Why do Given and the back 4 mess about with the ball when we need to score. Where is the urgency?
So frustrating. The Scottish back 4 coped with crosses all day long (bar the corner). It's bog standard championship football they come across every bloody week.
Does Martin O'Neill not realise that you cannot keep giving the ball away (by hoofing it up the field) in Todays Football.
Even reasonable international players will make you have to work too hard to get it back and put you under too much pressure.
Martin O'Neill is playing too old a style of football for todays international oppositions.
I knew fully well we wouldn't get out of this group when it was announced.
We got the hardest possible qualification group and we are just incapable of beating teams on a par or of a higher quality than us.
It's only going to get worse from here.
We have to move on from Keane, Walters and Whelan now. It's probably the end for Hoolahan too. Possibly O'Shea.
Pinned in our own half
We basically need to win our remaining matches ie beat Germany and Poland, we certainly need to beat one
of them and hope Scotland loose both those matches. But they will get at least a point I expect so really we need to
wind both, I guess a win and a draw could do it is Scotland get a point.
Basically we need 3 points more from Poland and Germany than Scotland get.
Doesn't sound too tough does it?
Maybe the Scottish team might be flying over the Alps....no forget it.
I have no confidence in O'Neill or Keane being the forefront of the change we need.
We have to make a play for Mick McCarthy & Terry Connor.
We could look for someone like Lars Lagerback but I think McCarthy is the most pragmatic option.
hear hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Around 2008/9 football embarked on a big change. Although the club game is in the ascendancy these changes, apart from Barcelona just going crazy and really changing things, I first noticed these changes watching international tournament finals. Looks like these changes are over our manager's head. Primitive and ineffective. Overpaid sinecure. Paul Rowan was right in week one.
There's a section in the brilliant David Winner book on Dennis Bergkamp Stillness and Speed were Bergkamp starts talking about in Holland as a rule they put their players with the most technical ability in the middle of the pitch. Their 'athletes' go out wide.
Today we had Brady and Hoolahan trying to affect the game from the periphery.
The pair of them and another should be in the middle of the pitch running the game.
O'Neill is never gonna buy into this.
Keane was the wrong substitution at the wrong time.
McCarthy played with some fire in his belly - played very well.
Given is done. He slows everything down and looks uncomfortable with the ball at his feet.
Back 4 is established & solid.
Whelan offers very little.
McClean was ineffective.
Long needed to start and he definitely should have got more than 10 minutes.
Murphy was good.
Referee was a poxbottle.
O'Neill has been a disappointment.
Very, very deflating result.
Cheerio Euros.
hear hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
Around 2008/9 football embarked on a big change. Although the club game is in the ascendancy these changes, apart from Barcelona just going crazy and really changing things, I first noticed these changes watching international tournament finals. Looks like these changes are over our manager's head. Primitive and ineffective. Overpaid sinecure. Paul Rowan was right in week one.
I though McCarthy was timid. Keith Andrews would have relished that game. Can nobody carry the ball from midfield other than Wes?
Credit to Strachan, if Ireland were trailing in Scotland at half-time there isn't a hope that we would have the impetus to make a half-time change.
Murphy was a handful. Our goal (which was blatantly offside) came down to his physical strength. But neither he or Walters had the pace or quick thinking to put them to the sword. I read elsewhere that he waited for everything to come to him. He didn't push the extra yard to get his head (or boot) on the end of things. Walters, too, he is game but he just doesn't have the pace or ability to capitalise when he pressures an opposition player into losing the ball. What happened in the 3rd minute summed it up. Coleman was getting good balls in for a period; could have been a different story if the flaky Scotland defence were occupied with him.
Long should have started. The player Scotland feared, a player that could have punished their flaky defence and he was on the bench again. He will be in his thirties by the time we have another meaningful game and he will still be shafted again, and again, and again.
Yep McCarthy was non existent again.
Whelan was Whelan.
Why do the midfield always pass the buck to the centre backs to get moves going? Receive ball, turn and go forward. Whelan doesn't even look up, he's obsessed with giving it back to guys who by default (because they are defenders) are not as comfortable on the ball than a regular midfielder. This happens for 30 seconds with them all tapping around before its passed back to Given so he can whack it upfield. DRIVES ME NUTS.
Taking off Hoolahan when needing a goal was nuts.
If the results fall right(Scotland lose to Germany and Poland) Poland will be qualified with a game to play leaving us needing a win away in Poland to get third.
Whelan kicking up a fuss when he was being taken off. The cheek of him.
I raised the point before the game that Coleman & McCarthy's temperaments were an issue and it was proven true again.
Same thing as Glasgow. Naismith, Brown et al. shook them up and it affected their performance.
Scotland don't have our fear of losing against bigger teams. They will do what they need to do and even if they don't, we are incapable of beating a team the caliber of Poland.Quote:
Originally Posted by eekers
Clearly not, he is the only player we have with any confidence on the ball in midfield, Whelan and McCarthy don't really have that imo, they needQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
a lot more space, Wes reads the game better he has the ability to create his own space.
I was happy with the team's effort and aggression. If Brian Kerr's team had battled with that kind of intensity against Israel and Switzerland in 2005, history would be very different. They can't be faulted for that. One deflected goal was the difference between an old-school, 'put-em-under-pressure' triumph, and hopelessness, depression, and the usual 'rip it up and start again' conversations.
However, that effort and physicality was all we offered, bar Hoolahan, and I really don't see how things can improve from here. That effort was as good as we could have possibly expected, and it wasn't enough to beat a Scottish side with a ramshackle defence.
They don't have the awareness of Wes and hence play with fear, and quite rightly so, Wes has more awareness an it gives himQuote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
confidence on the ball, if he gets into a tight spot he will usually have a safe outlet, McCarthy and Whelan usually won't.
Wes can get out of trouble with a quick turn or clever pass, McCarthy and Whelan would most likely get robbed leaving us in big trouble.
We are as good as qualified :)Quote:
Originally Posted by eekers
We've barely turned up for the whole campaign. Got out of jail v. Georgia. Score from a corner today (offside) and against Poland.
Hoolahan and Brady aside, a team full of passengers. Long sitting on the bench.
At least they expanded the field for the championship, so we'll have more games to watch that we're not participating in.
Dunphy's right about McCarthy by the way. Couldn't tell you what he does for Everton, but he's completely anonymous for Ireland in the middle of the park. I think he was involved in the first goal in Georgia, but other than that, virtually no impact.
Keane was the wrong substitution at the wrong time - you are correct. Why Hoolahan was jettisoned I will never know (it was him against the whole of Scotland in terms of technical ability - every time he got on the ball something positive was likely to happen)? In any event I mark that one down to a poor decision on the part of the manager. I give O'Neill credit for his picking Murphy from the off, but he had to see the writing on the wall towards the end of the first half in that Murphy was becoming more and more a peripheral figure. The required substitution at half time was Long for Murphy, but alas that did not happen. Whelan was ineffectual - never have seen what managers see in him and have said it on this board for years now, but I am not a manager. And, I'm sorry, but the back four is not solid. O'Shea has been useless forever and a day and was this way again today, fitting that it was off his accomadating frame that the ball entered the Irish net (shades of Italy at home and several other sub par performances from him). But the question must be asked who do we have to replace him. Answer is no one of any real quality. A quality defender like we see playing in Europe each weekend, takes a high ball on his chest, shows the required close control, and turns the opposition team's possession into an attack for his own team. Neither O'Shea nor Wilson can do that.
In any event I am being a perfectionist here and it would be wrong to expect perfection from our lads and manager - no one is perfect. It should also be said that the Irish team of today is quite a way improved from the team of five or six years ago. They are getting the concept of retaining possession, even if they do resort to the long ball game a little too often, and for that O'Neill and Keane deserve some credit. We are out of the Euros and it is time to blood new players with a new concept of how to play the game.
Too true. This is a good summation of our personnel, although McCarthy has more to offer in a better system (a la Everton). Our lads do play with fear and have done for generations. And this is because they have no technical ability and cannot shield the ball in one on one situations (Robbie and Damien Duff when he played, aside). These are basic principles of the game which we cannot do because as young lads our players were never coached that way.
Too true. This is a good summation of our personnel, although McCarthy has more to offer in a better system (a la Everton). Our lads do play with fear and have done for generations. And this is because they have no technical ability and cannot shield the ball in one on one situations (Robbie and Damien Duff when he played, aside). These are basic principles of the game which we cannot do because as young lads our players were never coached that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
Come Back Mr Trapattoni, all is forgiven!
Well that's was poor, I've said from day one that MON was a spent force.
How many backroom staff does this joker have?
And he still can't set a team up to compete and win games.
He's had long enough to of sorted his first eleven out but instead he picks squads of 30-40 plus before reducing the squad down,
Clueless, why they did a u turn and appointed him, when Mad Mick was coming around to taking the job, is shocking.
Yes, the players have to take their share of the blame, but under this has been there is no plan A let alone plan B.
Quite simply he needs to go!
You don't have confidence in O'Neill or Keane. Do you remember what they did as players, more often than not beating mighty odds against them? That's a very rash statement to say they cannot be at the forefront of change. But change is not going to come in a year or two - we just do not have the raw materials. Compare our lads to those who are on the TV this week (Uruguay, Chile, Armenia, Denmark). All play with far more confidence and authority than our lads. Why? Because they were coached properly as kids. Our lads were front and center of the hoof ball game at home before they went to England, where they were hidden for all of their careers. Now you will always get an exception like Robbie Keane or Roy Keane but the vast majority of teenage boys in Ireland with the potential to go on and become professionals, have all been coached the wrong way. Change the coaching system and then we might get some results.
I think you need to go. Martin O'Neill is not clueless. Has been a brilliant manager over his career. I will agree that I would have not have made at least two of the decisions he made in terms of his personnel today, but the team as a whole was miles behind Scotland in terms of moving the ball and finding space and closing down space. Let me give you this scenario. If we could persuade Pep Guardiola to become manager on Monday morning, do you think he would help us win all of our remaining games and qualify for the FInals?Quote:
Originally Posted by the doc
Both Sadlier and Daragh Moloney made good points after the game. There is very little coming up through schoolboys section in the eleven a side years but at the small sided sections it seems good change is occurring.
You can say what you like about Delaney but through Rudd Dokter we are starting to get some sort of order in the mess behind all senior level football. Its going to take an awful long time to be seen. You can change managers and coaches as often as we like until we start at the kids levels we are at nothing
Ten years in charge and all..............yeah sureQuote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
It could be worse lads - we could be in Greece tonight - 2-0 down to Faroes - back to back defeats against them.
Another very disappointing day all told - we were lucky to get the goal we did.
This is spot on. Given rolls the ball to full back/centre back, they play it to midfielder who panics if there's anyone within 20 yards and give it straight back to the defender, back to Given who thumps it up the pitch, giving possession away.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
Even recognising what the problems are is something that hasn't been done previously. You think the rubbish we are watching at least the last ten years is down to what have done in that time. Its because of neglect over decades. Plus as they said in the studio its going to get worse before it gets better.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
Absolutely - it will get worse before it gets better. Let me tell you, I played LOI level in Ireland before I emigrated to America. I fancied myself as a half decent player at home, but to be real honest I learned more in six months in America (playing against the Portuguese, Polish, Italians, Greeks and South Americans) than in all of my life at home. When I look back at all the blood sweat and tears I put into my game at home and saw what I could have been doing (like learning how to shield a ball properly, changing direction, moving into space, retaining possession) I realise how much time I had wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by hoops1
Depressed. Think we deserved the win today. Lost all effective threat when hoolohan taken off.
What's more, seeing NI get results with arguably a much weaker squad demonstrates what we could and should be achieving.
For me the Georgia v Scotland game is now huge. We need the scots to slip up there and then we'll be very much back in it. Otherwise it's going to take a very good finish from ourselves including a draw with Germany and a win in Poland.
If anything needs to be ripped up, it needs to be the underage system in the country. Set up a proper grassroots regionalised pyramid structure for all age levels, with appropriate pitch sizes, etc. The FAI to oversee things, if you're not under the umbrella of their system, you don't get any club development funding, no priority for international tickets, no players selected for underage squads. Maybe then we'd produce the odd technically proficient player (apart from the odd accident like Coleman or Duff). The Dutch are playing 3/4/5 a side on a quarter pitch until the age of at least 14 or 15.
Just home. ****ed off beyond belief. The missus is now taking the hump with me because i'm in such a foul mood.
Those blaming O'Neill need to get real. The tactics worked really well. The Scottish defence was struggling with the route 1 game we inflicted on them in the first half, and we were well worth our lead. I very much doubt O'Neil told them to see how quickly they could make a complete balls of everything they had worked so hard for in the first 45mins. The players were responsible for this. Not O'Neill
Ratings
Given: 6 - Did everything that could be expected of him, which was very little in truth. Nothing he could have done about the goal.
Coleman: 6 - Clearly our best player, but some of his crossing tonight was awful
O'Shea: 3 - When he isn't wrestling with his man, he's pulling his shirt. I haven't seen a replay, but he looked very lucky not to give away a penalty. It's time to take Old Yeller out back
Wilson: 5 - Always looks like he has a mistake in him, today no exception
Brady: 6 - Reluctant to go to hard one him. He does a job there, but he's not a left back.
Whelan: 5 - He does what he does, and he does it well, but there is never any urgency about him. The role he plays is a bit like a scrum half in rugby. Sometimes even though the pass is accurate, the length of time it takes him allows the opposition to get organised. I was a fan at a time, but i don't see what he offers these days.
McCarthy: 6 - Busy, won a lot of ball and is one of our better footballers. Not his best game by any means, but there were a lot worse
Hendrick: 5 - Yellow pack McCarthy
Walters: 7 - Our best player on the day. Scotland never got to grips with his physicality.
Murphy: 6 - Did well in the first half. A lot of what applied to Walters applied to him. But faded badly in the second half. O'Neill was probably right to take him off when he did.
Hoolahan: 7 - Did really well. He always plays some lovely touches. At the time I could understand why he was sacrificed, but we missed him when he was gone.
Scotland won't slip up. As a matter of fact I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see them beat Poland in Glasgow also. We left our 2 home matches v Poland & Scotland behind us. We are all but out.Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
Well if the Scots do beat Poland that may keep us in it if Germany also beat the poles which I definitely think they will. In that scenario we would be most likely two points off Poland going into the last game against them. Right now I'd probably take such a scenarioQuote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
The last ten minutes really annoyed me.