I cringed a few times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
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I cringed a few times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Perhaps then your use of the term ‘prostituting’ was misguided in your description of Bruce when you consider that Lee Camp seems to have followed a similar route, with his ‘come and get me’ call to the IFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Strange also that for someone so forthright in your belief that Irish players born in the north should make their international choice at an early age, you seem to have no issues cheering on Lee Camp, Who despite having represented England up to u21 level, and who five months before his ‘come and get me’ call to the IFA, said in an interview "Absolutely it is something I would aim for in the future, i would love to play for England,"
Maybe if there was any consistency to your argument you would tell Lee Camp to ‘do one’, as you would Bruce.
So, since you didn't answer the question, I'll ask again. Does the same apply to Michael O'Connor and Tony Kane?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Sorry for misleading the IFA into thinking he was interested in representing NI at senior level and thereby getting an opportunity to participate in their underage squads when he actually intended to switch to the FAI as soon as the opportunity arose and was only using his IFA appearances as a stepping stone to further his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by tricky_colour
At the time though, he might well have been interested in representing NI at senior level (for careerist reasons, if you will), so I'm not sure it is fair to say he was misleading them all along. Circumstances change and it's easy to be moralistic about it in hindsight, especially when we're not personally involved ourselves. In fact, he accepted a call-up to their senior squad before pulling out upon realising he might have a chance of playing for the FAI.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Plus, we're aware that the IFA have been happy to continue selecting players they know have ambitions of switching to the FAI anyway.
I was careful not to say he had been misleading them from the start, but it if we are to believe his own comments*, then at some point he made the decision to stay with the IFA, where he felt unwanted and unrepresented, for his own careerist reasons, while keeping his desire to switch private.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I do think it's easy to be moralistic about that. I don't agree at all with your 'who are we to judge' angle.
*I think it is also possible that we shouldn't believe much of what he says at all. I think it's quite plausible that having received the moronic abuse he has for declaring for the FAI, he is responding by saying things designed to pi$$ those morons as much as possible.
Moralising does comes easy to moralisers :)Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Now you are making cynical assumptions about McClean's designations.Quote:
*I think it is also possible that we shouldn't believe much of what he says at all. I think it's quite plausible that having received the moronic abuse he has for declaring for the FAI, he is responding by saying things designed to pi$$ those morons as much as possible
McClean spoke in general (for all catholics) about his experiences but really he should just speak for himself.
Some nationalists are quite comfortable in the IFA set up and even if some of that group are not comfortable, it's not that big an issue for them.
You're normally quite sharp CDG, but not on this occassion.Quote:
Originally Posted by co. down green
You actually make my point for me.
Lee Camp is a proud Englishman - from the beginning, he chased his dream to play
senior International football for England. He did not play for England harbouring boyhood dreams/ambitions of playing for Northern Ireland.
When he made a call that he was unlikely to fulfill his boyhood dream, he chose to pursue a senior International career with Northern Ireland.
Northern Irish born players with boyhood dreams of playing for the South, should take
a leaf out of Lee Camp's book - chase their dream at the earliest opportunity with the FAI. If it doesn't work out, they are eligible to switch to the IFA.
If, at that point, they are good enough and prepared to give 100% to the Northern Ireland cause, as per Lee Camp, that's fine.
McClean, therefore, dragged religion into the mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Was he speaking as a Catholic, or as a Republican?
They are not two of the same.
In future, I will not be attending a Northern Ireland match which features a player who has played for Northern Ireland at Under 19 or above, subsequently switched to the South and then switched back - I'm not 100% clear in what circumstances this could happen, and have written to FIFA's legal department seeking clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
However, if a player from Northern Ireland starts his International career at Under 19 with the FAI, and subsequently switches to the IFA, that's fine by me.
one last thing, does this apply only to players who switch to the Republic, or to any country (Wales, England, USA, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
It applies to any Northern Irish born player who represents Northern Ireland at Under19 and above, subsequently switches to another Association and then switches back - if that is possible!Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
In practice, I don't think we'll see too many players switching to Wales, England, USA etc.
I often wondered what FIFA did half the time, if its to answer these sorta questions, i'd imagine they are kept quite busy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
How does the average NI supporter feel about McGinn for instance? Especially that he has come out and said he would rather play for FAIreland
Which comment would indicate that he continued playing for NI whilst desiring to switch? Possibly he first desired to switch upon his call-up into the NI squad for the game against the Faroe Islands forcing him to have a more thorough think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
My guess is he was speaking as a republican but referenced his religion, which was indeed naive and careless but also something that academics and sociologists do from time to time when commenting on or generalising in relation to NI. Consequently, I think it's ridiculous to see so many faux-sensitive NI fans make such a big deal of it. I think they're seeking ways to be offended and attempting to paint McClean negatively. For McClean, the word "Catholic" most likely represents his general cultural/national Irish republican identity rather than his theological beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Here's a good example... When I fill in the fairness and equality form attached to a NI job form, out of the three choices of "Catholic community", "Protestant community" or "Other", I tick the box to indicate I'm from the Catholic community. I don't consider myself a Catholic. Indeed, I was baptised one and my parents practice their faith, but I don't believe in any god at present, nor do I necessarily wish to identify as a Catholic. The term has broader connotations in NI, however. I tick that box because the form is really asking me about my broader national identity even though not explicitly mentioning it. Although seemingly more appropriate, I think ticking "Other" would give the incorrect impression.
I know several Catholics who would be offended by such a gross mis-representation by McClean and others.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
McGinn is playing for NI for careerist reasons. His preference would have been to play for us. He remains open about his support for us. NI fans have really taken to him because he gives his all when representing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
I'm baffled as to how this thread remains at the top of the this forum.
In case anyone forgot, we're playing at the Euros in three weeks. Surely debating clearly defined and easily understandable rules with disgruntled NI fans is for the off-season.
I can see why, which is why I say it was naive and careless of him. I don't like having to tick that box on the job form either. I think it's similarly crass and insulting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
To be honest I'd suggest those you know should get a thicker skin. 'Gross mis-representation' like that happens all the time with terms on all sides, hardly seems a big deal particularly considering McClean isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the box. Personally I can't stand sensitivity around words and labels in NI, does my head in. Just my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I'm baffled why you clicked on it. Plenty of Euros threads going great guns. There just happens to be a few eligibility die-hards, doesn't take much to avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
he didn't mention any Catholics you know, he said what it represented to McCleanQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I know - that's why I stated what I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
A piece written by David Adams in today's Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...316238699.html
Goes into a bit more detail on McClean's recent comments in the rest of the article and even speculates on the roots of his surname...Quote:
IT’S A pity that James McClean, the young Derry-born footballer, has opted to play for the Republic’s national team rather than Northern Ireland. He is a decent player, and Northern Ireland could be doing with him.
Still, under the terms of the Belfast Agreement, as interpreted by Fifa, it is McClean’s right to choose between the two, and his decision should be respected – if not necessarily the reasons he put forward for making it. McClean spoke of how, growing up in Derry, he always supported the Republic: “It’s a nationalist city, where everybody supports the Republic of Ireland. You’re brought up that way.”
my point was he wasn't speaking for what the term meant to any Catholic, other than himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
So the principle won't apply in retrospect. Michael O'Connor can sleep easy the night before his next cap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Your conclusion and finish must summarise the overall feeling/tone/context of your piece. He ruins it by this at the end :Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
"how welcome would he have been made feel by his neighbours if he had opted to play for Northern Ireland?
A lot less welcome, I bet, than his teammates in the Northern Ireland squad would have made him."
I dont mean you personally DI :) I gather you are the first comment below, well done DI - maybe thats why you posted the piece, somewhat out of context to the rest of the argument ; ).
Very poor and extremely myopic article. "Although the Football Association of Ireland is highly active in seeking to entice young (Catholic) Northern Irish players to its ranks ..." :rolleyes: I'm all ears Mr Adams -Alan Kernaghan thinks you're full o'**** mind.
Also alludes in his closing that MacClean'd have had a warmer welcome in the Northern Ireland squad if he'd chosen to play for them then he might have gotten in his local community had he chosen to turn his back on the FAI to do so. Speculation and conjecture. Ask Baird, McCourt, McGinn etc how much or little jip they've to put up with from locals. If any I've never heard of it.
Yes, I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Nothing I stated says otherwise.
The same way the average ROI supporter felt about Alan Kernaghan perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Oooohh that Irish Times article...*shakes fist*
The worst thing for me is his smug reference to McClean's name. As if name profiling in NI isn't already crass enough, the way he unveils it from his sleeve like an Ulster-Scots trump card is so self-satisfied despite being utterly irrelevant. What a douche.
He was ****e and I hated when he was selected as always knew he was prone to make a mistake(which he did). Luckily for us he had a World class defender beside him for most of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
A bit like stephen ward now i suspect.
Scored a wonder fluky goal once though, and a good header for us as well, but my biggest memory was being at fault for 2 goals i think against spain.
Am I the only one who thinks McClean is indulging in a bit of historical revisionism? He said back when he first decided to declare for the FAI that he felt he'd been unfairly left out of squads in favour of Irish League players and, at worst, hinted that he'd have accepted a call-up to the senior IFA team. He may have felt unwelcome as a nationalist in a side with a strong British identity, but I imagine no less unwelcome than Niall McGinn or Chris Baird. The whole 'stepping stone' argument falls a bit flat in light of his initial disappointment at not being called up by Worthington.
I think, like a lot of players including some in the senior FAI squad, he just wanted to play international football and chose to do so with the IFA purely because he didn't think the FAI would ever call him up. As soon as he gained enough confidence in his ability that he could be called up for the Republic of Ireland, he made his allegiances clear.
Yeah, but not only does he make one reference to it, but he bases his article around the theme of the second name.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
McClean is unequivocally a Catholic Republican from Derry who supports and plays for the football team of the Republic of Ireland.
It's like in Harry Potter when people who don't have entirely wizard blood are entitled 'Mudbloods'. James McClean may have had a great-great-great (etc.) grandfather who was party to a plantation. So what?
Does David Adams realise he shares the same second name as a certain Gerry?
I think he's making the same points, in different times to different questions. Should McClean have a consistent 'party-line' on his switch almost a year apart? Seems a bit of a stretch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Besides when he first declared, he was nowhere near the Irish team. Now he's in the squad maybe he feels safer to speak more forcefully about it. Or maybe he's been alienated by the stick he's received and wanted to make a point?
Either way, I don't see it as a particularly bad thing. There's a multitude of reasons why he isn't playing for Northern Ireland, he doesn't have to stick to one.
Well he either saw it as a stepping stone or he didn't. His initial comments suggest he didn't, his latest comments state that he did. I'd be more inclined to trust his initial comments before the stream of abuse and the controversy it whipped up.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
I don't think it ultimately matters since it's clearly always been his dream to play for Ireland, but I don't think he seriously believed it would ever be a stepping stone because I don't think he believed he was good enough to make the step up.
I'd agree with your latter par. But I guess I don't get the point your making...is that really revisionism, if McClean's has his mindset from when he was a Sunderland newbie to a Euro 2012 squad member?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Having written a paragraph, and then deleted it, I'm just going to back away slowly from this debate since it involves far too much minutiae analysis of every word James McClean said. And I've met James McClean. It's just not worth it.
Yeah I'm only really going on a couple of interviews. I can see why his views might have become more entrenched in the meantime.
We are agreed that McClean's ideal situation would have been to always have been involved with the FAI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
With hindsight, McClean describes his participation with the IFA as a "stepping stone". That is to say that he accepted international recognition, as a League of Ireland player, with the hope that it might lead on to greater things (be that a call from a Premier League scout or other). This is clear to me.
When he was a Derry player he probably (and reasonably) believed that he would never get the opportunity to play for the FAI. Like Matt Doherty not making the U21 squad, he was evidently disappointed seeing out-of-form/lesser players chosen ahead of him for the IFA. This need not conflict with the notion of settling for the IFA as a means to greater things.
The facts changed - he signed for a Premier League team - and he changed his goals accordingly.
In hindsight, his time with the IFA has become what he refers to as a "stepping stone". Whilst representing the IFA, he wasn't to know that it would prove to be such.
Regardless of the player or issue at hand, this is what happens almost every time this thread rears its head. (Although perhaps that isn't the best phrase to use, since this whole discussion has yet to enter a dormancy phase)Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Apart from the annoyance you've expressed above, another gripe of mine is the nitpicking some engage in regarding the entirely sensible proposal proffered by NB.