Stephen Kenny

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by liamoo11

If his contract doesn't get renewed I wonder what level he gets his next job at? Scottish premiership or lower end of English Championship?

---

Not a hope in hell. It'll be Irish league until he decides to retire. No one is going to be headhunting him outside of Ireland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2023...-off-possibil/

Could get messy yet.

Some pair on him.

Wonder what MickMack would reckon to that.

---

If he had any love for the national team/country he'd walk. He can't fail to see he is destroying the team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke

alcohol fuelled sex tourists

---

I've been looking for a good band name.

Would him being a contender for the Dundalk job whenever it comes up again but too crazy an idea?

I think Dundalk have gone too far backwards for that to be a real option. No Europe next season should reduce their budget further.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

If he had any love for the national team/country he'd walk. He can't fail to see he is destroying the team.

---

You should write to him. Strongly worded letter.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John83

I've been looking for a good band name.

---

You may have it Sir. Use it wisely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Johnny Giles knew how to manage a football team - and Leeds would have become a dominant European team if Giles had been made manager instead of Clough. With Ireland he took a wide variety of footballing talents from three different divisions, many of them bit-part players, knew how to use them and made them significantly better than the sum of their parts. More importantly - he made them very organised, very difficult to beat and bad luck (and widespread corruption in international football in the 1970s) deprived Ireland of qualification in more than one occasion in this period. In 1976 Ireland came second in a Euros qualifying group with Russia, Turkey and Switzerland, missing qualification by one point - and the Irish team were robbed in Russia. For 1978 we were in a qualify group with France and Bulgaria and were ambushed by a corrupt referee and linesman in Sofia. Ireland dominated the game, had a perfectly good goal ruled out for offside, Bulgaria were given a dodgy goal and Mick Martin and Noel Campbell got sent off in a game where Bulgaria kicked lumps out of the Irish players. This was at a time that only one team qualified - and there were no play-offs or Nations League spots - where international managers might have 3/4 games a year and Giles was also player-manager of West Brom at the same time.

Kenny has had three years where he was set-up for the job and nearly four year in it (with now 37 games - in the 8 years Giles was in charge he had 37 games). But Kenny has done the exact opposite of Giles (and Charlton, McCarthy, Kerr and Trapatoni) - the Irish team is disjointed, disorganised, have no idea what they are supposed to be doing (except pass the ball around between Bazunu and the two central defenders), and have zero fight in them - they couldn't win a punch up with a paper bag - and that is something that even Steve Staunton's team could have done. Now - the Irish squad is not at the standard as previous Irish squads - the Charlton era or the McCarthy 2002 squad - but we are better than being dominated at home by the likes of Greece and being beaten at home by Luxembourg and losing to Armenia - 5 wins in 25 competitive matches - against Azerbaijan, Luxembourg, Scotland, Armenia, and Gibraltar - there hasn't been a worst performance from and Irish team in 100 years - and we have had some really dodgy squads who had an FAI committee selecting the team for the first 50 of those years.

The problem is that the FAI get to also pick the next guy - and we know what the FAI are like.

---

I think your eyes are a bit rose-tinted when it comes to Giles (are you a Leeds fan ?). In his last job in England I think he failed to win his last 9 games at WBA before he resigned. Giles always liked to resign before he was sacked. His Irish team were not journeyman as you imply. One of the results from that era I remember most is the 0-1 loss in Switzerland where they were fannying around at the back and lost possession and the Swiss scored. The team that day were nearly all first division players

Paddy Roche
Tony Dunne
Paddy Mulligan
Jimmy Holmes
Eoin Hand
Mick Martin
Liam Brady
Johnny Giles
Terry Conroy
Ray Treacy
Don Givens

The crowd didn't like his football. He got some dodgy decisions ok but he was no messiah as a manager as you seem to think. Incidentally he also thinks Kenny's contract should be renewed presumably on the basis that he doesn't play the long ball.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I think your eyes are a bit rose-tinted when it comes to Giles (are you a Leeds fan ?). In his last job in England I think he failed to win his last 9 games at WBA before he resigned. Giles always liked to resign before he was sacked. His Irish team were not journeyman as you imply. One of the results from that era I remember most is the 0-1 loss in Switzerland where they were fannying around at the back and lost possession and the Swiss scored. The team that day were nearly all first division players

Paddy Roche
Tony Dunne
Paddy Mulligan
Jimmy Holmes
Eoin Hand
Mick Martin
Liam Brady
Johnny Giles
Terry Conroy
Ray Treacy
Don Givens

The crowd didn't like his football. He got some dodgy decisions ok but he was no messiah as a manager as you seem to think. Incidentally he also thinks Kenny's contract should be renewed presumably on the basis that he doesn't play the long ball.

---

I remember being at Wembley September 1976 - Giles was player manager and we drew 1-1; for me that was like when we beat USSR 3-0 in 1973 another brilliant performance by a Giles managed team and he was light years ahead of Kenny when it came to management ( all based on a style of ball retention rather than lashing it up the pitch , which at the time wasn’t appreciated).

May not of been a Messiah ( albeit would of except for corrupt decisions mentioned previously) , so in my book I’d rate him as best manager since Tuohy was installed as our first manager back in the early 1970s…… and I’d rate Kenny as our worst ( he pips Staunton).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

Would him being a contender for the Dundalk job whenever it comes up again but too crazy an idea?

---

Derry far more likely than Dundalk I’d say,more finances available up there….

If and when results tonight don't go our way, they pretty much haven't since the beginning of this campaign so I dont envision that changing tonight, and we are officially eliminated tonight I would hope Kenny does the honourable thing and walks away. I have admired what he's tried to do but ultimately area's such as our defence in particular just haven't been good enough and it's quite clear at this stage that he's lost the dressing room also judging by the players body language. He know's as well as anyone he wont be getting a new deal regardless of what happens versus the Dutch next month so maybe the best thing he can do is step away and allow the next manager or potentially caretaker an extra 2 games to try prepare the team for the NL. With that in mind Ireland will have 6-8 games between now and September 2024 which should be enough time to put together some sort of team by the time the NL kicks off.

One other thing to note is the next World Cup qualifying will have 12 teams in each pot rather than 10 meaning Ireland only need to be 24th or higher to get into pot 2, we are currently 26/27th depending weather you count Russia or not, meaning a decent NL campaign might be enough to get us into pot 2 which we will need as judging by our luck with draw's I would rather we avoid any chance's of getting 2 top football nations in our group!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

I remember being at Wembley September 1976 - Giles was player manager and we drew 1-1; for me that was like when we beat USSR 3-0 in 1973 another brilliant performance by a Giles managed team and he was light years ahead of Kenny when it came to management ( all based on a style of ball retention rather than lashing it up the pitch , which at the time wasn’t appreciated).

May not of been a Messiah ( albeit would of except for corrupt decisions mentioned previously) , so in my book I’d rate him as best manager since Tuohy was installed as our first manager back in the early 1970s…… and I’d rate Kenny as our worst ( he pips Staunton).

---

My first international - wonderful performance. I recall Highway terrorised them down the wing.

Wonder would he consider coaching roles rather than management. Not sure what his family situation is like (young kids), but outside of a LOI managers job I doubt he'll get another managers job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

I remember being at Wembley September 1976 - Giles was player manager and we drew 1-1; for me that was like when we beat USSR 3-0 in 1973 another brilliant performance by a Giles managed team and he was light years ahead of Kenny when it came to management ( all based on a style of ball retention rather than lashing it up the pitch , which at the time wasn’t appreciated).

May not of been a Messiah ( albeit would of except for corrupt decisions mentioned previously) , so in my book I’d rate him as best manager since Tuohy was installed as our first manager back in the early 1970s…… and I’d rate Kenny as our worst ( he pips Staunton).

---

Remember that game as well. He played the team that should have been our preferred starting 11 with Brady, himself and Gerry Daly in midfield, with Heighway, Conroy and Givens up front. Played England off the park. For whatever reason he generally preferred Mick Martin to Daly and Treacy to Conroy around that time. Two functional players generally got the nod ahead of two footballers, which may be a bit of an insight into Giles' pragmatic instincts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joey B

Derry far more likely than Dundalk I’d say,more finances available up there….

---

That's where I see him going as well but it probably depends on what happens next season. If Higgins has them top of the league early on then they won't sack him and I'm not sure I see it happening in the off season. I did think they might at one point but they seem to like Higgins up there and the league will be there for them next year. That said, if Higgins is struggling after the first series of games and Kenny is available......

Kenny has strengths that we can hopefully utilize but I'm not sure where. I doubt the FAI will want to keep him on in any role. But who knows what they might do.

He seems a decent skin anyway so I hope he takes some time off and finds a role that's less in the spotlight at some point (just not at Rovers....). This must have been tough on him and his family.

Of course he isn't even gone yet!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

If he had any love for the national team/country he'd walk. He can't fail to see he is destroying the team.

---

At this point he knows he'll never see a paycheck as big as what hes getting again so he has to keep earning!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razors left peg

At this point he knows he'll never see a paycheck as big as what hes getting again so he has to keep earning!

---

I don't what logic there is in him staying until next month, he know's there is no chance he's getting a new deal and odds are the play off possibility will be off the table after tonight. Surely it would be better from his perspective to leave on his own terms rather than just being kicked like he will be after next months games?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ontheotherhand

That's where I see him going as well but it probably depends on what happens next season. If Higgins has them top of the league early on then they won't sack him and I'm not sure I see it happening in the off season. I did think they might at one point but they seem to like Higgins up there and the league will be there for them next year. That said, if Higgins is struggling after the first series of games and Kenny is available......

Kenny has strengths that we can hopefully utilize but I'm not sure where. I doubt the FAI will want to keep him on in any role. But who knows what they might do.

He seems a decent skin anyway so I hope he takes some time off and finds a role that's less in the spotlight at some point (just not at Rovers....). This must have been tough on him and his family.

Of course he isn't even gone yet!

---

The thing is I actually would like for him to have a role in the FAI to some degree, just not has the Irish coach.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The problem with your analysis is that you're only looking at tournament winners. It was a far more even period for sure, so you did have winners from a wider range of countries. But the advantage of the coefficient is that it shows a wider range of performances, and in that regard it shows the English league as a whole had more strength in depth.

---

Your coefficients are utter boll*cks - Wales - with one team that never got beyond the third round of any tournament (3 first rounds and out, and a second round and out) is ranked higher than Spain with 5 teams (including Athletico in the European Cup Final and Real Madrid in the Cup Winners Cup Final) - and 7 places higher than Greece that had 4 teams including Panathinaikos who got to the European Cup Final.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It certainly wasn't the case that every player in the world had an ambition to play in it like the Premier League - though no-one's claiming that - but to play in it was to play in the top league in European football at the time. Ajax and Bayern were great teams, but the English top flight was the best league.

---

The nature of club contracts pre-Bosman largely prohibited players moving clubs unless the clubs wanted them out. Up to Bosman players were treated like bonded labour.

But if England were the top league then how come they spectacularly failed to break the Dutch and then German dominance of European football until the great Liverpool team of the late 1970s? and how come English team failed to qualify of tournaments throughout the 1970s?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

England's non-qualification in that time was remarkable even at the time - in 1978 they won five of their six games but lost to Italy on goal difference, when only one team qualified. 1974 they battered Poland but Tomaszewski wrote himself into the record books. In 1976 they were second behind the eventual champions. These things could happen when only one team qualified; they were still one of the top teams in the world at this time. Barely outside the top ten in the world throughout that period in fact, and mostly in the top five.

---

Oh - rubbish - 'things could happen when only one team qualified' - well they happened over and over again. You go on about them 'battering' Poland - yet the dye was cast way earlier - when they drew at home against Wales and lost in Poland. England won one game in that qualifying group. And this is where your 'rankings' fall down - England ranked 5th won one game - Ireland, ranked 34th beat France at home and drew with them away. You go on about how unlucky England were in 1978 - Ireland were robbed of qualification but a corrupt referee and linesman (and that was after previously having a perfectly good goal from Frank Stapleton ruled out for offside against France in Paris). The French manager was at the game in Sofia and said "it was impossible to beat Bulgaria with that kind of referee, Ireland were robbed and I saw nothing wrong with Giles' goal." The breakthrough for Irish football should have happened in 1978 - and with the players at his disposal in subsequent years, Giles could have had Ireland qualifying for every tournament throughout the 1980's.

Now all of this is a bit of a sideshow - The Irish teams of the early 1970s punched way above their weight because they had a manager who knew what he was doing and how to get the best out of the players. They were disciplined, organised, they knew how to defend. Giles has famously said football is a simple game - pick your best players and get them to do what they do best. Kenny's team has just as much quality as Giles had in 1974 - but they are disorganised, they lack discipline, they can't defend and Kenny has them trying to do stuff they (at least at this moment) cannot do.

Oh, this is gonna be fcukin epic. I predict a four day typing rumble at least.
Pineappler, I am picturing you doing some warm up stretches and would advise a plentiful supply of energy bars.

PM me for odds on the combatants lads, I will take bets on who has the last word here, JRG a slight favourite in the early stages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CSAD

I don't what logic there is in him staying until next month, he know's there is no chance he's getting a new deal and odds are the play off possibility will be off the table after tonight. Surely it would be better from his perspective to leave on his own terms rather than just being kicked like he will be after next months games?

---

Hes not getting a new deal, and I cant remember how much hes on annually, but lets say he makes 600K per year, that would mean a months wages is $50K... for a man whos not a multimillionaire ex footballer thats a lot of money to leave behind if he resigned

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Your coefficients are utter boll*cks

---

UEFA's coefficients, not mine. Same ones they use today

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Wales is ranked higher than Spain with 5 teams

---

Countries with one team will skew it; just the way averages work. Same as no-one will argue that Liechtenstein league is 38th today. No point using unusual exceptions to argue a point; stats don't work that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

But if England were the top league then how come they spectacularly failed to break the Dutch and then German dominance of European football until the great Liverpool team of the late 1970s? and how come English team failed to qualify of tournaments throughout the 1970s?

---

I've already answered that. There's a difference between the strongest team (Ajax/Bayern) and the strongest league (which looks at strength in depth, which is more relevant here). And Leeds fans will tell you they were screwed by the ref in 75 European Cup final against Bayern.

I'm not arguing Giles isn't a better manager than Kenny so I'm not sure what you think you're gaining with the comparison there. What I (and others) are arguing is that the English league back then wasn't as bad as you made out. In fact, in terms of strength in depth, it was probably the strongest in Europe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razors left peg

Hes not getting a new deal, and I cant remember how much hes on annually, but lets say he makes 600K per year, that would mean a months wages is $50K... for a man whos not a multimillionaire ex footballer thats a lot of money to leave behind if he resigned

---

The FAI and Kenny can come to some agreement I'm sure, maybe mutual consent. I do think he cares too much to stay on just for money especially when its only 50k, him staying doesnt do him or Ireland any good so the best thing for everyone would be he moves on after tonight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CSAD

I don't what logic there is in him staying until next month, he know's there is no chance he's getting a new deal and odds are the play off possibility will be off the table after tonight. Surely it would be better from his perspective to leave on his own terms rather than just being kicked like he will be after next months games?

---

I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TonyD

I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

---

I was aswell and I'm both sad for my ego as ive been proven wrong but also for Kenny as I really liked what he was trying to do but sadly it just wasnt meant to be unfortunately. I do think he cares deeply and that's why I dont want to stick the boot in on him but at some point we have to draw the line and I felt the Dutch game was that line, I also believe because he cares so deeply that if Ireland's chances are done tonight he will walk as I think he cares too much about this team to string them along next month just for a pay out.

That's my main issue and why I wanted change, while we may be easier on the eye we have lost our toughness as a result which to be was the best characteristics of this side. I would like a manager that finds a balance between playing good football, not neccessarily tiki taka stuff but just something that doesnt put be to sleep, and being tough which I feel is definetly possible with the right man. Who is that man, well that's the question and the sooner we start looking the sooner we'll have our answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TonyD

I’d tend to agree, and I was of the “give him time” view, but it’s over now, and I sincerely doubt that he doesn’t realise that. I don’t like some of the vitriolic comments, things like saying he had any love for the team he’d walk now. That’s unwarranted in my view. He clearly cares deeply, and was visibly devastated after the Dutch game . I really wanted him to succeed, but ultimately it just hasn’t worked. I think the main failure is that the team just has such a soft centre. As Didi Hamman said, they always find a way to lose. Will be interesting to see if the new manager can address that.

---

Im with you Tony, I gave him longer than I probably would other because I thought he had a huge job to change the age profile of the team, but unfortunately he just wasnt up to taking it further and in the end I think he lost his bottle with younger players tbh.

I still the bones of a decent side are there, especially with a few more additions from current u21s. Next manager is vital to be able to build a team around Ferguson and get the best out of him I believe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CSAD

The FAI and Kenny can come to some agreement I'm sure, maybe mutual consent. I do think he cares too much to stay on just for money especially when its only 50k, him staying doesnt do him or Ireland any good so the best thing for everyone would be he moves on after tonight.

---

Kenny will be lucky to make fifty grand a season in football management. He's headed straight back to the LoI and will likely never get a gig elsewhere. Fifty grand is huge money to him. He's entitled to it, and the FAI are in no position to pay him off. That's the only reason he's been allowed to stay on so long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colbert Report

Kenny will be lucky to make fifty grand a season in football management. He's headed straight back to the LoI and will likely never get a gig elsewhere. Fifty grand is huge money to him. He's entitled to it, and the FAI are in no position to pay him off. That's the only reason he's been allowed to stay on so long.

---

Sure that was small change when the Celtic Tiger roared ! ! !

How absurd is it that a team in Ireland's form are still in with a chance of a playoff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

UEFA's coefficients, not mine. Same ones they use today

---

And they are still boll*cks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Countries with one team will skew it; just the way averages work. Same as no-one will argue that Liechtenstein league is 38th today. No point using unusual exceptions to argue a point; stats don't work that way.

---

And clearly if one team can skew the results then the results are useless - stats don't work that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I've already answered that. There's a difference between the strongest team (Ajax/Bayern) and the strongest league (which looks at strength in depth, which is more relevant here). And Leeds fans will tell you they were screwed by the ref in 75 European Cup final against Bayern.

---

Yes - Leeds were screwed over in the 75 final - but that still does not negate the fact that the Dutch and Germans (well about 2/3 of the Germans) dominated European football in the early 1970s. Remember Holland is country that had a population of 13million in 1970 - England's population was more than four times that.

And by the way - I didn't argue that the English League was not a strong league - I argued that it was not the dominant league that it is today - to quote 'In 1974 the standard of English football wasn't anywhere close to its position in Europe now and few if any foreign players played in England' - today almost 70% of the players in the PL are foreign - and that is going to directly impact where and with which clubs Irish players play in England. Furthermore, there were only a handful of black players plying in the top division in England at the time - institutionalised racism existed in English football. The first black player to play for England was Viv Anderson in 1978.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'm not arguing Giles isn't a better manager than Kenny so I'm not sure what you think you're gaining with the comparison there. What I (and others) are arguing is that the English league back then wasn't as bad as you made out. In fact, in terms of strength in depth, it was probably the strongest in Europe.

---

1. the comparison is clear - the argument being made is that we have poorer quality players than in times past - that is simply not true - and it demonstrates not that Kenny is not as good as Giles - but that he is absolutely atrocious as an international manager. He is the worst ever manager of the Irish team (and worse than the FAI committee who picked the teams pre-1960s) - and probably one of the worst international managers ever in European football.
2. I have demonstrated that your coefficients are boll*cks and that your arguments do not hold water when it comes to English football in the early 1970s. Now if we were arguing about the late 1970s and early 1980s it would be a different story - then you had English teams that were dominating in Europe and you had a domestic league that was of a significantly higher standard than 4-5 years earlier (including a WBA team that Giles got promoted and built to be a top 8 team in England - while he was doubling up as Irish manager - laying the foundations for Ron Atkinson who followed him as manager).

Pineapple and Jolly, this is off topic and should be taken to PMs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

And [the statistics] are still boll*cks

---

Because you say so?

I am reminded of the old Chico Marx line: "Who ya gonna believe, me or the evidence of your own eyes?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Yes - Leeds were screwed over in the 75 final - but that still does not negate the fact that the Dutch and Germans (well about 2/3 of the Germans) dominated European football in the early 1970s. Remember Holland is country that had a population of 13million in 1970 - England's population was more than four times that.

---

You have consistently cited 1974 as your (continental) high water mark, so 1975 is hardly that far off. And in any case, the question is which was the strongest league back then, not which league happened to have the strongest club (Ajax, Bayern etc).

And since a string of top teams don't spontaneously emerge out of nowhere, how do you explain the Football League's run in the European Cup after Leeds i.e. 6 successive wins by 3 different teams? Someone suddenly sprinkiling magic dust around?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

And by the way - I didn't argue that the English League was not a strong league - I argued that it was not the dominant league that it is today - to quote 'In 1974 the standard of English football wasn't anywhere close to its position in Europe now and few if any foreign players played in England' - today almost 70% of the players in the PL are foreign - and that is going to directly impact where and with which clubs Irish players play in England.

---

And how many overseas players were playing eg in the Bundesliga or the Eredvisie back then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Furthermore, there were only a handful of black players plying in the top division in England at the time - institutionalised racism existed in English football. The first black player to play for England was Viv Anderson in 1978.

---

"And your point is, caller?"

For information, the first black player to represent eg West Germany was Kostedde, against Malta in 1974, and the first capped eg by Spain was da Silva in 1994.

While every single player in the two starting line-ups in the 1974 World Cup Final was white. That was the Final between (ahem) Netherlands and West Germany btw, with Ajax and Bayern well represented.

As for Viv Anderson, regardless of his international career, fact is he was also contributing directly to the strength of English club football at the time. Or was it a different Viv Anderson who won two European Cup winners medals in succeeding seasons?

We can all cherry pick one or two individual points to try to back up a particular theory, but if you ignore the bigger picture, including all the available evidence to back it up, including statistics, then your theory is liable to be misplaced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

1. the comparison is clear - the argument being made is that we have poorer quality players than in times past - that is simply not true - and it demonstrates not that Kenny is not as good as Giles - but that he is absolutely atrocious as an international manager. He is the worst ever manager of the Irish team (and worse than the FAI committee who picked the teams pre-1960s) - and probably one of the worst international managers ever in European football.

---

It is hardly contradictory to believe that the standard of ROI players is lower than it was in former times AND that SK is not up to international management.

This observer, who also remembers the 1970's, would agree with both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

I have demonstrated that your coefficients are boll*cks and that your arguments do not hold water when it comes to English football in the early 1970s. Now if we were arguing about the late 1970s and early 1980s it would be a different story - then you had English teams that were dominating in Europe and you had a domestic league that was of a significantly higher standard than 4-5 years earlier (including a WBA team that Giles got promoted and built to be a top 8 team in England - while he was doubling up as Irish manager - laying the foundations for Ron Atkinson who followed him as manager).

---

Not to this poster, you haven't.

How or why can you explain how the Football League suddenly went from being mediocre in 1974 to being dominant by 1977? Did they suddenly start importing foreign players in the meantime? Or forget to be racist? Did they have another couple of Brian Cloughs that we have somehow forgotten about?

I mean, you cite racism and xenophobia as causes for the (relative) weakness of English football in the early-mid 70's, but as late as 1982, Aston Villa won the European Cup with a team managed by Tony Barton (no Rinus Michels or Helmut Schon he) and consisting of 8 Englishmen and 3 Scots, all of them white. While their opponents, Bayern, fielded 11 white German players too (though their manager was Hungarian, I'll give you that.)

EDIT: Oops! Just noticed John83's post, above. Sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calcio Jack

I remember being at Wembley September 1976 - Giles was player manager and we drew 1-1; for me that was like when we beat USSR 3-0 in 1973 another brilliant performance by a Giles managed team and he was light years ahead of Kenny when it came to management ( all based on a style of ball retention rather than lashing it up the pitch , which at the time wasn’t appreciated).

May not of been a Messiah ( albeit would of except for corrupt decisions mentioned previously) , so in my book I’d rate him as best manager since Tuohy was installed as our first manager back in the early 1970s…… and I’d rate Kenny as our worst ( he pips Staunton).

---

Giles the best manager since Tuohy ? His record is:

John Giles’ Record as Irish Manager

Played Won Drew Lost
37------14-----9---14

against Charlton's

Played Won Drew Lost
94------47---30----17

They bear no comparison and Charlton was appointed only 5 years after Giles. The latter had some great players in their prime including Brady, Heighway, Stapleton and others before we talk about squad strength. Even O'Neill and Trappatoni had better records. No denying some very good results but when push came to shove, he failed. I remember a draw in Turkey in particular and that loss in Switzerland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Giles the best manager since Tuohy ? His record is:

John Giles’ Record as Irish Manager

Played Won Drew Lost
37------14-----9---14

against Charlton's

Played Won Drew Lost
94------47---30----17

They bear no comparison and Charlton was appointed only 5 years after Giles. The latter had some great players in their prime including Brady, Heighway, Stapleton and others before we talk about squad strength. Even O'Neill and Trappatoni had better records. No denying some very good results but when push came to shove, he failed. I remember a draw in Turkey in particular and that loss in Switzerland.

---

Liam Touhy had the potential to be one of the best managers ever - but never got a proper opportunity by anybody - and was screwed over by the FAI - twice. He did an incredible job with Ireland with very limited resources - while also holding down a full-time job to feed his family.

As for the comparison between Giles - and Charlton, Trap and O'Neill - you are not comparing like with like. To start with, Ireland during the Giles era rarely played friendlies - they were always in the bottom pot for three and occasionally four team groups. - there were no Gibralters, San Marinos, Faroes, Lichensteins, Andorras (or any of the smaller former Soviet satellite countries or former Yugoslavia countries). The 1960s and 1970s were notorious at international level for the bigger countries to get all the referring decisions - games in Eastern Europe were always under a cloud of bribery and corruption. Under Giles Ireland could have qualified for the 1974 WC with fair refereeing - the 1976 Euros were it not for a corrupt referee in Russia - and they were absolutely, and literally, robbed of qualification for the 1978 WC because of corrupt matchday officials.

Charlton was a major success with Ireland - but was only appointed after deep splits on the FAI executive and chaos around the voting - both Giles and Liam Touhy were on the short-list with Charlton and all three got three votes each - Bob Paisley got nine votes. Liam Touhy got screwed over and was the name dropped from the second round of ballots - before eventually Charlton was appointed ahead of Paisley on a 10-8 vote. Now - I would argue that potentially - all of the other three candidates would have done as good a job - if not a better job - than Charlton. But that is in the realm of 'what ifs'. But Charton had the benefit of a powerful squad - and Charlton, Trap and O'Neill had the benefit of games against 'minnows' and a large number of friendlies. It took Giles 8 years to get to 37 games - Charlton got his 94 games in ten years - Trap got to 64 in five years - and O'Neill got to 55 in five years. Kenny has 38 games in not much over three years.

It is not a like-for-like comparison.

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.

---

Kenny has been a disaster as Irish football manager.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trequartista20

Down to 58 in the latest FIFA rankings - a full 25 positions lower than when Kenny took over.

Wales, with a squad arguably no better than ours, are up to 28th place, having recently defeated Croatia.

---

I looked at the Transfermarkt lists of goal-scorers in the Premier League and EFL Championship for 2022/23. I have omitted omitted underage caps and 'eligible but not yet selected' players. These figures may not be 100% accurate but they are pretty close.

Premiership goals 22/23: Wales 17, Ireland 8 (thanks to Ferguson's 6)

Championship goals 22/23: Wales 61, Ireland 71.

Can't make a valid comparison with Scotland, given the (declining) importance of the SPL, but for what it's worth: Premiership goals: 10, Championship 66

Its Stephen Kennys birthday today. Im sure everyone on here agrees it would be the perfect time to award him the new contract he has earned in this campaign......

Happy Birthday Stephen! After RLP's post, i decided to look to the stars for answers...

Quote:

---

Scorpio (October 23 - November 21)
Scorpio is one of the most misunderstood signs of the zodiac. Because of its incredible passion and power, Scorpio is often mistaken for a fire sign. In fact, Scorpio is a water sign that derives its strength from the psychic, emotional realm. Like fellow water signs, Cancer and Pisces, Scorpio is extremely clairvoyant (hahahaaaa) and intuitive.

What makes this water sign unique is its distinctive venomous sting (think we're all feeling a bit stung alright). Like their celestial spirit animal, the scorpion, Scorpios lie in wait and strike when least expected (still waiting TBF). Life is a game of chess (more like drafts in this case) for these calculating water signs, who are constantly plotting several steps ahead (I wish) in order to orchestrate an eventual checkmate. This doesn't mean their intentions are necessarily nefarious. Scorpios simply know what they want and aren't afraid to work hard and play the long game (very long game obv) to get it.

They never show their cards and their enigmatic nature is what makes them so seductive and beguiling (LOL). Scorpio is the sign most closely associated with sex: The part of the body that Scorpio governs is the genital area. Sex isn't solely about pleasure for these sensual scorpions. They also crave the physical closeness, spiritual illumination, and emotional intimacy sex can provide. (his poor wife)

Scorpio is ruled by Pluto, the planet that governs both destruction and transformation (or destruction thru transformation in our case). On a good day, Scorpion energy is ambitious and enticing. On a bad day, however, the shadowy side of Scorpio is fueled by a relentless desire for control. Power-hungry Scorpios must remember that if controlled by their egos, they are at risk of poisoning themselves. This sign is at its best when that intrinsic intensity is applied to deep, soulful connections with friends and lovers. When they build trust with others, Scorpios demonstrate unparalleled empathy, depth, and commitment that brighten even the darkest parts of Scorpio’s magical psyche.(star signs are hard work)

---

Scorpio governs the genitals. I think we can all agree he's made a balls of things.

Confirmation of his departure,the best for everyone I think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joey B

Confirmation of his departure,the best for everyone I think.

---

Will I have to get a new signature underneath my posts as well now ?