Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by WeAreRovers

FAI more concerned with a continuing pathway that bridges the gap between u19 and senior football rather than just creating a pyramid for the sake of it and as such I'd imagine the new 3rd tier will be made of a mix of existing B teams - Rovers II being the obvious template - junior clubs that want to make the step up and groups like the Kerry League.

Mark Scanlon's comments yesterday seem to support that - “Whether it’s a B team from a current club, a partner club, or a brand new geographical area where some clubs are already in our underage leagues."

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soc...-long-26188317

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This exactly a third tier will be easily put together.
We have 5 or 6 teams playing under 14s,15s,17s, 19s now who can just continue as u20 with a grant from FAI like the grants for the other age groups (+ a few older players if they want).
+ Rovers B
+ 100% for good or bad (probably bad) POS will enter Limerick City.
+ A.N.others

It will make the first division an exciting place to be 5 out of 9 either promoted or in the playoffs and 2 of the other 4 either relegated or in a play off......
OR some other mad combination :)

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Looking back to #145, either I mis-stated it, or you have misunderstood, but what I meant was that if the step-up from eg LSL or MSL to a third tier is Carrauntoohil, then subsequent promotion to the FD for such a club would be Mont Blanc.

I certainly never mentioned Everest.

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Fine - Mont Blanc. The exact mountain doesn't change the sentiment. The step from LSL to third tier is not as big a step as you think.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You seem to be agreeing with me, while appearing to be determined to be seen to be disagreeing with me!

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I mean - you've said various things, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't agree with. It's not that hard a concept, is it?

I disagree with the value of just adding in an open-invitation third tier and making no other changes - as it seems to you.

But I don't agree with you that there aren't clubs around who could make the jump, or that the jump is too big. There's no incentive for most to make the jump. That's the problem.

The strategic plan KPI for an outlined pyramid structure by 2025 is encouraging - and yet, as I've said before, I won't hold my breath for it to actually happen.

Ealing Green - I think the fundamental problem here is that you don't appear to understand non-league in the south. As a Nordy that's not a huge surprise - but your posts are going on as if you do understand it (when the content of those posts suggests otherwise).

As has been pointed out to you multiple times by a number of people now, there are strong non-league clubs around - some of whom regularly feature in the FAI Cup early rounds, and some of whom would presumably be interested in a 3rd tier (Ballymnun United revealed ambitious stadia proposals at the end of last year, and suggested that their ambition was to enter the LOI). There are also clubs in the LOIs' underage structure who would doubtless be keen to add an extra age level on and join a 3rd tier. And then there are existing footballing organisational structures and venues in a number of counties that would be used to form 'new' clubs which would essentially be just a rebranding and extension of an existing set up in order to enter the 3rd tier. This should not be hard to understand - yet you keep insisting that Irish football is a desert outside of the LOI's current 2 tiers.

And you may have thought you were being clever to bring up Irish Sea Border FC. But the fact they weren't allowed into the LOi and have never actually existed in reality just shows how daft it was to chuck them into this debate. Your posts have a veneer of looking to have a go at/sneer at the LOI constantly throughout them.

In summary - I'm afraid you don't appear to understand the non-league scene in the south, but are waving your arms around as if you do. So take a breather, listen to what people are telling you, and maybes wait and see what transpires before you completely rubbish the 3rd tier concept on scant knowledge. I know internet forums are all about debates - but being at least partially informed in them is generally considered a minimum entry requirement if you want your views to be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Fine - Mont Blanc. The exact mountain doesn't change the sentiment. The step from LSL to third tier is not as big a step as you think.

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I shall try one last time.

At 3,400 feet, Carrauntoohill is not very difficult - I walked up it myself one afternoon when I was in my 40's. Meaning that the step up from eg the LSL to a 3rd tier need not be very difficult either.

Mont Blanc is 15,700 feet, covered in snow year round and needs ropes, crampons and years of mountaineering experience etc. Meaning that the step up from 3rd tier to FD is a challenge of a whole different magnitude, especially in the first years before the 3rd tier teams/competition have settled in.

So that it's not that the FAI isn't capable of assembling 10 teams for a 3rd tier - of course they can - it's that the teams are liable to be so far behind the 2 top tiers, in so many respects, as to negate the whole point of a pyramid: smooth transition up and down the divisions; even competitiveness; ambition and investment rewarded and overall standards raised etc.

Nor am I saying that the LOI is inherently incapable of accommodating such a structure - there's no good (stress) reason why it cannot. But what I cannot grasp is how they can prepare for all that by next year, especially when they're still financially strapped and have so many other items on their to-do list, all while they're trying to transform their own organisation.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But I don't agree with you that there aren't clubs around who could make the jump, or that the jump is too big. There's no incentive for most to make the jump. That's the problem.

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The incentive is obvious: to improve, develop, win things, chase trophies, "be the best you can" (to borrow an Americanism). Otherwise why bother playing at all?

The real problem is that such are the structural inequalities between LOI football and non-League football that the cost of going for it (stadium, facilities, players, expenses, staffing etc) poses too much of a risk when measured against the rewards on offer.

Meaning that it won't be enough to assemble 10 teams overnight and call them "The Third Division" (or somesuch), there surely has to be a huge amount of groundwork to be done first, in preparation for a launch.

Why do I say all that? Because I've observed just how much hard work and time it's taken to do something like that in NI, and that on a very modest scale.

And why am I interested? Well aside from being nerdy about such things generally(!), I'm sure there are lessons to be learnt for the IL (both ways, in fact), especially if when the idea of an All-Ireland League gets dusted off again, as it tends to do every few years.

All that guff about mountains is very nice, but it doesn't really change the fact that fundamentally you're wrong. Despite what you say, the First Division isn't a strong division and there absolutely are non-league clubs who would step up. The idea that it's a huge increase in quality from, say, LSL to FD is just not true and has nothing to back it up.

When you say "The incentive is obvious: to improve, develop, win things, chase trophies, "be the best you can" (to borrow an Americanism)", you again demonstrate your lack of understanding of non-league here. For, say, Crumlin United, the LSL is the big one. That's where they're a big fish. That's where their history is and where their rivals are. If they jumped up to the First Division - a national division where they would be also rans - they quite possibly feel they would lose a large part of their identity. It's of course daft that the LSL can hold back clubs as much as it is doing, but that's the core issue here. And there's plenty of other small pools around the country - all the silly county district leagues; there's two of the fecking things in Limerick for some reason - which similarly local clubs feel inordinately attached to. For them, being the best they can be means winning their local league.

So in light of that - what is the incentive to move up to senior level?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

The incentive is obvious: to improve, develop, win things, chase trophies, "be the best you can" (to borrow an Americanism). Otherwise why bother playing at all?

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I've, sincerely, really enjoyed your contribution to this thread but I suspect that a desire to win thing and chase trophies is exactly what would keep the comparative heavyweights of the MSL and LSL exactly where they are.

I'd also be very sceptical of ten clubs from outside the existing, extended LOI family being found but if they found five and bolstered that with the long suffering Rovers II and a few from the current underage leagues they'd have... well they'd have something to try and make a fist of. Ballymun have expressed LOI ambitions recently, St.Francis applied to come back to senior football when Treaty stepped up. Of course it's all ifs and buts so far. Maybe newly monied Derry might switch their second string from USL to LOI3, maybe a Tralee or a Mervue or a Tullamore might have gotten over the PTSD of the A-Championship era. Truly I won't believe it's happening until it's confirmed and even then it'd probably be ten years until I was comfortable believing it would last but I hope something happens anyway to give some sort of shot in the arm.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

As has been pointed out to you multiple times by a number of people now, there are strong non-league clubs around - some of whom regularly feature in the FAI Cup early rounds, and some of whom would presumably be interested in a 3rd tier (Ballymnun United revealed ambitious stadia proposals at the end of last year, and suggested that their ambition was to enter the LOI).

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I've no doubt there are.

But being very "strong", in the sense of being rooted in their community, getting people playing football, winning their local competitions and generally being "proper" footballing people etc, is one thing - I'm sure there are loads of clubs doing just that, 90%+ of whom I've never even heard tell of..

But being able to run clubs like this at junior, under-age or intermediate football is one thing. To raise them to senior level is quite something else. Otherwise, how/why did the LOI find it so difficult to find just one to fill a single gap in the FD these last three years? Such that they had to turn first to Shamrock Rovers Reserves, then Cabinteeley, then just give up and stick with nine anyhow?

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

you keep insisting that Irish football is a desert outside of the LOI's current 2 tiers.

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I'm not saying it's a desert, just that it's very imbalanced, with a huge gap between thew 19 senior clubs and the rest.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

And you may have thought you were being clever to bring up Irish Sea Border FC.

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That was just a joke. You know, exagerration for effect. And it's not as if plenty of others havent made the same joke, on here, at least.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

In summary - I'm afraid you don't appear to understand the non-league scene in the south, but are waving your arms around as if you do. So take a breather, listen to what people are telling you, and maybes wait and see what transpires before you completely rubbish the 3rd tier concept on scant knowledge. I know internet forums are all about debates - but being at least partially informed in them is generally considered a minimum entry requirement if you want your views to be taken seriously.

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I am being informed.

By some posters, at least. :wink:

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Despite what you say, the First Division isn't a strong division and there absolutely are non-league clubs who would step up. The idea that it's a huge increase in quality from, say, LSL to FD is just not true and has nothing to back it up.

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You say that, yet in your post# 148, you also assert that the gap between the FD and Prem isn't that that big either (for many of the clubs, at any rate).

Which is it?

Or is the total gap from 3rd Tier, to FD, to Prem is not so big either?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

When you say "The incentive is obvious: to improve, develop, win things, chase trophies, "be the best you can" (to borrow an Americanism)", you again demonstrate your lack of understanding of non-league here. For, say, Crumlin United, the LSL is the big one. That's where they're a big fish. That's where their history is and where their rivals are. If they jumped up to the First Division - a national division where they would be also rans - they quite possibly feel they would lose a large part of their identity. It's of course daft that the LSL can hold back clubs as much as it is doing, but that's the core issue here. And there's plenty of other small pools around the country - all the silly county district leagues; there's two of the fecking things in Limerick for some reason - which similarly local clubs feel inordinately attached to. For them, being the best they can be means winning their local league.

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Trust me, I am very familiar with the "Big Fish/Small Pond" syndrome - there's plenty of it still to be had in NI football.

But my point is that there also exist very many clubs who are not content with swimming around in the same small pond every year, the people behind them are also ambitious to take their club as far as they possibly can.

And I can't believe that such people don't also exist in the ROI - of course they do. Meaning that it's not small-time ideas or lack of ambition which must be holding them back, but a severe structural imbalance.

And from what I've observed in NI, such an imbalance won't be solved overnight by simply throwing ten teams together and calling them "The Third Division" (i.e. senior).

But we'll see.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

So in light of that - what is the incentive to move up to senior level?

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As I've said, the incentive is that of proving yourself at the highest possible level.

The problem is that the disincentives (risk, cost, failure etc) outweigh the basic incentive.

Maybe this is all just semantics?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Otherwise, how/why did the LOI find it so difficult to find just one to fill a single gap in the FD these last three years?

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The answer(s) to that is very simple.

Firstly - expecting a club to step up to full senior level at short notice is probably a recipe for disaster. Most clubs, even if they have ambitions to play at the full LOI senior level, would rather transition to that over time - not be parachuted into it with little notice. Now if only there was an Intermediate third tier that could help enable them to make sich a transition....

Secondly - it actually costs a lot of clubs to play in the LOI. If you finish bottom of the First Division, you will pay out more in participation fees and fines than you will receive back in prize money. When you add in the fact that the First Division would involve much greater travel costs, players costs etc etc, it would therefore clearly be a huge financial risk for some clubs to join the 2nd tier. Not to mention a big distraction from their othern activity re youth teams etc. Again - if only there was an intermediate tier below it that could help them transition towards the full senior level (or at least see if it was right for themselves). And also - With the FAI looking to create a deeper conjoined eco-system for the top level in the country, presumably as part of that they'll start addressing some of these issues re greater prize money, grants to cover travelling etc.

I honestly have no idea what the core of your argument is here any more. Are you saying there should be no pyramid at all in the LOI, because there is apparently a K2 between the First Division and everyone else below ? If not, then what are you actually saying should happen ?

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

You say that, yet in your post# 148, you also assert that the gap between the FD and Prem isn't that that big either (for many of the clubs, at any rate).

Which is it?

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Why do you think those are mutually exclusive?

Decent LSL team --> average FD team gap isn't that great (but is still real). Decent FD team --> average PD gap team isn't that great. But that still means decent LSL team --> decent PD team can be reasonably big.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

But my point is that there also exist very many clubs who are not content with swimming around in the same small pond every year, the people behind them are also ambitious to take their club as far as they possibly can.

And I can't believe that such people don't also exist in the ROI - of course they do. Meaning that it's not small-time ideas or lack of ambition which must be holding them back, but a severe structural imbalance.

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That's a lot of supposing there EG. And not much to back it up really.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

As I've said, the incentive is that of proving yourself at the highest possible level.

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I've already explained why this isn't an incentive of itself. It's a bit disingenuous to just repeat your stance while ignoring the points made against it.

The disincentives do outweigh the basic incentive - but you need to understand that leaving behind the small pool which is your club's traditional history is also, for right or wrong, a big disincentive for many.

Is there such a thing as 'Nordysplaining' ?

I think the lesson to be learned here, is not to ever try anything.

imagine i'll be told off here but anyway...is there a market in dublin for supporters of LSL sides who dont have an LOI team? its hard to imagine this would be a case in dublin where there is plenty of big clubs with history. im all for a 3rd tier but one thats pretty low on dublin based senior clubs whether that is feasible or not is another thing

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Originally Posted by Jd2793

imagine i'll be told off here but anyway...is there a market in dublin for supporters of LSL sides who dont have an LOI team? its hard to imagine this would be a case in dublin where there is plenty of big clubs with history. im all for a 3rd tier but one thats pretty low on dublin based senior clubs whether that is feasible or not is another thing

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Would love to see the likes of Mullingar town join this after trying to get in a good few years ago also Tullamore Town were in the old LOI B

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

Would love to see the likes of Mullingar town join this after trying to get in a good few years ago also Tullamore Town were in the old LOI B

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There were actually 2 teams from Mullingar trying to out-do each other to get into the LOI at that time - Town and Athletic. Mullingar Town even shipped in a whole team of geezers from London to boost their squad, in real peak-Celtic Tiger stuff (even though it was early on in the Tiger phenomena) : Mullingar Town import entire squad in bid to gain League status - Independent.ie

'You wait your whole life for a league entrant from Millingar, and then two come along at once'. Though neither seem to have had much interest in the senior game in recent years (?)

Interestingly the Mullingar Town imports contained 4 Nigerians and a Brazilian. What an amazing opportunity for young lads raised amidst global levels of poverty, crime and hopelessness - and with nothing to look forward to except a love of football - to see such people play in their Midland's town.

There was a very bitter rivalry between the two clubs apparently. And towards Athlone. I can't remember which Mullingar club it was but I remember hearing that their members and officials were much more likely to go and watch us rather than give Athlone any support.

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Originally Posted by Longfordian

There was a very bitter rivalry between the two clubs apparently. And towards Athlone. I can't remember which Mullingar club it was but I remember hearing that their members and officials were much more likely to go and watch us rather than give Athlone any support.

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My ex lives in Mullingar, and I remember her brother telling me there was a bitter rivalry between Athletic and Town in Mullingar as well. One club apparently had the money but no suppport (presumably Town?), whilst the other was in the reverse situation. I remember him saying that one of them was based on the edge of a big estate or something. Anyways - apparently they both hated each other. Mullingar loves a good local feud.

Having went to school in Mullingar and played for Athletic for a few years at that time I can confirm there is a rivalry. But i got the sense it's only between the few people who run the clubs, not the players. It's a small town so the players all know each other and have usually went to school together etc. In my experience the players from both sides were always respectful to one another. Town didn't have many underage teams at that time so many of their senior players had played underage with Athletic at some point. And there's been loads of players who've hopped between both clubs.
And yes Town's pitch is in Dalton park, a big estate in the town. Athletic's ground is a few km outside the town, but with excellent facilities.
I'm not in touch with anyone on the ground there these days so not sure if either of them have any ambitions of joining the LOI.
I can't say I'm aware of any rivalry with Athlone. When I played with Athletic I remember playing against Athlone town around u17 and u18 and it was no big deal at all, just another game. And when we had school games it was the same thing. Same thing with games against Longford or Tullamore. They were all decent sized towns so the games were usually competitive but I never remember any rivalry.

Yeah I'd say it could well have been just the officials. It was just something one of our own officials said he'd been told at some stage. I think I "played" against Athletic as a youngster and they had very good facilities at the time.

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Originally Posted by sbgawa

(Limerick FC (as opposed to Treaty have teams in the underage system and have applied for a senior licence)

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Limerick FC didn't apply for a senior license.

Also don't have an u-19s team.

They would have entered an u-19s team if paud had any interest in going back in. He doesn't.