Player eligibility row

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Sorry, I misread your original post. of course the "unfair" comment was talking about the letters between IFA and FIFA

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Does this mean FIFA still view the situation as being unfair on the IFA? Surely if FIFA genuinely thought it unfair, they'd have amended their rules accordingly. They've already redrawn the eligibility rules once since, if I'm not mistaken, and did nothing to ensure a more favourable position for the IFA.

The IFA make a few peculiar assertions.

(Page 5)
In 2006, the FAI was no longer complying with the "1950 FIFA Ruling" and the subsequent accord reached by the two associations. As a matter of fact, it was making approaches to Northern Ireland players who had no birth or residence connection with the territory of the Republic of Ireland.

Is this actually a matter of fact or are the IFA merely claiming it to be a matter of fact? Who are these players, if so, and is there proof of approaches having been made?

(Page 25)
IFA contends that as a matter of fact during the last 60 years there was a harmonious relationship between the two associations, each of which accepted that it should select players exclusively on the basis of a territorial connection and applied this approach without any variation to hundreds, if not thousands, of players.

The FAI were calling up northern-born Irish nationals such as Mark McKeever, Ger Crossley et al nearly a decade prior to 2006.

Overall, a very interesting and enlightening document. Clearly, the so-called "gentleman's aggreement" with the FAI was a figment of the IFA's imagination. From my knowledge of the relationship between the two associations, I had always expected that this was the case, but the judgment pretty much confirms it.

In fact, both Crossley and McKeever had been capped at youth level by NI prior to 1996 when they switched to the FAI.

Just had a look on OWC to guage reaction and I see the FAI being dubbed a "despicable organisation" for having allegedly refused to agree to previous FIFA attempts to broker a compromise. I find this a bit rich as it must be remembered the IFA also rejected a FIFA attempt to find an amicable solution; a proposal which the FAI actually accepted.

Furthermore, there's a train of thought which suggests that rejection of the appeal mightn't have been so inevitable if the IFA had gone down the line of attempting to argue more conclusively that northern-born Irish nationals qualify to play for Northern Ireland - a solely British team - by virtue of their Irish nationality. I'm not sure anyone could argue such a point any more conclusively seeing as it's a load of contrived and ingenuous nonsense. If the point could have been argued, it would have been.

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there's a train of thought which suggests that rejection of the appeal mightn't have been so inevitable if the IFA had gone down the line of attempting to argue more conclusively that northern-born Irish nationals qualify to play for Northern Ireland - a solely British team - by virtue of their Irish nationality. I'm not sure anyone could argue such a point any more conclusively seeing as it's a load of contrived and ingenuous nonsense. If the point could have been argued, it would have been.

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It can't be argued because NI is in the UK and only a British/UK national can play for NI.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Overall, a very interesting and enlightening document. Clearly, the so-called "gentleman's aggreement" with the FAI was a figment of the IFA's imagination. From my knowledge of the relationship between the two associations, I had always expected that this was the case, but the judgment pretty much confirms it.

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The IFA compound their cringeworthy approach to this whole matter by, seemingly, suffering from amnaesia in their deliberations with FIFA and the CAS about "agreements" made in Belfast on 25th January 1999 with the FAI.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

It's probable that with Shane Duffy and the CAS ruling, Nigel and the IFA believe this is the approach they need to take from now on - ie cap them young and early.

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Hopefully so - subject to the caveat that their introduction does not weaken the aims and objectives of the team.

It's imperative that wasters are flushed out as early as possible - the "fast track" approach has merit in this regard.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Yes he qualifies for us, the FAI's territory includes the 6 counties and therefore those descended from those born in the 6 counties qualify for both the IFA and the FAI.

'FAI territory' is that space of land where the new born are automatically entitled to Irish citizenship, not just the piece of land it has football jurisdiction over.

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Has this actually been confirmed? We discussed it a few pages back (or maybe in another thread) and I concluded that's the only way FIFA could be consistent in their application, but I haven't actually seen it stated.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Does this mean FIFA still view the situation as being unfair on the IFA? Surely if FIFA genuinely thought it unfair, they'd have amended their rules accordingly. They've already redrawn the eligibility rules once since, if I'm not mistaken, and did nothing to ensure a more favourable position for the IFA.

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I don't think they necessarily would. The situation is unfair on the IFA in a sense, but the IFA's solution would be unfair on individual players and (possibly) contravene their human rights at a severe stretch. I don't see how the IFA could possibly argue that their interests trump the right of an individual to seek to represent his country.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Just had a look on OWC to guage reaction and I see the FAI being dubbed a "despicable organisation" for having allegedly refused to agree to previous FIFA attempts to broker a compromise. I find this a bit rich as it must be remembered the IFA also rejected a FIFA attempt to find an amicable solution; a proposal which the FAI actually accepted.

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To be fair, the second proposal was entirely advantageous to the FAI even though it had the veneer of equality.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Has this actually been confirmed? We discussed it a few pages back (or maybe in another thread) and I concluded that's the only way FIFA could be consistent in their application, but I haven't actually seen it stated.

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I remember the discussion and the questions around the wording - esp 'territory'.
The only rational conclusion is confirmed by FIFA's consistent interpretation - that a player born abroad, to a parent/grandparent who was born in the territory that offers automatic citizenship to the Republic, is enough to qualify that player as eligible for the FAI - even if that territory is outside the association's jurisdiction.

Irish citizenship/nationality is the criteria for eligibility for the FAI
A Nordie, as we know, is a full blown citizen of the Republic, from birth, born in a territory that entitles him/her to Irish citizenship. So if that Nordie goes abroad and has kids, those kids have the same nationality/citizenship entitlements as the children of an emigrated Southerner. That is enough for FIFA as confirmed by their consistent interpretations.

The point of contention was that Alex Bruce was the last player to qualify through a Northern relative and that was before the rule-change so it hasn't been tested recently. I agree it's the only interpretation that makes sense but I'll only believe it when I see it.

another question how did paul butler qualify to play for the republic?

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Originally Posted by sean r

another question how did paul butler qualify to play for the republic?

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His grandfather was Irish: http://foot.ie/threads/126140-Nolan-...=1#post1292410

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

The point of contention was that Alex Bruce was the last player to qualify through a Northern relative and that was before the rule-change so it hasn't been tested recently. I agree it's the only interpretation that makes sense but I'll only believe it when I see it.

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The rule has not changed, the wording is exactly the same as it was when Bruce qualified.
I thought there were a few others with Nordie ancestry who declared since Bruce?

What was Alan Kernaghan's story? Born in England, played for NI schoolboys, but how was he connected with us?

carl magnay's name flew around for a bit but I just think that was hysteria during the height of the NI fans' outrage re: duffy and kearns.

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Originally Posted by JGKyne

What was Alan Kernaghan's story? Born in England, played for NI schoolboys, but how was he connected with us?

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His grandparents on his father's side were Irish, so he qualified for us. The North didn't start using the grandparent rule until the mid nineties

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Originally Posted by boovidge

carl magnay's name flew around for a bit but I just think that was hysteria during the height of the NI fans' outrage re: duffy and kearns.

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At least I remember some young player with a Belfast/Nordie mum or gran who declared for us, there was picture in the paper of the proud smiling mum/gran,
blonde hair if that helps.

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Originally Posted by JGKyne

What was Alan Kernaghan's story? Born in England, played for NI schoolboys, but how was he connected with us?

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I seem to recall hearing that one grandfather was born in Northern Ireland before partition. So he claimed that at that time the island was one country which entitled him to play for the Republic.

As an aside, did anybody ever hear the story that his uncle (or grand-uncle) was Jackie Wright, the little baldy guy Benny Hill used to slap on the head? He was born in Belfast at any rate. I'm sure I read it in an interview/profile years ago but can't recall where...

So if one country changed his nationality criteria, that anyone born in brazil was entitled to nationality of that country, there could be a really good team produced...perhaps a separatist state in roscommon and we take all the brazillians who dont want to play for brazil. We could win the world cup.

Seriously though, thinking about that it does seem a little unfair.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

So if one country changed his nationality criteria, that anyone born in brazil was entitled to nationality of that country, there could be a really good team produced...perhaps a separatist state in roscommon and we take all the brazillians who dont want to play for brazil. We could win the world cup.

Seriously though, thinking about that it does seem a little unfair.

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That would be a bit ridiculous, but what's the relevance?

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

So if one country changed his nationality criteria, that anyone born in brazil was entitled to nationality of that country, there could be a really good team produced...perhaps a separatist state in roscommon and we take all the brazillians who dont want to play for brazil. We could win the world cup.

Seriously though, thinking about that it does seem a little unfair.

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Let's just keep the conversation specific to Ireland.

There's nothing unfair here. Eligibility is based on nationality not place of birth. Denying the right of Irish nationals to play for their country is unfair. FIFA proposed this to the FAI in 2007 (ie not to pick Irish nationals born in NI, which the FAI naturally rejected). FIFA then proposed that anyone born on the island of Ireland could play for which ever association they chose which the FAI accepted but the IFA rejected.

Ask yourself why the IFA reject that second proposal? Wasn't that the fairest proposal available to both parties - ie giving the individual player the choice to choose? Ask yourself what motivated the IFA to reject that proposal. Were they seeking fair play?