What player?Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
What player?Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
If ye are citing experience as a key factor, when was Kelly's last competitive start for Ireland because it certainly wasn't in 2011 or in 2010 (just checked)? Couldn't be bothered going back further. But suspect it may have been his appalling game V Georgia at Croker where he left go over his head and gifted Georgia the opener.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
At least Foley has one competitive start to his name V Macedonia this year. Foley has made 7 appearances for Ireland while Kelly has made 20 (vast majority being friendlies). Wouldn't think experience should play a huge factor in choosing between the pair because neither are established international full backs.
If you don't use club football parameters to judge players then you have nothing. That's the bottom line. Just the few days like Trap has in the build up to the qualifying games to decide if a player is good or not.
There was a remark from someoe (can't recall who) which indicated that the team is not thinking like that. This is a must win game and I think they recognise that. I'll take a point if, and only if, that's all we can get.
Murf, who are you referring to - O'Dea or Kelly? There's good reason why neither has featured in the last 2 years:
O'Shea - Dunne - St. Ledger....
How do I multi quote from different subscribers? Feels like I'm taking on the whole establishment of the FAI here. Good to see that they are firmly behind their man . . . for the time being
tommy, ask the nurse for a pill.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
The point is that Foley has been given his chances and hasn't taken them, and that was when we had Dunne in the team, our best defender. Foley made a howler in that competitive game you're talking about. It's a close call but Kelly has it in him to do the job. It's a while back I know, but I thought he was really good against Brazil in London. I'd be happy enough with either but think Kelly is marginally the better call. Whatever about experience, I think Kelly has more of a leader in him and we're short of that.
Click the multi quote button alongside every post you want to cite, then press quote on the last post and then edit accordingly. I finally figured it ouit after about 8,000 posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
Yours,
J. Delaney.
Sorry Tommy C im gonna have to weigh in behind the other lads here and endorse the Kelly selection ahead of Foley. The basis of your preferred selection seems to be 'number of games started in league last year'. International football is a totally different animal from club football. Even more restrictive being a nation with a limited quality pick like us. It simply does not translate 'logically' from 'best statistically performing 11 in league' to 'first 11 for national side'. Statistically doesn't even come in to it actually. International game is a different animal altogether and for a jittery away tie in a former yugoslavic state, Kelly, the wiser more experienced head is the sensible pick.
Your Long/Cox rant is way out of proportion too. Most here reckon Long is the better player, at least potentially, but there is not enough in it between them, coupled with the fact that Long is a fantastic game changing option off the bench(ditto Fahey behind Andrews), to make such a whinge over the whole thing.
Tis a solid team. We play shoite football, but reasonably effective, we should be fine.
Please!
Tommy needs about 8 sleeping pills just to feel slightly tranquil.
I couldn't be bothered going looking for it but there was a right back debate a while ago (before the last Macedonia game I believe) but I listed their relative games - trust me when I say Kelly has played in far more competitive Irish internationals than that (and certainly far more than Foley, even when both have been in squads).Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
Anyway we're hardly FAI just because we can see the logic in selecting him! There's several reasons why selecting Kelly COULD be seen as justified. Foley didn't play well in the last game, with a return game there are very specific reasons (height, experience) why Kelly could be selected in front of him. You talk about his caps as if his experience isn't worthwhile - guys been playing Prem football on and off for about eight seasons. He's a fine player and I'm sure he won't let us down.
Foley played a lot this year but even towards the end of the season there was a period he wasn't first choice right back for Wolves. He reclaimed it, in fairness, but it just goes to show these things are variable and the calls that are made a lot tighter than you suggest. Foley is by no means a slam dunk selection, albeit I think him or Coleman will be our number one right back in the future. But for now Kelly could very well be the right man for this game, especially after the run-around Foley got last time.
I was all braced up preparing for 90 minutes with McShane at RB, now a steamroller couldn't rattle me.
I could do withh tommy's sleeping pills. And his nurse.
If u had seen my nurse u'd retract that last statement. . . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
I think 22 goals more this season is a significant enough difference to seperate the two. Don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic
This whole Cox situation reminds me of how Irish fans were lauding McShane as the next Paul McGrath after he made an impressive debut. Cox has no track record whereby Long does. Why take a chance like this in such a crucial qualifier?
Even tactically this makes no sense. Cox is the very same type player as Robbie Keane, so why wouldn't we play Long, a player who plays off the shoulder of the last defender and plays further forward. Particularly when our central midfield pairing offer us nothing creatively, it astounds me why we would not play Long.
As for your game changing notion, I disagree. You start with your strongest 11 available and go for the jugular. Not hold back and throw on your best players at a later stage in the game.
I actually agree with the last point, but Cox will play as an outlet to feet linking midfield and attack I believe. However it's all moot until we see what happens. I trust the manager has his reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
Also it's worth reiterating - we won't win or lose this game because Cox got chosen over Long.
I agree, we'll put it down to bad luck insteadQuote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Jees you are testy! Irish fans arn't just some amorphous blob who blindly follow (well usually!). There's a lot of different views here. I haven't thought we've been particularly lucky or unlucky since Paris, and I wouldn't take anyone seriously who just casually put down every bad result to bad luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy_c12000
Likewise though, it's likely there'll be more than a few who'll put a positive result tomorrow down to fortune rather than credit team or manager...
I can't help but feeling we're blowing our angst load a bit early here - shouldn't we wait until after the game to do this?
Surely thats exactly what Keane will be doing? I assume that means we will not hoof the ball once tomorrow?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Keane used to drift deep, but he does it far less under Trap. He tends to pressure the first defender, chase backpasses and play off the last man, albeit while receiving the ball to feet and trying to play one-two's. I think Cox will play a bit deeper throughout. Speculation, but that's my guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by topia
EDIT - Oh yeah and of course we'll hoof the ball, we're Ireland. I'm not saying we'll radically change our game, but the selection of Cox undoubtedly looks like a slight change of approach since we can't reach for the direct ball into channels/over the top for a Doyle/Long. Ain't Cox's game from what I've seen.
Ya I worded it awkwardly alright, but in the context of this particular game, bearing in mind the 2 warm up games vs NI and Scotch and the partnership with Keane, Longs possible fatigue, mental or otherwise, Longs last game vs Macedonia, the apparent lack of partnership/intuition between Keane and Long....... I'd say there's not a HUGE amount between them for this particular game and I can see why Trap has selected Cox, even though(!) I would have preferred to see Long myself!
As regards the game changing subs. Its a complex one, but the way we play under Trap(generally fairly ****e) and the way we control midfield(we dont) I think its useful to have the likes of Long and Fahey on the bench to call on if we need to change it up a bit 20mins to go. Bearing in mind that we are quite good at the moment at playing shoite but still snaking results! Having decent men on the bench gives us opportunity to change it if needs be. Having Andrews, Cox, Lawrence et al coming off the bench to salvage a draw or sneak a win doesn't inspire much confidence.
We'll all know by this time tomorrow( 10.32 Irish) whether Trap's choice of Cox over Long has payed off. My own feeling on this is that Long had a slight mediocre spell for Reading before the Cardiff play-off game. Played well against Cardiff but looked tired against Swansea. He could well be carrying a slight knock or it could be genuine tiredness. Cox on the other hand had a much shorter season. Played a big part in West Brom's revival and played at a higher level than Long. Plus two good games against NI and Scotland. Hopefully he pays off Trap's trust in him tomorrow night and bags a couple of goals or helps Robbie bag a couple or whoever. The serious stuff starts in 21 hours and 50 mins! COME ON IRELAND!
I hate seeing phrases like this, United play badly and win and it's the sign of Champions, Ireland play shoite and get a result and it's because of dumb luck and we'll be found out and Trapattoni is useless and his starting XI is a joke and will someone for the love of God replace Kevin Kilbane and every single goal Robbie Keane scores should be discounted because the opposition were terrible and there was another player in a better position and we should appoint an Irish manager because he would understand the mentality of the players and so on ad nauseumQuote:
Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic
Nonsense. A draw would be a disaster for our qualification hopes, we have to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
We've got to go for the win and the team and subs are good enough to get the three points. I expect the match to be a lot like the Armenia away game with possibly a similiar scoreline. This is not Russia away here. We are playing a team that has no chance of qualifying. It won't be easy by any means but we are good enough to win this game.
There is of course an argument that goals in the English Second Division are easy compared to the EPL. Personally I would probably have gone with Long, but its a matter of opinion given the context of the last 2 weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
Jaysus. 2 Robbie Keanes. ****ing Disaster!
It isn't, as unless Russia do poorly in their remaining games, they're in the box seat anyway. And we're in the feck-offs. Great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
I give up. Is he still at Swindon?Quote:
Originally Posted by backtowalsall
Incidentally, someone told me he was their best player last season. Though that's not saying much.
He is still there and I was talking to a Swindon fan and they said he was planning on sticking with them in League Two. Apparently Michael Timlin is a different story though.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
How can he square that with all the rubbish he comes out with about Trap? Or is he saying we are so crap, we'd be doing well to get a draw?Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
Excellent. Well said tets.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Don't know what to do with myself. Game kicks off at 4:30 am Korean time. Don't know if or when I should try to sleep!
It was a great post by Tets and there are naysayers like that, but in fairness BoT is saying we are quite good, but not playing good football. I think that's credit to everyone involved. I thought we were sh1te in the second half against Scotland and we have been in other games we have won (30-40 mins against Macedonia), and lost (Norway - after 20 mins to the end) too. We play well in spells, but only in spells. I think this team has it in them to play well for longer than that. Moral courage...
Typing from a train on my mobile. can someone please do the decent thing and address professional miserabilist david kelly's article in today's indo, his latest irish self-loathing instalment? if you don't like international football, don't write about it.
Cheers S88, I was going to pull up Tets on that one as it is definitely not how I feel about the current Ireland team.
Given the kind of nation we are I feel sacrificing the expansive, sexy football we'd all love to see for organisation, solidity, team-and-result uber alles is prudent. We are not Holland or Spain who can fling any 11 on the park and play great stuff. The way we play is probably the quickest route to 'relative success at int level, a totally different game to club football, so I'm happy to see Trap continue with this.
In light of that I find AB's and Tommy's negativity a little tiring though I will wholeheartedly agree AB that second is nothing, the play offs are indeed the 'feck offs' and world football is a sham (way before the current fifa/blatter nonsense). But that is another debate!
Pretty much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
As for the Indo' being a reliable source of info' or opinion, we should know better by now....
Except I don't think we are that organized. Or solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottle of Tonic
Effort, sometimes, is our greatest virtue.
And Holland;'great stuff'. Did you see last year's World Cup Final??
Given wants a win: http://www.independent.ie/breaking-n...t-2666494.html
Anything less, and he says the players will be "seething for the whole Summer".
Is David Kelly's article online yet? I can't seem to find it if it is.
Edit: Not to worry. geysir has just posted it in the eligibility thread.
To save a trawl because his article is not worth a trawl.
More Kelly muck
We are organised and solid. You being a hoops man I'll refernce Celtic and the change of management for Starchan to Mowbray. We were dull and often looked poor under Stracahan but in hindsight the organisation and solidity was the strong point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
And ya I saw Holland. That game was a one off I think where they tried anything to
defeat the possession football of Spain.
An expanded piece covering Robbie's trauma (his pain is our pain threefold) in the Examiner.
"I actually did it on Wednesday (the day before the team left Dublin)," he explained. "I was doing a bit of shooting practice after training and I felt my groin a small bit. Then I trained again on Thursday morning and it was gradually getting worse. But I’ve had treatment since it happened and it feels a lot better now.
"I think I’ll be okay. Look, I haven’t been 100% since I was about 17 (laughs) with various niggles and then these injuries the last few months but I’ve carried on through that. A little groin strain is not going to stop me now. Will I take a painkiller? If required. It’s not an injury that is going to put me out for months and months. It’s muscular. I’ll see how it is, obviously but, rest assured, I’ll be on that pitch."
nasty article alright -calls to mind the 'letter sent' warrior in the Daily Mail last summer complaining about the bbcs televising of tedious group games involving 'bongo-bongo-land' countries.
link