Ireland V Germany(A) 11th October & Kazakhstan(H) 15th October 2013 - World Cup '14 Q

So SVD, given that you were one of the many to praise Trap all the way through and defend him, and although its only one performance, with whelan i'm sure feeling he had something to prove to the public after dunphys remarks, but perhaps we werent getting the best out of Glenn all this time, and if thats the case perhaps we weren't getting the best out of more of our players, and perhaps we werent getting the best out of all our player, and perhaps we werent getting the best out of our players because of a system enforced upon them, and perphaps we werent getting the best out of our players because they weren't playing in the positions and formations they were used to? And perhaps with that we werent getting our best players either.

It is only one game, but Whelan passed forward more in that game and controlled it better than he has in his last 10 games for Ireland!

He was certainly by far, better than McCarthy, who hasnt really performed for Ireland bar the Sweden away game.

Don't worry stutts you don't have to justify your actions to me, even if you are a closet England fan and are more concerned with them than us at times.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

I'm not sure if that was aimed at my 'Trap away' comment but I've explained a few times what I meant by that. On your point though, our performance in Stockholm was incomparably better than our performance on Friday in my view, even allowing for the level of opposition.

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A comfortable enough draw in Sweden looked better but no way was it incomparably better. That's totally delusional. Also that result only looked good on condition that we got the home result. When you lose at home, it does put a hefty spanner in the away result. We didn't have a shot on target in Sweden as against 5 real chances in Germany. And in all our performances in this campaign, Sweden away would be the only one that you could argue the toss with.
Also you are comparing a default system that Trap reverted to, a fine tuned, tried and tested system against a middling team with one real spark, to a coach who just walked in the door with no experience at this senior level against a rampant first class team.
A Trap team would in all probability have lost by at least 3 goals (probably >5) with no chances created in Germany. We would have been hoofing from beginning to end.That's beyond dispute.

Whelan did play relatively well to be fair. That said, I would expect him to play a bit better in what was a less demanding roll that required less composure or craft.

I have absolutely no doubt that a Trap managed Ireland with a Trap managed system would have done no better than the King model last Friday, and could very easily have done far worse (as it actually did, at home). People expect too much of a man who knows he's out of a job in less than 48 hours, playing what are competitively meaningless fixtures.

Maybe it was just me (it usually is these days) but I thought that we looked to be lacking in the fitness and speed stakes. McCarthy in particular looked Whelan-esque compared to some of the Germans. Obviously Coleman's charge at the end was a good example, but in general I thought we just weren't at the races either in terms of mental or body speed.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

So SVD, given that you were one of the many to praise Trap all the way through and defend him, and although its only one performance, with whelan i'm sure feeling he had something to prove to the public after dunphys remarks, but perhaps we werent getting the best out of Glenn all this time, and if thats the case perhaps we weren't getting the best out of more of our players, and perhaps we werent getting the best out of all our player, and perhaps we werent getting the best out of our players because of a system enforced upon them, and perphaps we werent getting the best out of our players because they weren't playing in the positions and formations they were used to? And perhaps with that we werent getting our best players either..

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Cracking sentence that. I'd say we haven't been getting the best out of our players since before the Euros, and certainly not out of Whelan although I do feel he's looked a little bit shellshocked - form wise - since pre-Poland. Poor Glenn probably felt more than a little despairing with Trap towards the end, what with him having to carry the midfield can despite publicly torching Trap's two-in-midfield after the Gdansk gutting.

He was definitely better on the ball than he has been in sometime - not sure if that was because he was out of the midfield firing line but, regardless, he played a lot better than his central replacement Wilson.

No matter how a manager is considered, once things go stale there's no going back - I expect the majority of the squad, if not them all, will play a little bit lighter now Gio has left the building.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Maybe it was just me (it usually is these days) but I thought that we looked to be lacking in the fitness and speed stakes. McCarthy in particular looked Whelan-esque compared to some of the Germans. Obviously Coleman's charge at the end was a good example, but in general I thought we just weren't at the races either in terms of mental or body speed.

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Playing the likes of Germany or Spain must be the mental equivalent of running a marathon. Checking runners, chasing shadows, making last-gasp desperate attempts to win the ball...add in the past 12 months and confidence being low, then I can understand why they looked a little laboured. Everyone will be happier once this campaign is over and it's all to play for once again. I don't think it's a fitness issue necessarily.

In terms of general pace though, I thought that side was probably one of the slowest Irish teams in recent memory. Usually we have some pacey outlet but there was none on Friday, outside of Coleman. Gibson, Wilson and Whelan are not particularly quick. Doyle, McCarthy and Stokes can gallop a bit but don't have genuine speed. Without Long, McClean, McGeady or Pilkington, we were definitely lacking in pace.

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Originally Posted by geysir

A comfortable enough draw in Sweden looked better but no way was it incomparably better. That's totally delusional.

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I think the disillusionment falls with those who believe we performed anything near okay on Friday night. We were composed, competitive and solid in Sweden... we were no better than I'd expect from a team ranked far lower on Friday. The few chances (which were in total disproportion to the general balance of play) we created papered over a fairly depressing night for me. I accept expectations are at a new and hopefully temporary low. This is probably a simple case of you rating our performance the other night higher than I do, so we can agree to differ on that one.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Also that result only looked good on condition that we got the home result. When you lose at home, it does put a hefty spanner in the away result.

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Well we're taking about the performance really, not the result. Those two results may have been seen as a package, to some degree, but the two performances can be separated out individually. Any shortcomings in the Austria game can be attributed to that game on it's own. It doesn't take away from the professional performance produced in Stockholm, even if it did make the result less encouraging.

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Originally Posted by geysir

We didn't have a shot on target in Sweden as against 5 real chances in Germany.

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Selective statistics. Shane Long's chance in Sweden was arguably a better one than any of those the other night. Clark with a set piece header, Stokes from the far touchline on his weaker foot and a couple in the first five minutes of both halves while the German's hadn't settled into any rhythm. Fair play for making the chances and all that but that's the way games go sometimes. You don't always have to play very well for chances to fall your way. Plus, we gave up little or nothing at the other end in Sweden, compared to countless chances in Germany. I think comparing the games to this degree is futile but if you're going to compare chances created then chances conceded is also relevant.

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Originally Posted by geysir

And in all our performances in this campaign, Sweden away would be the only one that you could argue the toss with.

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Well we've only had four other away games, and Kazaks/Faroes are hardly comparable... although we were were efficient in the latter, terrible in the former.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Also you are comparing a default system that Trap reverted to, a fine tuned, tried and tested system against a middling team with one real spark, to a coach who just walked in the door with no experience at this senior level against a rampant first class team.

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Well no I wasn't. I'm was merely saying I think we performed far better in Stockholm than Cologne, in response to you saying otherwise.

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Originally Posted by geysir

A Trap team would in all probability have lost by at least 3 goals (probably >5) with no chances created in Germany. We would have been hoofing from beginning to end.That's beyond dispute.

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Trap's time had come and gone, you have no arguments there. I do think we should have lost by far more than three the other night though in any case. I have no idea how many chances we would have created under Trap, or if we would have conceded more or less... but I wouldn't be convince that King improved things. He was more negative than Trap and was even more useless on the touchline.

Apologies for all the quotes. I hate those kind of posts myself but I felt I had a lot to respond to!

I think it's worth point out as well that had McCarthy had any finesse in his passing we'd have had two great one-on-ones in Stockholm. But I think Germany at home and Spain away are better comparisons myself. Although, the more I think of it, comparisons area bit pointless.

I'm not as negative as DeLorean about Friday, though I'm not going all happy-clappy about things either. Let's see if we can resemble a modern cohesive football team tomorrow. I hope we can.

Kazakhstan looked (very) poor against the Faroes on Friday from what I saw. We should be comfortable tomorrow with the same formation and greater attacking outlets - ie two wingers + Hoolahan/ Reid behind Stokes. Don't see any real need to start Josh, Dunne, Keane.

For the record I wasn't expecting King to produce miracles... I was just utterly depressed at his lack of courage, lack of substitutions and post match interview. I really saw it as an opportunity to try some of our more creative players and go for broke in a non-reckless way, but he was too concerned about not being the guy that oversaw another 6-1 mauling or something along those lines.

He has fallen into a very difficult situation in one way, but a kind of pressure free situation in another. I agree tomorrow is another day and hopefully we can get the performance/result we're looking for.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Playing the likes of Germany or Spain must be the mental equivalent of running a marathon. Checking runners, chasing shadows, making last-gasp desperate attempts to win the ball...add in the past 12 months and confidence being low, then I can understand why they looked a little laboured. Everyone will be happier once this campaign is over and it's all to play for once again. I don't think it's a fitness issue necessarily.

In terms of general pace though, I thought that side was probably one of the slowest Irish teams in recent memory. Usually we have some pacey outlet but there was none on Friday, outside of Coleman. Gibson, Wilson and Whelan are not particularly quick. Doyle, McCarthy and Stokes can gallop a bit but don't have genuine speed. Without Long, McClean, McGeady or Pilkington, we were definitely lacking in pace.

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Thats the thing with this german team, I think in the whole game that coleman run was the only time we outpaced them. German teams were always big strong, physical and fast. Now they are all big men, very fast and also possess a natural skill level that they were lacking in the past. They really are the complete package.

Some very slow players in that German back line.

I hear Mertesacker is still on the pitch and still hasn't made it to the changing rooms.

The thing about how the Germans played, in my opinion, is not so much that when a given player had the ball he was so gifted that his opposite number in green was under pressure. It was more that at all times the player with the ball had an option - and the Irish opponent was faced with a range of options.

It's as if every player on their team was asking himself "how can I make myself available for the next pass?" and also "and how do I make myself available for the pass after that?". The key was the movement without the ball. That didn't require pace or athleticism, though it always helps. Of course it also helps that the ball sticks to the guy given it, and that the guy given it can see where others have made themselves available. If it doesn't stick, or the guy doesn't see the options all the intelligent positioning can lead to gaps when the ball is unexpectedly lost. Even when they lose it they are "on" the opponent immediately.

They key is for everyone to have an appreciation of space, and for the guy on the ball to see space. Everyone must be able to appreciate the whole picture. Germany were a complete unit. It was the same in Dublin.

I'd love to know how that's coached.

The best we ever provide is the occasional good sub-unit, a little triangle here and there and occasionally we'll join up two triangles and look like we know what we're doing.

Having played fussball with Germans for a good few years, it's all part of a 'national psyche' thing. They're not infallible but expect and take achievement in their stride.
They expect success, though not necessarily next year, as they'd be the first to tell you the flaws of their current back 4 and half of them are not keen on Neuer in nets.
Though they don't seem to agree on an alternative. A lot of that is to with an anti-BM feeling, unless they are the last German team in the CL.

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Originally Posted by Kingdom

Maybe it was just me (it usually is these days) but I thought that we looked to be lacking in the fitness and speed stakes. McCarthy in particular looked Whelan-esque compared to some of the Germans. Obviously Coleman's charge at the end was a good example, but in general I thought we just weren't at the races either in terms of mental or body speed.

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I agree which makes the lack of subs even more appalling. We had reasonable spells either side of half time, but by around the hour mark the team (midfield especially) looked spent. If he wanted to go for it he could have brought on Hoolahan and/or Reid, if he (as some suggest) wanted to keep it tight and defend the 2-0 deficit he could have at least brought on Green as a fresh pair of legs to close the German midfield down better. If he wanted to freshen up the wide areas he had attacking players like McGeady, McClean and Pilkington or O'Brien as a defensive option. He did none of this, it was a bit like a driver who knows he is lost yet still refuses to pull over and look at a map.

Pilkington was injured, and still is AFAIK, gone back to the club is he not?

Pretty sure he's completely out, as is Brady.

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Originally Posted by EAFC_rdfl

Pilkington was injured, and still is AFAIK, gone back to the club is he not?

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That's what Tony O'Donoghue said during Germany match. And he was on the sideline so good oul Tony should know!

Anyone know the rules regarding yellow cards?
If memory serves me correctly Coleman & Whelan are on YC, will another see them suspended for the opening game of the ECQ?

With any luck Whelan won't still be in the frame for the next Euros...

I just want a proper side put out tomorrow night with players looking to play some football.

Forde

Coleman Clark Dunne Wilson

McGeady McCarthy Gibson Reid

Keane Long

We don't need 5 in midfield against these guys so stick with the basic 4-4-2.

Just play this team Noel, we might even learn something

___________________Forde
Coleman____Doc________Clark_____Wilson
_____________Gibbo_____McCarthy
_________________Hoolahoop
McGeady________________________Pilkington
__________________Long

Yes, we might learn how futile it is picking a player who has already returned to his club due to injury.

How low could the crowd be tomorrow night? 15 - 20000? Carling Nations Cup attendance?????

And what about the friendly Vs Hungary? I guess if there is a new manager it would be a little exciting but there will be some empty seats for that massive clash. Rumors abound Stutts is going to tear his raincoat off and go streaking at halftime too which would make matters worse.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

And what about the friendly Vs Hungary?

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Serbia, you mean?

oopsie. that would be the indos error actually, is where i read it.

Just noticing Kazakhstan have a defender by the name of Mark Gorman in their squad.

Call him up, Noel!

Surely, more a question for the Eligibility thread...

How have they got that guy? What is the connection I am intrigued!

Keanes comments this morning p1ssed me off. Look at Denmark/Switzerland/Sweden. More often than not they qualify.

Why, what did he say now?
All those countries are lot more organised that we often are.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Keanes comments this morning p1ssed me off. Look at Denmark/Switzerland/Sweden. More often than not they qualify.

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The old "lower expectations" and "we haven't got the players" arguments are strawmen. We absolutely do have the players to at least compete for second spot and to not make the football look like a hot potato.

If the players themselves believe they're not good enough to compete for second spot in a qualifying group then they should question how much they're earning.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

How have they got that guy? What is the connection I am intrigued!

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He's not actually Irish, in spite of the name. He was born in Almaty.

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Keanes comments this morning p1ssed me off. Look at Denmark/Switzerland/Sweden. More often than not they qualify.

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These comments, I'm guessing?: http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/inter...-expectations/

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The 33-year-old said: "People in England talk about the FA trying to change the structure and trying to play a lot more English players, and they are slowly suffering from that.

"We are going to be at the bottom of that, we are going to suffer as well from that, so if that does change, then it's only going to benefit us as well.

"We need more players to be coming through playing at a higher level. At the moment, that's not the case. Obviously, there are a few, there's no question about that.

"The expectation level has always been high in Ireland, that's just the country that we are, that's the way we have always been.

"There's no harm in having expectations, but sometimes you have to look at the reality as well, and the reality is at the moment we are just not right there."

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He's become a public apologist for disappointing team displays of late.

Another case of the headline not really reflecting the story though, no? "We are just not right there" is probably fair enough, but many would have you believe we expect to be qualifying by right. We don't.

Right from the draw for this group it was obvious we were up against a superpower and a regular qualifier so we'd have our work cut out. Second place would have been a very very good achievement.

But even in that context the group was an unmitigated disaster. It's not unrealistic to expect better with the players we have.

Hmm, be more inclined to agree with Robbie...don't think we do have the players currently, to be amongst say the top 10-15 European teams that will qualify for Brazil.
Could have made a better fist of some performances and results but ultimately we're not good enough and suspect this will be the case for the next two World Cups. The Euros are another matter, but ultimately a lot less interesting, especially if 2020 goes in the direction it suggests.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Just noticing Kazakhstan have a defender by the name of Mark Gorman in their squad.

Call him up, Noel!

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Given that his name is Gorman I would have initially guessed there were Jewish origins there as the Irish diaspora in Kazakhstan isn't one of our more famous invasions.

There’s a good few Gormans in Israel. Nothing to do with our lads. I learnt this after watching the Dave Gorman Collection on BBC 2 about ten years ago.

http://www.hebrewsurnames.com/GORMAN

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorman_(surname)

McGeady yesterday and now Keane waving the white flag.

Christ no wonder we don't have players turning out for Man Utd, Arsenal etc nowadays if that is the prevalent attitude within the squad. I liked Strachan's comment on the BBC website about how his players need to start working harder and stop feeling sorry for themselves about how difficult it is with the number of foreign imports in the game.

McGeady probably thinks fans expecting him to actually find a teammate from time to time is unrealistic.