16 Team Premier Division / Winter Season from 2012/13 TODAY'S DAILY MAIL

Well the wather at bray on monday was unreal,if thats in the winter league its only the start of the bad weather you could see how bad the pitch was on mns how can any groundsman get that back to the way it was in a week.
fan levels im sure will drematicly drop its all competing with the epl.
you cant get half of them out on a sunny night never mind a ****ing winter night.
we strugle enough against the europeen clubs wehn were midway through the season how would we get on with not even starting.

this will only damage verything this league had.

Limerick badly need a move, Jackman Park isn't good enough to be attracting supporters to their games.

I assume a 16-team league means the FAI have given up on any agreement with the Carling Premiership for a cross-border league? Not that there was much chance of it anyway.

Latest from the FAI.

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FAI: relegation issue has not been decided
Wednesday, 10 November 2010 16:02

The Football Association of Ireland has moved to distance itself from suggestions that there will be no relegation from the Airtricity League Premier Division next year.

Airtricity League director Fran Gavin Gavin told newspapers that because there had been a recognition of a requirement for a bigger Premier Division in 2012, a decision on promotion/relegation in 2011 should be made quickly.

Some reports suggested that the decision not to have relegation in 2011 had already been made.

The Association released a statement which said no decision on the format of next year's competitions had been taken.

It said that quotes attributed to Gavin and reported in the media were 'personal opinions' and that the issue would be resolved by the board of the FAI only after consultation with all of the game's stakeholders.

Full text of FAI statement:

'Following today's media coverage, regarding the Airtricity League Premier Division for the 2012 season, the FAI would like to clarify the following;

'Quotes attributed to Airtricity League Director, Fran Gavin in many of today's papers about the possible expansion of the Airtricity League Premier Division were personal opinions expressed to the media.

'The FAI Board are considering next year's format and no decision has yet been made. Any decision which is expected in the coming month will be made after consultation with all stakeholders in the game.'

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Not the first time gavin has spoken as league head honcho only for the FAi to say he was actually giving his personal opinions

I didn't believe them then either

There's nowt wrong with it. He's entitled to give his opinion. The FAI do have to go through the formalities and procedures before they make their announcement so it's right that they do clarify their position at this moment.

think its more a case of fran representing what the clubs, officials.supporters etc want and the fai saying john has'nt decided yet

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Originally Posted by FAI: relegation issue has not been decided

'The FAI Board are considering next year's format and no decision has yet been made. Any decision which is expected in the coming month will be made after consultation with all stakeholders in the game.' .

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So the week after licensing and before the season starts?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I assume a 16-team league means the FAI have given up on any agreement with the Carling Premiership for a cross-border league? Not that there was much chance of it anyway.

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Why would we want to look into a cross border league, we need to increase the standard not decrease it. The majority of clubs in the carling 'premiership' would be at very best FD standard in our league.

Check bbc ni around 5pm each sat to see why.

Have heard Delaney supports a 13 team premier playing each other 3 times a season thus retaining the 36 game season.

Unlucky for some.

If they want to retain 36 games, they could go with a 16 club Premier and have 4 groups of 4 for the league cup with a final in the Aviva and a Europa League place to go with it.
If First Division and/or A sides were to be included, they could to with 6 or 7 groups of 4 but the number of teams would have to be a multiple of 4 to work for a tournament format.

What is this obsession with 36 games? It's still repeating fixtures over and over.
Germany only play 34. I think we should only play thirty. Financially it would allow the teams to save money without having to host so many games that no one show up to but they still have to pay for Electricity, Gardaí, security etc. and with the lack of games gate should easily increase over time.

I don't think groups in the League Cup would make a difference and I don't understand why people here are so gung ho about it. Groups create boring dead rubbers.
I don't even think we should have a league cup in it's current format though. Our Association Cup isn't as extensive of a competition to warrant a second knock out tournament or a third if you are in Leinster.

I always think of this as an option:
Premier Division 16 teams playing on a home and away basis With first getting a Champions League Place and 2nd to fifth playing off for a Europa League place a la Netherlands.
FAI Cup as it presently exists with a Europa League Place.
Provincial League Cup a la the LSC
League cup containing all of the semi finalists of the Provincial League Cups with the winner gaining a Europa League place

A 3 fixture schedule is just messy. I don't like it. I realise clubs need games for revenue but it would really help avoid some of the awful fixture congestion we tend to get near the end of the season if it was a 30-34 game season, particularly now that most of the teams are back to being part time.

We should be looking to play fewer games not more. We played 46 games this season which is crazy for part-timers. 30 league games in fine for Portugal and Russia and 28 for Belgium. 36 league games is too many.

Exactly. but it's the typical Irish short-termism that sees 36 games * x = money money money rather than what many here can see are the advantages of playing less games.

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Originally Posted by monsexile

We should be looking to play fewer games not more. We played 46 games this season which is crazy for part-timers. 30 league games in fine for Portugal and Russia and 28 for Belgium. 36 league games is too many.

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Belgium play 30 games actually. 2009–10 they only played 28 because Mouscron were relegated due to the club's financial problems, which caused them to forfeit three consecutive matches. Their record was expunged.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

What is this obsession with 36 games? It's still repeating fixtures over and over.
Germany only play 34. I think we should only play thirty. Financially it would allow the teams to save money without having to host so many games that no one show up to but they still have to pay for Electricity, Gardaí, security etc. and with the lack of games gate should easily increase over time.

I don't think groups in the League Cup would make a difference and I don't understand why people here are so gung ho about it. Groups create boring dead rubbers.
I don't even think we should have a league cup in it's current format though. Our Association Cup isn't as extensive of a competition to warrant a second knock out tournament or a third if you are in Leinster.

I always think of this as an option:
Premier Division 16 teams playing on a home and away basis With first getting a Champions League Place and 2nd to fifth playing off for a Europa League place a la Netherlands.
FAI Cup as it presently exists with a Europa League Place.
Provincial League Cup a la the LSC
League cup containing all of the semi finalists of the Provincial League Cups with the winner gaining a Europa League place

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36 games is what is being played at the moment. Some might want less games but others would want to hold on to that number of games. I've no problems with 30 games if that's the way they decide to go.
The League Cup can have value if run well. Lets say for argument sake the league developed that it had two divisions of 16 each. If there was a league cup run with 8 groups of 4, Division One sides would get 4 games against Premier sides. Those high-profile games would be good for the second tier clubs while the top sides would most likely be eyeing a group win and Europa qualification in the latter. Also with the Aviva, the final should be staged in the Aviva.

On what you always think as an option:
I'd agree on the 16 team Premier. The play-off system for the Europa League sounds good as well.
FAI Cup, standard for every country, no arguments there.
I like the idea of going the route of a Provincial League Cup. You'll be going down the route of GAA arguments though where some provinces have it easier than others.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

I don't even think we should have a league cup in it's current format though. Our Association Cup isn't as extensive of a competition to warrant a second knock out tournament or a third if you are in Leinster.

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Hate to have to pop that bubble lad but we also have a third Cup tournament down here too, and have had for quite a bit over 100 years, including the ten seasons from 2000-2009 when ye didn't bother. F**king hell!

Would prefer a League where teams played each other twice - home and away - in League matches. The problem is that decreasing the number of games does mean less income for clubs (or an increase in crowds for lesser number of games which is far from guaranteed) or increasing the number of teams to include teams/clubs maybe not up to the required standard (on or off the pitch).
Allowing for the various cup competitions clubs can play each other 4/5 times a season which is hardly ideal. Best option I can see is 14/15 team Prem with home/away games for each. This would result in 26/28 league games a season which would be a drop from 36.

But would 16 not make more sense then?
Bear in mind that this PD restructuring would need to be coupled with FD restructuring which we haven't even touched yet. I may mock up an Excel tomorrow in work. Hmmm ... exciting stuff.

If people are thinking that fewer games = bigger gates, you're not playing with the full deck.

I think the top 6 in the First Division are capable of playing in the Premier. I don't think the bottom 6 in the First Division should be relegated/demoted/absorbed into playing in a regional league. In the A Championship, Cobh Ramblers and possibly one other club would be capable of playing in a national league as opposed to the regional league that is the A Championship.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

But would 16 not make more sense then?
Bear in mind that this PD restructuring would need to be coupled with FD restructuring which we haven't even touched yet. I may mock up an Excel tomorrow in work. Hmmm ... exciting stuff.

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16 would be ideal (home and away basis) but I would have serious resevations about having 16 clubs of decent quality. While there will never be a situations where all teams are close I see no advantage in having 1/2 teams that are nothing more than "whipping boys" for the rest.

Also would probobly need to dilute the (already weak) licencing process to guarantee 16 Premier licences.

16 teams wouldn't be a problem. The top teams are getting much weaker much quicker than the bottom ones (cos stupid spending is stopping). Monaghan, Derry, Waterford, Cork, Limerick and Shels would all be reasonably competitive in the Premier, especially with a bit of extra cash from being in the top flight.

I don't really see how the lesser number of games is a big issue?? (Maybe it's a Premier thing??)

Like take Limerick we have 16 or 17 home games depending on the year.

Next year four of them will be against Salthill and Monaghan

No disrespect to them but crowd pullers they aint. One game against a Dundalk or a Shamrock Rovers would draw the same.

I realise in the Premier you have 18 home games but doesn't that cause it's own problems?? Like Pats and Sligo playing each other 15 times this year?? Rather than having all those repetitive games would Sligo not have been better off with say one home game against Pats and one home game against a Premier Division Shelbourne??

Would a Premier team having to play Limerick once at home and UCD once at home really make that much difference than having to play UCD twice??

I don't think a sixteen team Premier would see many more whipping boys than the current set up either, mainly for reasons stu says.

I'd agree with Lim till i die on this. The top half of Division One will be a great addition to the Premier. It'll create more Premier rivalries as well and have more provincial clashes. A number of countries have gone with 16 clubs in top flight and it seems to be working for them.

I just have to think that we have to be creative for Irish football and start from the top down. If we do it right then we never have to do it again!

They have to do more than the top down. The league needs to be restructured at the top. Youth leagues need to be set-up. Though in fairness they seem to be looking at both.
It's important the league remains an open league with the A Championship as it is a feeder for potential new clubs. A pyramid structure sounds great, some of us would like to see it but alas it's not likely.

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Originally Posted by legendz

I'd agree with Lim till i die on this. The top half of Division One will be a great addition to the Premier. It'll create more Premier rivalries as well and have more provincial clashes. A number of countries have gone with 16 clubs in top flight and it seems to be working for them.

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Harps finished outside the top half of the first Division last year.(we stuck to the rules!). I think we would be an excellent addition to any extended Premier. (Regular games against the top teams in the country would attract (more) investment!)

Depends on the size of the extended Premier. Ye finished 18th of the 22 LoI clubs this season so unless ye improve next season, in any re-structuring to a 16 team Premier, ye'll be at the top of the pack chasing promotion to the expanded Premier.

it's difficult to talk about this without mentioning a possible merger with the ifa. at the moment the first division clubs are having a hard time moneywise but they are scaping by. if you create a 16 team permier and look for 16 teams in a new first. slighty off point but here goes
16 permier (only be accepted if the NI teams have 8 teams and the south 8 also to start. if we are convinced we are better then time and games will tell) - top 3 into europe and 4th a play off spot with winner of league cup.
bottom 2 go down and 3 adn4 from bottom play off (like present) to meet the winner 3rd 4th play off in the first.)
16 first division (again 8 north and 8 south) winners and runners-up go up and playoff 3rd and 4th meet 13th and 14th looser match. bottom 4 would go down to be replaced by the four group winners of the A chamionship made up of permier (reserve +u20) teams plus others who dream of bigger days. these four groups would have 10 to 12 teams each and would be roughly based on the four provinces. a short season would allow for adapting from winter to summer football and also lower costs. the four bottom teams go down into their respective provinial senior league and be replaced by the champion of the said division.this would in turn be all be filtered into lower divisions ulster senior league division 2 (west) for example until you cover all village teams.if the split were to happen today here goes..........
premier with : rovers bohs sligo fingal pats dundalk ucd galway + linfield, glens , crusaders disterllery cliftonville ballymena glenavon and colraine
first with : bray /drogheda /derry /waterford /monaghan /shels /limerick /cork + dungannon /newry /portadown /donegal celtic /carrick loughgall/ limavady /bangor
a championship four regional groups of 10 to 12 each to be made up of premier A plus:- harps/longford/athlone/mervue/salthill/tullamore/castlebar/cobh/carlow/tralee/HW welders /dergview/ards/institute/ballyclare com/ballinamallard/larne/banbridge/glebe /ballymoney
by far the biggest losers would be harps, athlone and longford but the almost guarantee to winning the division (prizemoney) would soften the blow. again the goegraphical grouping would give a very strong northen division with NI clubs but they may also have better crowds so more money and then better prepared for life after promotion.
feel free to place thsi on another thread...............

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Originally Posted by frenchman

it's difficult to talk about this without mentioning a possible merger with the ifa.

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It really isn't.

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Originally Posted by frenchman

it's difficult to talk about this without mentioning a possible merger with the ifa. at the moment the first division clubs are having a hard time moneywise but they are scaping by. if you create a 16 team permier and look for 16 teams in a new first. slighty off point but here goes
16 permier (only be accepted if the NI teams have 8 teams and the south 8 also to start. if we are convinced we are better then time and games will tell) - top 3 into europe and 4th a play off spot with winner of league cup.
bottom 2 go down and 3 adn4 from bottom play off (like present) to meet the winner 3rd 4th play off in the first.)
16 first division (again 8 north and 8 south) winners and runners-up go up and playoff 3rd and 4th meet 13th and 14th looser match. bottom 4 would go down to be replaced by the four group winners of the A chamionship made up of permier (reserve +u20) teams plus others who dream of bigger days. these four groups would have 10 to 12 teams each and would be roughly based on the four provinces. a short season would allow for adapting from winter to summer football and also lower costs. the four bottom teams go down into their respective provinial senior league and be replaced by the champion of the said division.this would in turn be all be filtered into lower divisions ulster senior league division 2 (west) for example until you cover all village teams.if the split were to happen today here goes..........
premier with : rovers bohs sligo fingal pats dundalk ucd galway + linfield, glens , crusaders disterllery cliftonville ballymena glenavon and colraine
first with : bray /drogheda /derry /waterford /monaghan /shels /limerick /cork + dungannon /newry /portadown /donegal celtic /carrick loughgall/ limavady /bangor
a championship four regional groups of 10 to 12 each to be made up of premier A plus:- harps/longford/athlone/mervue/salthill/tullamore/castlebar/cobh/carlow/tralee/HW welders /dergview/ards/institute/ballyclare com/ballinamallard/larne/banbridge/glebe /ballymoney
by far the biggest losers would be harps, athlone and longford but the almost guarantee to winning the division (prizemoney) would soften the blow. again the goegraphical grouping would give a very strong northen division with NI clubs but they may also have better crowds so more money and then better prepared for life after promotion.
feel free to place thsi on another thread...............

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My plan had this in consideration. however there was not an Irish League team near it as that is the last thing that we should be considering. If we get our house in order and if the IFA want a merger then we should consider it on it's merits. Until then talking about a merger is nonsense.

The thoughts of Harps playing the Welders makes me cringe!

my dad was a harps fan and I know it sounds terrible but there would be some big losers with a system like this. the other reason i went dirrectly into this was that the only other way is to have a 16 team premier and then 4 regional divisions north, south, east and west. each of 10 to 12 teams with the 4 winners going up and the four last places going down into the A- championship. problem with this that we would need a minimum 56 teams in the ROI!!!!!! WHAT IS THE DIGGEST PROBLEM FOR 1ST DIVISION CLUBS PLAYERS WAGES TRAVEL DISTANCES OR GENERAL RUNNING COSTS?

That plan is completely insane. We can only work with what we have. Requiring more senior teams is not a goer.

so how many senior teams (or semi senior teams) do we have? 22 plus 5 A championship= 27? surely we could scrape up another 5 or so...........

The problem is that for the second year in a row, no new teams have shown any interest in joining the A Championship, too many clubs are in an intermediate/junior football comfort zone to take the senior plunge even in an expansion.

LMFM reported on their lunch time news that clubs are voting on whether or not to accept the 16 team division tonight along with how to restructure the first division. They said a regional first division is a possibility. Can't find any more information anywhere online though.