Germany V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 14th October 2014 - Euro 2016 Qualifier

Is it just me or do we seem to have a very strong panel of midfielders all of a sudden? When you consider the impacts of Gibson, Hendrick and Hoolahan off the bench with McCarthy even Andy Reid to come back in, that's nothing to be sniffed at. Coleman's return will obviously release Meyler back into the fold there also.

The main problem is that we don't seem to be starting the best of what's available, in my view at least. Quinn and Whelan are probably the last two I would consider to be honest. I'd love to see this for Scotland.

--------------------Forde--------------------------

Coleman-------O'Shea--------Wilson----------McClean

----------Gibson------------McCarthy---------------

----Hendrick-------Hoolahan--------McGeady---------

--------------------Keane---------------------------

Post match, MO'N was rueing our ball retention ability, on that front it might have helped matters if he had selected one or two different players, but an O'Neill selection, however questionable re ball retention ability, still kept the score down to just the one goal without being nailed to the wall and he did assist in the late rescue of a point with his subs.
However, you'd hope that he'd tweak the game plan in future, if he does have those worthy aspirations about improving our ball retention.

Afaic our equaliser was fully deserved, doesn't matter a jot that Germany were the better team in the game. The better team also have to earn their slice of crust and Germany didn't do enough to secure the game. Talking about gammy crosses which changed the course of history, against Holland, Finnan's cross that somehow ended up on McAteer's foot, was as shy and wimpy as they come, but also perfect.

On RTE, it was the commentary that particularly grated me, Ronnie's incessant complaining and George's editorialisng, instead of just commentating. Will the penny ever drop that Ronnie ("he's a great football man") is anathema as a co commentator?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Is it just me or do we seem to have a very strong panel of midfielders all of a sudden? When you consider the impacts of Gibson, Hendrick and Hoolahan off the bench with McCarthy even Andy Reid to come back in, that's nothing to be sniffed at. Coleman's return will obviously release Meyler back into the fold there also.

The main problem is that we don't seem to be starting the best of what's available, in my view at least. Quinn and Whelan are probably the last two I would consider to be honest. I'd love to see this for Scotland.

--------------------Forde--------------------------

Coleman-------O'Shea--------Wilson----------McClean

----------Gibson------------McCarthy---------------

----Hendrick-------Hoolahan--------McGeady---------

--------------------Keane---------------------------

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For me...


-----------------------Forde-------------------------

Coleman-------O'Shea--------Duffy---------Wilson

----------Gibson------------McCarthy---------------

----Brady-------------------------McGeady---------

--------------Walters----Long-----------------------

though if Westwood keeps up his form at Wednesday he'll be pushing Forde very hard for the gloves

Well yeah I'd have Westwood all day but Forde isn't going to be dropped after last night and that's probably fair enough. My other ten are actually who I would select if I was in the hot seat though :)

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

Well yeah I'd have Westwood all day but Forde isn't going to be dropped after last night and that's probably fair enough. My other ten are actually who I would select if I was in the hot seat though :)

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Fair point. Every game Forde plays I think he can feel Westwood breathing down his neck and he pulls off a great performance to make himself undropable.

It's a decent problem to have : )

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Originally Posted by joe_denilson

.......A lovely point to get, but I don't thing we are much closer to qualification. It'll still boil down to our games v Poland and Scotland and if we play like that against either, we'll be getting a draw at the most.

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Just on that point Joe, of course there are games to play where the qualification stakes are still on the table to be won or lost, but we are further down our road towards qualification than most could have anticipated. We have got the away points against Georgia already in the bag and a hen's tooth point in Germany.

"Germany were the better team", but only insofar as how they kept possession. They were remarkably impotent in the final third, given the apparent disparity between the sides, even with their withdrawals. Ireland defended very well for large spells, and pegged Germany back for much of the last ten minutes. I don't think its too much to say a draw was a fair result, given the effort put in by Ireland.

Is there an argument for starting Meyler at RB and starting Coleman at RM to maximise goalscoring threat? Coleman has more goals in him than anyone.

Wes Hoolahan has gained several MOTM awards against top 4 caliber PL teams so I would never question putting him in these situations.

Only in the door from Gelsenkirchen. First things first, it is so much handier going to away matches from Southern England. Decided to chance booking flights over ferry yesterday morning, and was able to get to Dusseldorf and back from Koln to Gatwick, for £160. Excellent stuff. That's the fourth time I've been to Germany and I could live there, I love the way they do things.

You would not have realised there was a match on coming in from Dusseldorf. Once I got to Essen though there was a good build up of fans, and naturally enough it was jammers from there to Gelsenkirchen. The atmosphere was fantastic on the way to the ground, and not an ounce of trouble, bar a few disgruntled commuters on the S-Bahn from Essen due to a stupid delay (couldn't blame them).
Die AufSchalke Arena is a cracking stadium, absolutely cracking, though the pitch looked poor through the centre. Great facilities around the concourse, and ArdeeBhoy to his credit supplied me with a ticket (I think we may both change networks AB!). Was nervous waiting for team news: fairly peeved when I saw our team, even more so when I saw the German team, as to me it looked a side to be taken on, even in their place.

I would have to watch the game again (I saw a replay in Fritzpatrick's (don't ask)) but the atmosphere was jovial so not practical to give a critique I could stand over based on that. I'll try to recall from memory!

I was sober watching the match, and from what I could see, there was a definite game plan to not everything I said last week we should do :p. Seriously, there was a distinct tactic on our part to let the two centre halves have the ball unchallenged to the middle of their half, then force the ball wide. Germany were allowed come to just past our side of the centre circle and then our midfield converged. MON must have insisted on a particular point on the pitch where pressure was to be deployed, in the hope that effectively 18 players squashed into almost one third of the pitch would make it hard to create solid chances in we were disciplined. Two things on that: We were incredibly disciplined in our defending*, but the tactic meant we almost surrendered possession every time a move broke down by either hoofing the ball down field, or by putting a few passes together eventually resulting in passing back to Forde to hoof down the pitch. There was definitely three times whereby the ball went to Forde - either from pass-back, or German play breaking down - and with Whelan free, in at least 15 yds of space and obviously gesticulating for the smart pass, the ball got hoofed out to Walters.

* the right hand side is a disaster waiting to happen; I'm delighted Schurrle, Reus were out, and that an unfit Draxler was playing that side. Working on a replacement right-full needs urgent doing, because we got away with it last night. Poor Davey Meyler just couldn't cope with the inter-changing and movement, and Jon Walters struggled to cover for his inadequacies in the role.

It is extremely hard to constantly watch, because on the few occasions when the match was level, and we attempted to play football, it worked, huzzah! Quinn is tidy on the ball, McGeady is tidy on the ball, Meyler is tidy on the ball, McClean is tidy on the ball, Whelan is effective in the small short almost futsal type passing style, but too often we didn't try to impose that on the game.
Ireland didn't attack the German back 4 enough, and they showed themselves to be a little lackadaisical I thought. Hummels showed that anyone willing to pay 35m€ for him should be given a straight-jacket, and the two full backs are weak defensively. The two full backs were there to be exploited: we only did on the right hand side when we went behind and Walters moved up top, and we didn't get the ball out to McClean enough, because he definitely had the beating of Rudiger, who I saw was a weak point last week, and that was proven right last night.
The last 15 mins there was some really excellent football from Ireland. Hendrick looked every inch the International Player ( which makes his performance against Gibraltar so head-scratching) and Gibson really put some forward thrust into midfield, and did what he is good at, he was constantly looking to either move the ball forward, or advance with the ball himself.
Wes was far from the lynchpin when he came on, but it's a bloody hard ask to expect a fella to be introduced with what, 12 mins to go, surrounded by players who've dug in and run chasing shadows for the guts of 75 mins and expect everything to work seamlessly.

Player ratings:

Forde - 8- made some truly world class saves. I wondered should he have been beaten by a ground shot from that distance, but it just looks a good strike. I want Westwood in the team myself, but the only major gripe I'd have with Forde is that he is just not good enough with ball at feet, or quick distribution in general. Given that could easily be a managerial decision (to time waste - and there was an example of it from a goal kick as early as the third minute) so I won't hold that criticism over Forde solely.
Meyler - 5.5 -for me looked lost until we decided to actually attack with the football, and he didn't look as bad after Germany's goal. I'd say he was Ireland's weakest link last night.
Ward - 7.5 - on the other hand I thought was excellent. Probably his best game for Ireland considering the opposition. Sure he makes some really stupid decisions on the ball, such as rolling a simple 10yd pass out of touch when we had put some truly beautiful passes together, but defensively he was solid, and he always was available as an outball.
Two centre halves - 7 for OShea; 5 for Wilson - were maddening. I meant absolutely maddening. Some really good defensive work, then some really dumbass concentration losses, and absolutley horrible passes. I've seen the Podolski penalty appeal twice, and for me it's as stupid a foul in a penalty box as you'll see and we were blessed.

Whelan - 7 - defensively sound, constantly harried in midfield and dovetailed extremely well with Quinn. Gutted for him to have to leave the field in the circumstances.
Quinn - 7.5 - would be higher only for the poor decision-making for their goal. He is a really smart footballer, and I reckon he has survived in England, whereas he would have thrived in Europe.
[I'll say that the two boys get their rating purely for their defensive work, as their was very little offensive play]

Walters - 7.5 - first 15 mins aside when he had to really guide Meyler, he put in a trojan effort last night, and was battered all over the pitch. Kept going, harrassing when we went behind and was a real unsung hero last night

McGeady - 7 - I can't say he'd a poor game last night because his game is not, and should not, be about being on the back foot. When we decided to attack Germany, his little darts runs and jinxs began to cause chaos.
McClean - 9 - Man of the match by a country mile. Huge workrate last night, combined well with Ward. Attacked Rudiger with success everytime he was able to. Put in two absolute humdingers of tackles. I'd love to see him tested either at left-back or left-wing back as he's got enough defensive nous, plus obvious attacking ability to compliment Coleman on the opposite side, while allowing some of our more talented ball players to be accomodated further forward
Keane - 5 - but not of his fault. He shouldn't be expected to play that type of game.

Hendrick - 8 - Surprised to see him come on ahead of Gibson, so he must be very close to being a starter. Excellent on the ball, thundered into tackles, and probed forward with some nice incisive passing - just what you want from a midfielder. Super assist for the goal, and if it had of been done by Goetze or Kroos we'd still be purring about it.
Gibson - 7 - Couple of pant-staining moments aside, he helped to turn the tide. Must be considered to start now, once he regains full fitness.
Hoolahan - 7 - He induced chaos. Looked unsure a couple of times, lost possession a couple of times, but the panic he drew, allowed others to benefit. He's not the Wessiah, but he's not a naughty boy either. still could be a huge player over the course of this campaign.

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It's very hard, and possibly stupid to find fault with a draw against the reigning world champions. So that's what I am going to do: it is becoming apparent that between Gibson, McCarthy, Quinn, Hendrick, Hoolahan, McGeady and McClean we've talented ball-players that are not afraid to keep the ball and probe forward. Yet in the two competitive games we've had, it's happened little. It can't be the players doing! When we finally took the game to Germany, because we had to, we constantly caused them difficulties, so why didn't we do that from the start?
It is true that we're sitting top with two of our toughest away games done and dusted. It could just as easily have been us sitting in fourth on 4 points, and worrying about having to go to Glasgow and winning. I will take the point and run, but I think people are going to start losing the run of themselves and think that we're going to go to Poland and Scotland and play adventurous footbal - they'll be wrong. But sometimes (as we saw in EUro 12 qual) you need a bit of luck to change the direction of a group, as we got the point in Moscow, here we got a point in Gelsenkirchen.

I argued previously that because of tactics employed by the management team, we failed to qualify automatically for WC2010, when we were in a very winnable group, despite being in with the World Champions at that time too, but we didn't have the courage to really prove ourselves. That was our downfall, despite all the hullabulloo over Paris. I hope to God that we don't end up kicking ourselves this time too. Germany, and I really do believe this, could very easily win every other match in this group, and top it. They really dominated the three rivals they've faced, and they've been extremely unfortunate to come away with 1 point, when they should have had 6. We've still to face Poland and Scotland twice, and as much as I think we're better equipped than Scotland, I worry that Poland will exploit us with the game they have, and they've been a country we have always struggled to play against in modern times. I just hope that if everyone can stay fit who needs to stay fit, that the management will pick a side that can not just soak up pressure, but a side that can actually go and win games home and away against our rivals, because we've got the squad who can do that. The brains trust really need to examine themselves and come up with a formula to get the cohesion and balance right. We should not be callow from here on in in this group. A core of McCarthy, Gibson, and Hendrick, flanked by Coleman and McGeady on one side, McClean and Hoolahan on the other and with Keane or Long in front is better than anything the other two can provide. I just wish we would start believing it.

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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks

Is there an argument for starting Meyler at RB and starting Coleman at RM to maximise goalscoring threat? Coleman has more goals in him than anyone.

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some attacking full backs attack better from full back than if they are switched to midfield. I think Coleman fits into this category

That's a good read Kingdom.
As for a German falling down in the box, I'm glad the ref took the view that if there was no blood or broken limb, there was no foul, regardless of the anguish expressed by the fallen footballer.

Just watched the second half in HD as opposed to a blurry stream, pretty impressed overall, we look a much more confident side than
some of the previously performance, better organised, more like a proper football team, remember those woeful performances against
Spain and Italy in the Euros, and of course the 6-1 v Germany in Dublin.
We did however make a few sloppy errors, careless passing at times giving the ball away cheaply and of course backing off for the goal,
however despite that we still got a result, apart form that we were pretty sound, we didn't give Germany too may chances and we were not
camped in front of our own goal all the time.
A little bit of tightening up in those loose areas and we could be a force to be reckoned with, of course the problem is something else
will probably come lose lol.
The whole side seemed a lot more confident, almost as if they knew what they were doing!
We didn't seem to be chasing shadows all the time as we were again Spain, we were able to win the ball back and keep the
German contained much of the time.

It will be interesting to see how the next three matches Scotland Poland Scotland pan out, they could make or break us or maybe we will come out half baked
as often happens, but at least we can go into them with a bit of confidence now.
Whether we come out with any confidence remains to be seen but it is far to early to throw the towel in we have everything to play for! ;)

Martin O'Neill said at a do in London I was at that he thinks putting specialist right backs into the right side of midfield is nonsense. He says it never works and although a good right back spends a lot of time attacking, it's not the same. I agree. Coleman is a very good attacking right back, meaning he can arrive late and not be confronted by a specialist left back. And anyway, McGeady must have nailed on the right sided role with McClean on the left. I still feel O'Neill prefers Walters but maybe it was horses for courses last night especially when we had an inexperienced right back.

I was underwhelmed by Gibson last night until I saw the match on telly just now, and in the last 20 minutes in particular he was very good, using the ball well and protecting it well. I still feel O'Neill needs to trust his better players more, although Germany are a harder team to play against than most others we'll face.

Kingdom, Didi Hamman thinks Germany are in a dogfight along with the rest of us! They're only one bad result away from him being right. Let's hope it's in Dublin!

I'd love to hear thoughts on Whelan. I have never really rated his performances apart from maybe half a dozen games. He seemed to do eff all with the ball last night, never seemed to have any time or never seemed to have the vision to pick any kind of forward pass. Hendrick showed how it should / could be done better. But I still wonder if Whelan's best attribute is simply clogging up that space in front of our penalty box, the same space that Kroos had all to himself for about 10 seconds in the build up to his goal. Clogging up that space is quite important!

Anyway, 3 games down and no feeling that anything has been left out there. That's as good as we can ask for. But Scotland have a point in Poland which is nothing we can be sure of, to say the least,so despite their defeat in Dortmund we're still neck and neck in the "as it lies" stakes.

If we can win in Glasgow then it's massively game on. We need points in the bag now to cushion against any mishaps later. We never seem to do well trying to catch up from opportunities lost.

Incredible fortitude to claw our way back into that game. Frankly, Germany looked knackered by the end (and before our goal). Very nice to see us take the game to them. Scotland away is crucial (we don't play Germany until the second last game of the season). If we can beat Scotland away, draw to Poland away then we are in with a great chance. Poland still have to travel to Germany and Germany will be needing points early when they travel to Scotland.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'd love to hear thoughts on Whelan. I have never really rated his performances apart from maybe half a dozen games. He seemed to do eff all with the ball last night, never seemed to have any time or never seemed to have the vision to pick any kind of forward pass. Hendrick showed how it should / could be done better. But I still wonder if Whelan's best attribute is simply clogging up that space in front of our penalty box, the same space that Kroos had all to himself for about 10 seconds in the build up to his goal. Clogging up that space is quite important!
.

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.... totally agree - I'm never pleased to see Whelan line out. But there is no doubt that after his substitution last night there was a swing both in possession and threat to the Germans. Work off the ball, and as you say that clogging up that space may be of the utmost importance!

It could also be argued that Coleman is not a specialist right back. Some think he is a bit of a liability defensively
indeed he seems to better than the right winger going forward.
I am surprised he has not been tried more on right midfield, he can certainly get past defenders and put a good cross in and indeed score goals.
Would he be worse than Walters?

Tbf to Ward & Whelan, whilst not perfect, were as much stalwarts as anyone else last night.
Would prefer better/different players, but can't fault their effort..

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Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia

.... totally agree - I'm never pleased to see Whelan line out. But there is no doubt that after his substitution last night there was a swing both in possession and threat to the Germans. Work off the ball, and as you say that clogging up that space may be of the utmost importance!

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I have been critical of Whelan too, however I have also said that that area in front of the box is an important one to
cover to prevent the opposition scoring, so I am kind of contradicting myself there somewhat.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Considering the trauma of the last 30 months, previous results against this team, the pedigree of the opposition and some of the combinations we had to play (Meyler at RB etc), this was an excellent performance and a major, major result.

No need to get carried away - Germany were well below par, we created very little and, indeed, occasionally endeavoured to shoot ourselves in the foot with some hasty clearances. If anything this German team were even more for the taking than we acknowledged.

But after recent results, a bit of reticence and lack of composure is understandable. All things considered - the fight, spirit and intensity - was right up there and it's a great point.

It's still all about the results against Scotland and Poland but we have a great basis to have a go at this.

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Great post.