They all where. And tbf a decent shimmy from Fat Francis...Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77
They all where. And tbf a decent shimmy from Fat Francis...Quote:
Originally Posted by KK77
glen whelan is th worst player in the eu how be bluffs his way through a game i dont know there are far better prem player cant get a game.
Tbf, he's better than Ward. But how he gets a game in the EPL/for Ireland still, is beyond me...
..we have the 2nd most substituted player in the Premiership.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Once again a Trap team does the business away from home. However, if we had played them at Lansdowne, we probably would have lost, assuming there wasn't a riot.
England are a thouroughly predictable team, a bit like us in that sense, except they have some very good players, where we mostly have average/mediocre to good players. Walcott personafies this, he looks great against an average player like Stephen Kelly, but put him against the Italian left back or the Dutch left back, and he mightn't look so good.
On a side note, I really think England are going to miss Lampard and Gerrard in the years to come, whereas centre mid could be a very strong place for us with Macca, Hendrick and Meyler (and hopefully Gibson coming back). The English media always has their love in for certain players and I really don't get what they see in Carrick, who personafies averageness. James McCarthy is a far superior player in every sense. I haven't seen enough of Phil Jones to comment on him, but he seems to be the latest player to be bigged up by them, when he hasn't done anything of great note from what I can see. We really missed out on Cahill. The lad is a very good defender.
My ratings:
Forde - 9: Top performance from David. He's really made the number 1 jersey his own
Coleman 8: Business as usual from Seamus. Terrific player who has ironed out the defensive flaws in his game. His opposite number Johnson could take note. Seamus can play on the very biggest stage.
St Ledger - 5: Not his best performance in an Irish shirt.
O'Shea - 6: Decent shift from JOS.
Kelly - 5: I like the lad, but he was giving Walcott acres of space to exploit.
McGeady - 5: Tried to do too much at times and had a number of shots on goal when he should've passed. Wholehearted as ever though.
Walters - 6: Gamey player, who worked his socks off. Not a winger though and unless there is an absolute emergency with 2-3 players injured, he should never play there again.
Whelan - 5: Mediocre, but in fairness he always puts in some shift.
McCarthy - 8: Top performance from a terrific player. This fella like Coleman will go to the very top.
Long - 8: Great goal. Worked his socks off all night and won frees. Tired in the 2nd half.
Keane - 6: Good solid shift from Keano. He is clearly past it as a player, but he is a legend. Lots of our up and coming players could take note of Keano. Great pro.
I don't think we did finish the game well. We gave up two one-on-ones in that period and the moment Sammon came on was the moment we seemed incapable of playing any football at all in their half. The last 2-3 minutes was well played though, I'll agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Trap is just pathologically stuck to 442 and long-balls, and Glenn Whelan.
I'm surprised Walters is getting stick from some here. He wasn't spectacular but he did well enough and did what Trap asked him to do. It's not his fault his main task is to win flick ons most of the time.
It was really really noticable watching live just how consistently Whelan is a couple of feet off the pace. He never seems to have time on the ball and never sees the straightforward pass forward. I was sitting beside Crafty Toe Poke and he said he looks like an old pro whose legs have gone. I don't really blame him for the goal though. The ball should have been cut out relatively easily by St. Ledger (I thought it was O'Shea in real time) and we simply gifted them the equaliser.
Coleman was the one real class act in our team, and McCarthy showed some very good signs. Whelan was a passenger.
Apart from the goal St. Ledger was generally commanding, especially in the air, and O'Shea was fine. Kelly was so / so but nothing to give out about and put in a hard shift.
McGeady was frustrating as usual. Played well at times and made space at times but continues to take too much out of the ball and makes poor decisions. He plays with his head down too much. Similarly when McClean came on he cut back into play when he had acres of open space in front of him to attack.
Long and Keane both did well when you consider just how badly they are fed.
With regard to Trap:
Why bring on Cox, an orthodox central forward, only to move him to RHM after 10 mins to accommodate Sammon? Trap has played Cox at RHM about ten times now and he just does not have the toolkit to be a success in that position.
Sammon did better than against Austria, but it's embarrassing that Trap thinks he's the style of player he wants to use.
A mate at home says that the less Hoolahan is picked, the better he seems to get in public opinion (a fair point to some degree) but it was clear that we were crying out for a guy who actually wants the ball, is comfortable with it and who plays with his head up. I'm not saying he's Zidane, but he's a proper ball-playing footballer. Whelan just does not even do the nuts and bolts of basic central midfield anymore. I don't blame Trap for Gibson's exile but Gibson would have loved it out there last night. He and McCarthy would have been a far more functional and cohesive midfield. The whole tone of the performance is set by Whelan's continued presence: off the pace and panicky on the ball.
Final word goes to David Forde: I was nervous about him originally getting the jersey over Westwood but he is become a very very dependable 'keeper. He deals with crosses well, commands his defence, made important saves when asked, and handled tricky low balls across the six yard box very comfortably. Well done Fordey.
All in all though a fairly low key affair between two ordinary teams, with England having the only real quality on show apart from Coleman and McCarthy.
Was atmosphere any good on telly?
Good summary from Bungle.
As for Carrick;Man.U's most under-rated player in the EPL. Which is why he still gets his game for the Ingles and is currently better than JMcC.
Though hope JMcC. might exceed him in the next 2 years.
Don't worry Stutts, they could all here you on tele!! I hope your kid enjoyed the game. A few more and he will be fully blooded in.
Stutts acknowledges that seeing players in the flesh gives you a far clearer perspective on their ability and positioning and general play. I've said that before in the past and I think some people saw that as some sort of superiority complex, but its 100% true. These were the things I saw from Ward away from home and Coleman(dragging) that doesn't always get picked up, or because you are seeing such a small area on the TV, that its not noticeable. Anyway, Kelly was making up for his lack of space by sticking tight to the 18 yard line so no one could get in behind him and expose his lack of pace. I think this worked as he generally defended well when they came in at him, but we still lacked wilson there, granted he isn't the fastest either.
I'd agree mostly with Bungle and stutts summations. However I think people are getting a bit carried away with Forde. He is very commanding under a high ball, but his reactionary and getting his body down low is not up to standard. Those two shots were straight at him, he did well to close his legs and knees to block the shot, but getting down low or instinctive reactions are not there. I'm not blaming him for the goal, but I think someone like hart would have got something on that for example. The second goal against Austria for example he was way off his line considering how far out their players were from goal. He got easily lobbed for that goal, whereas had he been further back he would have saved it easily. Last night he was always way out of his goal. I'm not sure why he does this, perhaps he is barking instructions at his defenders. His ability under pressure to clear the ball is woeful, and that's what started Englands attack for the goal. I think we will get caught out worse with this, as opposing teams do the analysis on him.
Coleman and McCarthy were very good. I think both teams are very average, England are us but with two speedy wingers. They are setup the same way pretty much but can actually counter attack. Neither team played at 100% or looked close to it. I think it mattered more to us, and in a proper match England would have beaten us. What really came home for me though last night was how average England are, they will really struggle at next years World Cup, and they don't realise that their League is no reflection of the ability of their national team. The English team will get left behind by the wealthy foreign owners buying up the top clubs. I think last night also drove home how average we are too, but should still be well capable of beating a team like Austria at home.
I would have taken a loss to England and qualifying for the World cup. I would have taken a loss to England and beating Austria. But I think for International football in Ireland and national interest this game, and the draw was important.
A "5" rating for Sledge Bungle?
Doc where are you?
And that's well done POSH. It goes with a lot of sports, when you are there in person you are also seeing what the player is doing away from the ball, puck, bean bag, etc.... which Wayne Gretzky said was actually more important than what they do WITH the ball, puck, widget etc... at times.
Positives
Coleman - really maturing & glad Trap has realised he is worth a place in the team (should have done better for English goal though)
Long- a real threat & a fantastic goal.
McCarthy - hope we find somebody decent to play next to him asap. Nice to have a footballer in the engine room for once who doesn't treat the ball like a ticking bomb.
Forde - solid.
Our defending at set pieces - brilliant.
The realisation of how bad England really are when you see em in the flesh. Lots of snide comments from their local media saying we are just a Championside side....well if we are Forest/Derby then England are only Watford.
Negatives-
McGeady - complete waste of time. Play Brady or beg Duff to come back.
Whelan - passenger. Our biggest pass combo from last night must be Whelan to Forde.
Kelly- looked ropey at times.
Enjoyed the game & atmosphere from our end. Must say the English fans were very muted. Is it the ground acoustics?
The positive is that we didn't lose.
There is nothing else really to take from that game except that our future in this campaign is even grimmer.
Possibly Trap won't consider dropping McCarthy in favour of Whelan again. But we don't know that yet.
The consistent theme is with our dreadful football and Trap's bizarre decision process.
Agree completely. McCarthy would have been a far more potent player with Gibson playing beside him. I have gotten to the point where I would rather play with ten players than play with Whelan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Taking stock of last night's game, we remain a team which is very nervous on the ball. I blame Trap (not his fault to begin with but he should have taken command and changed it) for not devoting every second training session to ball possession (be it playing against a Rovers or Bohs reserve team or a Leinster Junior team just to get their composure and build from there). Until we fix that flaw we're always going to be second rate. Also we are crying out for a player (or two) who can hold the ball up in the final third. Keane could do it consistently a while ago but as we all know he's past it now. Duff used to be able to do it but Long clearly cannot, as much as he is good at other things. Sammon cannot either and Doyle was never good at making the ball stick. Walters seems to be the only one who can do this - maybe Robbie Brady can fit into that equation some time soon?
Looking forward to the return games with Sweden and Austria, I feel less fearful about the Austria game because we always seem to perform well away. Sweden is a toss up. But there are several flaws that need to be worked on (Hoolahan for Whelan), Gibson to come back if he's "ready" and Wilson in at left back (Kelly was woeful at times there last night). And of course ball possession.
Good post there from mark12345
Did they have much to cheer, besides the goal?Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
Gentrification of football? And home crowds are often more subdued than their visitors.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
Almost entirely agree, but I think Sledge is far more culpable than Whelan for the goal,; he just missed it inexplicably and Whelan hadn't anticipated such a basic mistake. In almost any other regard though I thought Whelan was culpable!Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I'm glad shakermaker highlighted our defending from set pieces. Really really good.
I can't agree with POSH's view of Forde, sorry Paul. He was blameless for second Austria goal. He has been thoroughly convincing in doing the parts of his job that defenders crave a goalie to do.
There's a relatively new technique in goalkeeping, probably influenced by Schmeichel, in spreading all your limbs in close-in one on ones and I agree that maybe Forde hasn't mastered that, but for me he exudes the calm confidence of Packie in his prime. Not afraid to come and collect high balls, sweeping well, taking low crosses confidently. As long as a keeper does that and the bread and butter saves, anything on top of that is gravy as far as I'm concerned. The way he dealt with that inswinger that missed everyone in Stockholm was masterful. Paul Robinson used to let them in every time!
My 7 y/o did think he kicked the ball too long at times though.
He did a couple of times, and more times too short :) At the end of the day Given would have saved us more goals than Forde would get close to. He is good at relieving pressure in one sense, but he puts us under it in another way. He cant get down low quickly either. He is at milwall for a reason, I'm sorry but its true.
Does anyone else notice the resonance from Trap about Long, Coleman, McCarthy,[Wilson], over the last few months. I think Trap is somehow trying to take credit that he has somehow influenced their progression and readied them for international football, when realistically people have been calling for this for about 1.5-2 years.....but its better that they are playing than not no doubt, and that they are being singled out for praise - for whatever reasons - but I feel most of it has been forced.
Which Given are you comparing Forde to?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Pre or post the home games against Armenia/Macedonia?
If it's pre - then you are comparing Forde to an Irish version of a world class keeper.
If it's post- then I would disagree.
I dont think I've watched a game involving the national side dispassionately as I did last night. O.k I didn't want them to lose, least of all to England, but what stayed in my mind was the contrast in technique and ability of last night's game at Wembley with the game last Saturday night.
totally agree on the sentiments re. Whelan, as for Sammon? Better say nothing!
Ya I suppose I was lamenting. Its just I felt that people are making him out to be this top keeper which he isn't, a top keeper that won't make mistakes. He hasn't made any yet and I hope he doesn't but he isn't a top keeper and as a result of that he is at Milwall.
He makes mistakes enough times for Millwall. A competent keeper, but no more than that. Can't see him playing above Division 2 regularly myself.
CBG, we'll never hold a torch to the standard of last Saturday but in Stockholm we looked pretty accomplished from front to back - and that was with Green and McCarthy in the middle.
I have become convinced that Whelan is not just struggling in his role. More importantly, his inability to get on top of things is setting the whole tone for the rest of the team. It's like slow ball in rugby - you can have the most dynamic three-quarter line in the world but ponderous half-backs would render them ineffective - and allow the opposition an initiative.
Forde is perfectly at home in the Irish team. That's plain to see. People underestimate how important it is to have a keeper the players trust. He's not Buffon or Neuer, but defenders want a keeper who does the nuts and bolts well and Forde has done this for us. Once Given and Bonner started getting the yips it showed and it took its toll on the rest of the team.
Dean Kiely was the same - he walked straight into the team when needed with no fuss whatsoever. Although I think Kiely is better than Forde, the way they command the jersey is similar.
And anyway, many a tier two country or worse has had a lower league standard keeper to great effect down the years. Also, look at England - they have had highly rated keepers who looked lost in the international shirt.
The positive is were got a draw in the back yard of a team allegedly ranked 7th in the world,
that I think must put us in the top 3 if not no 1.
I wouldn't say we're the best but we're in the top 1.
It's difficult for some to factor in possible mistakes made 4 months down the road, in a review of his performance yesterday :)Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
But if you remember, he did make a mistake against Poland (kick out) and was forced to make a good save from a fierce shot,diving fast and low at full stretch
Out of interest, here's Alaba's goal. The shot went into the corner and would have been a very good save to make, even if Forde had been closer to the line. As we know a top class goalie like Given in his prime, got caught off his line for us.
Was Austria's most forward player actively offside, interfering with play?
http://ballsdot.wpengine.netdna-cdn..../alabagoal.gif
'Command the jersey' is the phrase for Forde alright. It's fairly remarkable how to the fore he's been since he came into the team, compared to Westwood (a decent goalie) whenever he deputised for Shay or came in last year. Definitely went into the role with a 'I'll be taking this one' attitude, and it's paying off handsomely. Great to see a player, particularly a keeper, make such a strong claim.
Psychologically I'd say Fordey's been helped in a career where he's bounced around the LOI, lower leagues and various loan stints before ending up in a team going from League 1 to the Championship. Gritty and determined. He's not a 'top keeper' - and never will be. But no one should underestimate the power of keeper with an authoritative attitude, and the streetsmarts to back it up.
As for the game - well I enjoyed it, atmosphere made it just above the average. Coleman was magnificent, although he's should take a 10 per cent cut of the goal blame (come on Seamus, don't just let him dander into the box). McCarthy is sheer class. I though Sledge had a really strong game with JOS, aside from the goal. Even Kelly did ok considering he always looks very uncomfortable at LB.
McGeady was maddening but, in his defence, I agree with CD - there were times he broke at pace (and McClean on one instance) but had to check back because there were very little options. Forwards too far away (and running away, towards the box), midfield far behind. Either a genuine box-to-box player or perhaps Wes, an intelligent attacking midfielder, would likely help.
I'm not writing Keane off yet because I also think he's the best finisher the side has. But if he's to play deeper with Long, the two have to get closer together. They almost linked up well last night (couple of flick ons just not quite coming off) but they never quite appear on the same wave length. It's very much a holding pattern up front and I'd agreed with anyone who suggested we need a permanent solution. Come on ya spagetti guzzler and give us some Hoolahan sure, see what's up.
Good to see Ireland's most unpopular footballer (Sammon) give his status a boost by shoulder charging an English defender in the spine with the ball already over the dead ball line.
Does anybody really think we would have managed a draw if this was an important qualifier by the way? Don't kid yourselves, there was good point(s) in the game, the 3 younger lads, but really that's about it. England did not care for this or try too much bar the last 10 minutes. Brazil and finishing the season were on their minds, bar possibly Lampard who tried hard. It was typical of how we play and how when it matters we get beaten or we do what we did against Brazil over the last 2 years or slightly less.
Bar the 3 less, this result and performance was nothing different than we have witnessed previously, and had it mattered I'm sure England would have won.
Very much agreed, but with respect PO'S, tell us something we don't know...
:cool:
Had it mattered England might have fluffed it like they frequently do. No-one can tell. Maybe we'd have played better too.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I used a rugby analogy above (slow ball from half backs) to describe Whelan. I can think of another rugby analogy for Forde: Girvan Dempsey versus Rob Kearney. Dempsey didn't have Kearney's pace or flair and I think fans may not have liked him as much because of this - in fact many didn't like him at all; but he was 100% reliable and his teammates would have loved that. Any flair on top of the reliability is a bonus. When defenders don't trust their keeper they overstretch themselves, or get twitchy. I know - mine never trusted me!
By my reckoning, the tide of the game turned firmly in England's favour when Cox came in, and even more so when Sammon did. Cox was unable to control the ball or provide link-up, like he normally can. The quality of defender he was up against was too strong. I don't think England would have held as much possession in attacking positions, if it weren't for our inability to hold the ball in their own half.
Hendrick looked out of sorts in the middle. Not that I aim to castigate the lad but pitting him against Carrick and Lampard is the highest challenge he's had to deal with and you could see the pace of the game caught him on the hop. It was still only a friendly though, at the end of the day.
Coleman and McCarthy and Long were immense. Fair play to them for putting up arguments for their selection that Trap couldn't possibly resist. A bit of their perseverance could do with rubbing off on Gibson. He would have been such an addition in the middle of the park last night.
I noticed on a few occasions, of course once mcgeady had to be involved and walters another time, where Long and Keane made the exact run they were starting from different positions obviously but were going into the same point, and ending up not giving the wingers proper options. Definitely a pattern there and they don't have it. But has anyone bar Niall Quinn, maybe as he just did the donkey work, had that with Keane?Quote:
I'm not writing Keane off yet because I also think he's the best finisher the side has. But if he's too play deeper with Long, the two have to get closer together. They almost linked up well last night (couple of flick ons just not quite coming off) but they never quite appear on the same wave length. It's very much a holding pattern up front and I'd agreed with anyone who suggested we need a permanent solution. Come on ya spagetti guzzler and give us some Hoolahan sure, see what's up.
Baku is the capital of Azerbaijan. Kerala is a communist state. Anything else?Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
If Forde was anything close to dempsey we will be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Or some kind of soup perhaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Actually Dempsey versus Geordan Murphy would have been a better analogy. One steady but unspectacular, the other very exciting but not as reliable defensively. The fans preferred one but I believe the players preferred the other. Fans and players would prefer Kearney!Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
i dont get it...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Just to revert to Forde and his lowly club status versus his international form. I only vaguely remember Mick Kearns of Walsall. How was he for Ireland? My understanding was that he was very good for us, but I can't recall much, good or bad.
Geysir, Owls Fan, Noely?
It's a bit ridiculous to actually having to explain why Forde merits praise for his performances so far, when out of all the concerns about our team, the goalkeeper position is one of the least worrisome.
You'd have to be really hard up for objects of censure, to pick on Forde's shortcomings.
POS's argument basically goes like this: A great goalkeeper doesn't make mistakes. Forde hasn't made any mistakes so far, but he will in future. Therefore Forde is not a great goalkeeper.