not necessarily fall into that category.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The DUP has sod-all to do with any of this.

Fact is, Lucid's proposals have been exposed as spin and hot-air.

Causing some people to deflect attention from this by pointing the finger elsewhere.

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The DUP reflect a certain view of the world amongst nordies. It's why they're the biggest party there.

Are you genuinely claiming that a) All opposition to an AIL in NI is 100% on footballing grounds, and nothing else?, and b) That if Lucid's plan did identify money, that opposition to the proposal would disappear?

Though we go round in circles on the last point, as without buy in there won't be confirmation of any money. #ChickenAndEgg

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

Why were the IFA always going to be stubborn about it? If anything the IFA have been more pro-active in working towards cross border competions and relationships in recent years. While in place, Delaney was also very open to such.

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Now, now Mr. P, we can't have you bringing facts into the debate, can we?

The Blaxnit Cup? - Never happened.

The Setanta Cup? Nope, that neither.

The Celtic Nations Cup? Never heard of it.

The Presidents Cup? Wha?

The Victory Shield? A fiction.

The joint IFA/FAI bid to host the 2023 UEFA U-21 Championships? Fake news!

https://www.irishfa.com/media/20726/u21-joint-bid.jpg

Photoshopped! (It was originally a picture of Delaney presenting a big cheque to his ex-wife, an ex-girlfriend and Emma English)

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

The setting up of NIFL in many ways shows that the IFA do not necessarily fall into that category.

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You're at it again, Mr. P.

We can't have facts and reason deflecting the likes of EatYerGreens from pointing out the solution to every problem that ever hit Irish football: "If in doubt, blame the DUP!"

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Well proposals do tend to by hypothetical by their very nature, there's no point proposing something that already exists

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I know we have had a similar discussion before, but for a new AIL proposal to fly, there needs to be less hypotheticals and more concrete substance. How that is attained I dont know but nothing is going to move forward until there is guarantee of a financial package that is too good to not to be seriously considered. Irrespective of European slots etc.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

I know we have had a similar discussion before, but for a new AIL proposal to fly, there needs to be less hypotheticals and more concrete substance. How that is attained I dont know but nothing is going to move forward until there is guarantee of a financial package that is too good to not to be seriously considered. Irrespective of European slots etc.

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No sane company is going to commit a proportion of its sponsorship budget to an idea without the backing of the associations involved.

The whole "finances aren't in place" is a cop out from the IFA considering going ahead whit it all is dependent on having the finances in place

But no sane association is going to back an idea unless they know there is definitely financial benefit to do so. So we get stuck between a rock and a hard place?

I dont see it as a cop out, I see it as needing to provide real incentive with no ifs or maybe's.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

But no sane association is going to back an idea unless they know there is definitely financial benefit to do so. So we get stuck between a rock and a hard place?

I dont see it as a cop out, I see it as needing to provide real incentive with no ifs or maybe's.

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Why wouldn't an association back it? If the finances don't materialise it doesn't happen, its that simple, there's absolutely nothing to lose in saying, yeah we'll be on board if the finances can be put in place

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Why wouldn't an association back it? If the finances don't materialise it doesn't happen, its that simple, there's absolutely nothing to lose in saying, yeah we'll be on board if the finances can be put in place

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In the paper today, the IFA President stated that the figures, "did not add up", so it is more than just if they materialise. And he is right, they don't.

And as for your sure "there's absolutely nothing to lose" comment, you do understand that you just can't turn off and on sponsorship and TV deals the likes of NIFL have already in place, the moving of when a season is played, clubs moving from part to full time, player contracts, etc.?

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

In the paper today, the IFA President stated that the figures, "did not add up", so it is more than just if they materialise. And he is right, they don't.

And as for your sure "there's absolutely nothing to lose" comment, you do understand that you just can't turn off and on sponsorship and TV deals the likes of NIFL have already in place, the moving of when a season is played, clubs moving from part to full time, player contracts, etc.?

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If the IFA actually engaged in the process they could easily set a cut off that suited them to have the finances in place. They could easily say "December 2020 is the deadline to have sufficient finances in place or it's not happening" instead of just throwing toys out of the pram.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

Here endeth the debate.

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No club should be forced to join, but at same time, no club should be allowed to influence others who wish to. The whole concept of the AIL doesn't need the support of all of the NI clubs, it just needs buy in from those who are ambitious enough to want to push on and improve the standards.

Cliftonville clearly are against the idea, and that's fine, no one should force them, if they are comfortable operating part time and playing at 3pm on a Saturday, maybe this new set up proposal doesn't suit them.

For others, going all full time, and having proper backing, a tv deal and games spread over Fri - Sun nights, might be the way forward. I`m aware of potential issues in NI playing Sunday, so they could focus on LOI participating clubs first.

So who are the clubs ? I looked at this earlier, and considered past 5 year record, Europe and national league, size of club, whether they operate full time, mostly full time, or part time and if they are into the AIL, apologies if I have missed any who are / are not into the AIL proposal. Also, I`m aware there is a proposal for LOI and IL to keep going and to move to KOI - King of the Island play off type, but here is my list, in ranking order.

1/ Dundalk
2/ Shamrock Rovers
3/ Cork City
4/ Derry City
5/ Linfield
6/ Bohs
7/ Crusaders
8/ St Pats
9/ Coleraine*
10/ Sligo Rovers
11/ Glentoran
12/ Waterford*
13/ Glenavon*
14/ LOI / IL play off

Current list has 8 LOI, 5 NI (Cliftonville not included) and one TBC for a play off, so could change, but I think these 14 are possibly fair ranking based on last 5 years.

In * is clubs who I am not sure are 100% into AIL, or who may be in the position to participate, also not sure was 14 the first option in the club formation, league.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

If the IFA actually engaged in the process they could easily set a cut off that suited them to have the finances in place. They could easily say "December 2020 is the deadline to have sufficient finances in place or it's not happening" instead of just throwing toys out of the pram.

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The IFA did meet with Lucid. They did not simply through the toys out of the pram. Lucid has been trailing his concept for a well over a year. It is not like he only appeared with his proposals I the last 6 months.

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Originally Posted by oriel

No club should be forced to join, but at same time, no club should be allowed to influence others who wish to. The whole concept of the AIL doesn't need the support of all of the NI clubs, it just needs buy in from those who are ambitious enough to want to push on and improve the standards.

Cliftonville clearly are against the idea, and that's fine, no one should force them, if they are comfortable operating part time and playing at 3pm on a Saturday, maybe this new set up proposal doesn't suit them.

For others, going all full time, and having proper backing, a tv deal and games spread over Fri - Sun nights, might be the way forward. I`m aware of potential issues in NI playing Sunday, so they could focus on LOI participating clubs first.

So who are the clubs ? I looked at this earlier, and considered past 5 year record, Europe and national league, size of club, whether they operate full time, mostly full time, or part time and if they are into the AIL, apologies if I have missed any who are / are not into the AIL proposal. Also, I`m aware there is a proposal for LOI and IL to keep going and to move to KOI - King of the Island play off type, but here is my list, in ranking order.

1/ Dundalk
2/ Shamrock Rovers
3/ Bohs
4/ Derry City
5/ Linfield
6/ Cork City
7/ Crusaders
8/ Coleraine*
9/ Glentoran
10/ St Pats
11/ Sligo Rovers
12/ Waterford*
13/ Glenavon*
14/ LOI / IL play off

Current list has 8 LOI, 5 NI (Cliftonville not included) and one TBC for a play off, so could change, but I think these 14 are possibly fair ranking based on last 5 years.

In * is clubs who I am not sure are 100% into AIL, or who may be in the position to participate, also not sure was 14 the first option in the club formation, league.

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You're mistaken. It needs a lot more to buy in than just a few clubs who want to join such a league. It needs the buy in of the IFA for starters, without that nothing can happen.

Btw, Coleraine are on the fence and their manager has come out against it. Glenavon are a no and Linfield, while interested, have only dipped their toe in the water imo.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

If the IFA actually engaged in the process they could easily set a cut off that suited them to have the finances in place. They could easily say "December 2020 is the deadline to have sufficient finances in place or it's not happening" instead of just throwing toys out of the pram.

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Isnt demanding a deadline for finances to be in place 'or its not happening' not a bit of throwing the toys out of the pram either way - setting deadlines, meet them or else? Covid aside, its kicking the can down the road; why not make the deadline say April 2021, concrete finances are in place if the NIFL and whatever LoI will be called after the new participation agreement is ratified and are happy to go. The burden of selling the concept with finances fully established lies with Lucid and co., not a Hail Mary that clubs need to take with a lets see what happens if the money materialises. I agree with Mr P on this one - everything needs to be set fully to maintain credibility be it with sponsors, broadcasters and clubs et al.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

You're mistaken. It needs a lot more to buy in than just a few clubs who want to join such a league. It needs the buy in of the IFA for starters, without that nothing can happen.

Btw, Coleraine are on the fence and their manager has come out against it. Glenavon are a no and Linfield, while interested, have only dipped their toe in the water imo.

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The NIFL has a lot more say than being vetoed completely by the IFA surely. The level of clout that the LoI hasnt got ...yet. European places can be used to hold clubs to ransom initially i suppose..

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

The NIFL has a lot more say than being vetoed completely by the IFA surely. The level of clout that the LoI hasnt got ...yet. European places can be used to hold clubs to ransom initially i suppose..

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You would be correct in saying that the NIFL would have a lot more sway and their clubs as members of the IFA would hold significant votes. There is little indication, bar a few vocal NIFL clubs, that there is a majority of Premiership clubs wishing to go with the proposals, let alone within the other NIFL leagues.

Personally, I would jump at the chance for an All Island League and for Cliftonville to be involved. However, I would only ever consider such if it actually stacked up. I'm long enough in the tooth to have seen several proposals down through the years. None have come close to give them more than passing consideration.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Isnt demanding a deadline for finances to be in place 'or its not happening' not a bit of throwing the toys out of the pram either way - setting deadlines, meet them or else? Covid aside, its kicking the can down the road; why not make the deadline say April 2021, concrete finances are in place if the NIFL and whatever LoI will be called after the new participation agreement is ratified and are happy to go. The burden of selling the concept with finances fully established lies with Lucid and co., not a Hail Mary that clubs need to take with a lets see what happens if the money materialises. I agree with Mr P on this one - everything needs to be set fully to maintain credibility be it with sponsors, broadcasters and clubs et al.

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Setting deadlines is a normal part of working on any project. Finding one part of it and basically saying no I want the chicken to come before the egg, isnt

The IFA are just trying to eat their cake and have it too. They don't like the idea of an AIL but they know if they come out and say it everyone knows why that is so they're playing the finance angle. If finances were actually the problem they would come out and say "we like the idea and will work with parties involved to investigate the level of interest from our members and the leagues financial viability" and they'd give written documentation to lucid that said that if x amount of financial support for the league was in place by a set date they'd be involved and the FAI would do the same. Lucid could then go to sponsors, TV providers, etc and say look I've everyone on board will you commit part of your budget to us.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Setting deadlines is a normal part of working on any project. Finding one part of it and basically saying no I want the chicken to come before the egg, isnt

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I disagree, and maybe the chicken does come befor the egg.... A company floats on the stock exchange, investors dont buy shares first and then look at cost and financial risks after.

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

The IFA are just trying to eat their cake and have it too. They don't like the idea of an AIL but they know if they come out and say it everyone knows why that is so they're playing the finance angle. If finances were actually the problem they would come out and say "we like the idea and will work with parties involved to investigate the level of interest from our members and the leagues financial viability" and they'd give written documentation to lucid that said that if x amount of financial support for the league was in place by a set date they'd be involved and the FAI would do the same. Lucid could then go to sponsors, TV providers, etc and say look I've everyone on board will you commit part of your budget to us.

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They probably dont like the idea, there is a historical and political context after all. Maybe they are just in to self preservation and fear that they could lose their own little power base. That is why concrete finances are needed in advance - to make clubs in particular, irrespective of the IFA, take notice and and start to think 'that money is too much not to be part of this'.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

They probably dont like the idea, there is a historical and political context after all. Maybe they are just in to self preservation and fear that they could lose their own little power base. That is why concrete finances are needed in advance - to make clubs in particular, irrespective of the IFA, take notice and and start to think 'that money is too much not to be part of this'.

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No company it going to commit part of their budget to an idea reliant on the IFA putting their bigotry aside without assurances they will.

Would cost the IFA nothing to give commitment to the idea, costs companies to commit money to it.

The IFA don't want an AIL and it has nothing to do with finances it's really that simple

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Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

The IFA are just trying to eat their cake and have it too. They don't like the idea of an AIL but they know if they come out and say it everyone knows why that is so they're playing the finance angle. If finances were actually the problem they would come out and say "we like the idea and will work with parties involved to investigate the level of interest from our members and the leagues financial viability" and they'd give written documentation to lucid that said that if x amount of financial support for the league was in place by a set date they'd be involved and the FAI would do the same. Lucid could then go to sponsors, TV providers, etc and say look I've everyone on board will you commit part of your budget to us.

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It must be remembered that Lucid has basically tabled 2 proposals. The first was a full blown AIL. The second was a glorified version of the Setanta Cup. Only a minority of NIFL Premiership clubs gave the AIL proposal any real support. Several said no, others just asked to be kept informed of developments. More meetings were held with clubs and as a result he took the AIL off the table and put forward his second proposal several weeks ago. Even pre-shutdown the clubs were aware of this new direction. Since then the final document was shared with the clubs and subsequently made public, despite just a short time earlier announcing that given the circumstances it was not the right time to do so. It seemed like a final throw of the dice. In all those weeks/months since the 2nd proposal became apparent, I am not aware of any NIFL clubs giving much more than lip service to it, let alone formally supporting it. I suspect it was much the same from LOI clubs.

So to just point to the IFA finding reasons to keep their ball, completely misrepresents the general/majority consensus of clubs, who after all is from where the core support was needed. Lucid made it clear from the outset, that only once the clubs had signed up to his proposal, would he then formally go to the marketplace for TV deals and sponsorship. The clubs had to jump first with no parachute supplied until after they had left the plane and even then there was no guarantee the parachute would be up to the job.

The whole thing appeared dead in the water. No one was talking about it nor was there any discussion amongst clubs about it. Only the Derry City prompted is to surface again. One wonders why it suddenly appeared. It was only their statement that caused the IFA President to be asked about it.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

I disagree, and maybe the chicken does come befor the egg.... A company floats on the stock exchange, investors dont buy shares first and then look at cost and financial risks after.

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Let's make it simple.
You're virgin media. You've a pot of 100 million in the TV rights budget.
Are you going to ring-fence 2 million of that for rights for a league when the league has no guarantee of the backing of one of the associations involved. That's before you get into the fact that association is the IFA and all the obstacles it being them brings to the table. You're simply not going to do that, it just won't be signed off at any business.

On the other hand what do the IFA have to lose at being involved in the idea? They can help dictate the pace it goes at, set targets and cut offs that suit them, etc, absolutely nothing to lose for them except the fact their league won't be governed from Belfast which as we know for them is a huge issue.