Lisbon Treaty

I can only speak for myself and to be honest I'm sick of repeating it:

Up until this point I've been very much pro-EU, in fact I'm a federalist. However Lisbon is about power for politicians, not on our behalf but on their behalf. They're all for it because it gives them - not us, not Ireland, not Europe, but them personally - more power, and that's why I'll be voting No.

It's not a signpost for us, it's a milestone for them, one where they take another chunk of our democratic power and pocket it for themselves. If they have their way, with Lisbon and their next treaty, I won't have a vote for much longer.

adam

Saw the other side's posters today.

All hollow stuff about the main selling point, the economy. :rolleyes: If you weren't aware how badly the economic situation is here, you'd be forgiven for thinking that at 9am on October 5th, there will be a sudden influx of 400,000 jobs coming out of nowhere.

The reality however is that, not one job will be created as a result of the government getting their way, the opposite will happen in fact. More will be lost once the savage budget kicks in in the New Year.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

I can only speak for myself and to be honest I'm sick of repeating it:

Up until this point I've been very much pro-EU, in fact I'm a federalist. However Lisbon is about power for politicians, not on our behalf but on their behalf. They're all for it because it gives them - not us, not Ireland, not Europe, but them personally - more power, and that's why I'll be voting No.

It's not a signpost for us, it's a milestone for them, one where they take another chunk of our democratic power and pocket it for themselves. If they have their way, with Lisbon and their next treaty, I won't have a vote for much longer.

adam

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How exactly does Lisbon make the EU more undemocratic?

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Originally Posted by mypost

Saw the other side's posters today.

All hollow stuff about the main selling point, the economy. :rolleyes: If you weren't aware how badly the economic situation is here, you'd be forgiven for thinking that at 9am on October 5th, there will be a sudden influx of 400,000 jobs coming out of nowhere.

The reality however is that, not one job will be created as a result of the government getting their way, the opposite will happen in fact. More will be lost once the savage budget kicks in in the New Year.

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I'll agree that the assumption that ratifying Lisbon will be good for the economy is a big guess. Its based purely on the historic fact that the EU has been the single biggest contributor to Ireland's growth. But the Government's forthcoming budget is irrelevant to Lisbon. So basically, I don't understand what you're talking about :confused:.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

How exactly does Lisbon make the EU more undemocratic?

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You quoted my post, did you not read it?

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Lisbon is about power for politicians, not on our behalf but on their behalf. They're all for it because it gives them - not us, not Ireland, not Europe, but them personally - more power

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More power for politicians doesn't necessarily mean more power for us. EU politicians have demonstrated over and over again, via this bloody constitution in particular, that they have little or no respect for direct democracy. Lisbon gives them more power to legislate withour our input. The next, which they will find easier to pass because of Lisbon, will make it easier again. A line has to be drawn in the sand.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

You quoted my post, did you not read it?

More power for politicians doesn't necessarily mean more power for us. EU politicians have demonstrated over and over again, via this bloody constitution in particular, that they have little or no respect for direct democracy. Lisbon gives them more power to legislate withour our input. The next, which they will find easier to pass because of Lisbon, will make it easier again. A line has to be drawn in the sand.

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I don't think Lisbon makes two balls of difference on MY individual democratic input. Does it make a difference to the democratic process in terms of Ireland as a collective? Yes, but
1) not in any way as widespread a manner as the scaremongerers are alleging
2) Ireland having less influence is NOT less democratic. Its more democratic if anything.

Perhaps if you posted real legislative examples of how Lisbon will result in the EU making material, practical decisions through less democratic means, then we can talk but without any concrete details you're as guilty as the pro side in not actually articulating what the real issues are.

ORA, I'm neither a politician not a PR hack, I have a job and a life, I don't have time to dig into the treaty every time I post here to quote section 3 paragraph a subsection ii. I researched Lisbon last time around and made my decision; and since nothing has changed in the treaty, and the reassurances we've been given aren't worth the paper they're partly written on, my vote won't change either. If you want facts, perhaps you should be talking to the people you're complaining about above. They certainly don't have any, as you've said yourself.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

How exactly does Lisbon make the EU more undemocratic?

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More power is being given to the Commission. If the laws put forth by the Commission are so mind-numbingly fantastic that we simply can't do without them, why can't the government implement them?

This would also provide us with a little cover so that if the EU try to implement a law that is either detrimental to Ireland or that the government simply don't agree with (think implementing the smoking ban in a country where nobody, not even the government, wants it) then they don't have to implement it.

And why should they have to? We're a separate nation, are we not? What does it matter to us that a Pole can smoke in his local?

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

2) Ireland having less influence is NOT less democratic. Its more democratic if anything.

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It's more democratic that we have a smaller vote in the running of the Union in itself, but it's incredibly undemocratic to hand over more power to legislate Irish Laws.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Perhaps if you posted real legislative examples of how Lisbon will result in the EU making material, practical decisions through less democratic means, then we can talk but without any concrete details you're as guilty as the pro side in not actually articulating what the real issues are.

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Lisbon isn't about today, tomorrow, next Tuesday. It's about twenty years down the line, when a completely different crop of politicians that you might trust a whole lot less come into the Commission.

Now as it happens I'd never trust the EU to legislate for Ireland, but if I did, I'd certainly not let the Commission off the leash to do as they wish!

If they're making progressive laws, that we agree with, we'll let them. And if not, we won't. What possible problem have you with this?

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Originally Posted by ped_ped

What possible problem have you with this?

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Based on recent and not so recent history I'll happily entrust legislative powers for the relevant areas of legislation to Europe rather than the Oireachtas.

You've mentioned the Commission's role, but neglected to mention the Parliament and Council's role in approving legislation? Preumably because it doesn't sit well with your point on democracy...

More bias from RTE.Another blantantly biased report giving a quote from the YES side while nothing from the NO:mad:.

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/106-01.html

That's about gas prices :)

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Originally Posted by eamo1

More bias from RTE.Another blantantly biased report giving a quote from the YES side while nothing from the NO:mad:.

http://www.rte.ie/aertel/106-01.html

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Cóir were too busy saying a decade of the rosary to keep Ireland abortion free to comment......

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

You've mentioned the Commission's role, but neglected to mention the Parliament and Council's role in approving legislation? Preumably because it doesn't sit well with your point on democracy...

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Can you or anyone else come up with one example where the Parliament didn't approve proposed legislation? There is no recognised Government, and no recognised opposition, so whatever is proposed by the Commission is automatically approved by the Parliament.

The EU Parliament is a 5-year holiday for failed/rejected politicians. The Parliament is a mere talking shop, where politicians don't declare expenses, make decisions on what's best for them rather than the people they represent, and basically live the life of Reilly in the plushest surroundings. It's the politicians at home who have to take the flak from their electorate, except his hands are tied as he is either a) in opposition, or b) unable to do anything due to Brussels legislation in place. 80% of our laws has to be compliant with Brussels, and 100% of them will have to be should Lisbon be overturned.

Among some of the more worrying concerns are the re-introduction of the death penalty, and the possible regulation of the internet and all mobile communications, together with Spanish-like passport regulations, in the name of "fighting terrorism". Anything that isn't covered in this treaty can be introduced at a future date, without EU citizens consent, as the treaty is self-amending. The level of power the Eurocrats stand to gain from this is astonishing, and very concerning. It's to us to stop them from getting it.

80% of our laws come from Brussels?

I don't think so, and neither do these guys: http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/200...e-from-the-eu/

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...253814199.html

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Dubliner Shane O’Neill has carved out a successful and lucrative career on the global stage as an investment banker and cable TV deal-maker.

He did so largely outside the gaze of the Irish media, but that could be about to change with O’Neill’s decision to step forward as a backer of the “We Belong” campaign for a Yes vote in the second Lisbon Treaty referendum.

Like it or not, O’Neill, the chief strategy officer with Colorado-based cable TV giant Liberty Global, will be in the line of fire of those on the No side and could find himself sucked into a messy debate that leaves many people cold.

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He will find himself sucked into the debate. First stop: foot.ie

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It was in late 2005 that I went to the Liberty board and advocated investment in Ireland and we bought Chorus and NTL.

“The idea of now having to go back to the board and explain to them the implications of a No vote to Lisbon would be a nightmare.

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You don't have to explain any implications sir. You just have to learn what the word "No" means. Assuming you do, get on with doing your job.

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“Board members in corporate America don’t have the time or the interest to understand what the implications of EU law are and what our status is.

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Well tell them then. America of course is a well known EU-member :D, and as the first port of the democratic call in the world, should have no problem respecting votes anywhere.

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They just want certainty.

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Certainty for who?

Whatever foreigners want should be irrelevant to an Irish voter voting in an Irish referendum on Ireland's future. I'd rather not have certainty for foreigners here, if it means my vote as an Irish citizen in an Irish vote is respected.

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We stubbed our toe in Argentina

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Another fullly-paid up EU state. :D

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“I’m a proud Irishman from top to toe.”

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So am I. Only I want what I believe is best for my country, whereas you and your business buddies don't want what's best for my country, but want what's best for them. (and of course the "don't give a damn about Ireland" Americans)

That's where we differ sir. And in a month's time, you might just understand what "no" means.

I think I will be most definitely voting YES, actually the more I think of it, its a huge shame we are still not under the power of westminister government, I don't think we're Fit too govern ourselves, are the Irish just too thick for self government? - the recent Fianna Fail, Developer, Banker triumvirate would suggest YES we are Thick.. so then whats the big fuss of being a Federal wing of a bigger European Government contolled by those clever Germans.

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

I think I will be most definitely voting YES, actually the more I think of it, its a huge shame we are still not under the power of westminister government, I don't think we're Fit too govern ourselves, are the Irish just too thick for self government? - the recent Fianna Fail, Developer, Banker triumvirate would suggest YES we are Thick.. so then whats the big fuss of being a Federal wing of a bigger European Government contolled by those clever Germans.

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Sounding a bit like that Apres Match German commentator.........."Hello Irish pixieheads".
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUYVXEf5EQ8

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Originally Posted by Reality Bites

I don't think we're Fit too govern ourselves, are the Irish just too thick for self government? - the recent Fianna Fail, Developer, Banker triumvirate would suggest YES we are Thick.. so then whats the big fuss of being a Federal wing of a bigger European Government contolled by those clever Germans.

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Do you seriously think Merkel, Sarkosy, Berlusconi et al care about how their decisions affect Billy O'Toole in Roscrea, or Biddy O'Flaherty in Roscommon? That's what our politicians are paid very well to care.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Only I want what I believe is best for my country,

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In fairness, I haven't yet met a voter (yes or no) who is actually planning to vote for the detriment of the country......

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Originally Posted by mypost

Do you seriously think Merkel, Sarkosy, Berlusconi et al care about how their decisions affect Billy O'Toole in Roscrea, or Biddy O'Flaherty in Roscommon? That's what our politicians are paid very well to care.

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Idealistcially, they may be but a lot of them would be in the same boat as Merkel, Sarkozy and Berlusconi - they are looking out for themselves first nd foremost.

If politicans really cared all about their constituents, then Bat O'Keefe and FF wouldn't be trying to rush in legislation that will deny thousands third-level education and the opposition would be vociferously condemning it.

Yes, but the people of his constituency can vote Batt out when the time comes around. Not the Commissioners.